Should Bush meet with Cindy Sheehan?

[outsider]

Good thoughts everyone.

I think it is a no win situation for Bush, and your posts support that conclusion.

If he meets with her, he will be seen as giving in, if he doesn't he will be seen as un-caring.

So all I can say about Cindy Sheehan is "You go girl."

I'm with you Skyhunter. She is doing what she believes in. Good for her.

 

[revelator]

However, you would be suprised how many 17 and 18 year olds don't know what they are getting into when they join the military, but that's off topic.

It's unfortunate that people should sign up for the military without first giving it much thought.

I'd consider the training worthwhile for the level of discipline and stamina one could build up. However I have no intention of getting myself killed at the whims of our so called leaders. I think Yossarian from Catch-22 said it best, that the enemy is whoever is putting you in a position where you'll be killed. Be it the opposing troops or your own leaders who are sending you to war.

 

[outsider]

She has the right to request.. he has the right to deny...

There is no benefit for Bushy to meet her anymore... he can't win.

 

[russ_watters]

So I guess I would be nicer than average to meet the crazy lady who lost her mind from grief.

Well, even if you were the most popular President in history, you'd still have tens of millions of people thinking you were doing a bad job. Grant one an audience and I think you'd soon find the line at your office door going down the hall, out the front door, down route 50, and into Baltimore.

 

[Smurf]

That only seems to apply to American presidents.

 

[edward]

She has the right to request.. he has the right to deny...

There is no benefit for Bushy to meet her anymore... he can't win.

sorry off topic

He can't win in Iraq either. The outcome was cast in stone the second we dropped the first bomb.

 

[SOS2008]

Aug. 18th there were 1,627 vigils in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. Well over 100,000 attended, from Alaska to Florida, Maine to Mississippi, Oregon to South Carolina and New York to Texas. Now, the Bush administration has launched a public relations tour of the country to convince the public that things aren't going so badly in Iraq.

Bush: War protesters wrong -
Aug. 23: President Bush acknowledged Iraq war protests but questioned whether the mother who has become the lightning rod for the anti-war group has much of a following. NBC's David Gregory reports.

Then there is the recent poll that showed 90% of Americans believe in the right to protest the war. That may seem good, but that means 10% don't believe in freedom of speech! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9084651/

Hmm...would that be the same group of Bush supporters the police had to restrain from attacking another group of people because they thought the group was protesting the war?

 

[TRCSF]

Hmm...would that be the same group of Bush supporters the police had to restrain from attacking another group of people because they thought the group was protesting the war?

LOL. Well I guess the guy that supported the troops by running over the memorial was more than a little conflicted.

 

[pattylou]

Three things.

1/ Losing a kid increases your chance of divorce astronomically. I've been through it, did the group support, know the people who lost their kids any number of ways. Sheehan's divorce is about her son dying, and how she and her husband are two crumbling walls that can't hold one another up.


2/ bush's solution is as clear as the nose on his face. He *doesn't* meet with her personally, but rather he makes an appropriate address. Not a war mongering address. An address that shows his *humanity* and his reaction to the *death* that is occurring as a result of his agenda. He needs to say Casey's name. This is not rocket science. Sheehan may not forgive him but he will do a hell of a lot for public opinion if he shows that he is not a callous idiot who can't even say "Casey."

My husband disagrees. He thinks this will erode the core supporters who like that Bush is a "straight shooter" and is "the devil that they know" instead of the devil they don't.

3/ The Pruett development was the height of stupidity. Tammy says:

"And I guess you couldn't ask for a better way of life than giving it for something that you believe in."

And this seems damn applicable to any number of suicide bombers.

bush kisses her. He stands up with her and lauds her. The message is loud and clear: "There is only one kind of patriotism. Screw 'united we stand' and screw the people who oppose the war. Pruett is the sort of mom we want for our country. Pacifists "need not apply."

If Pruett loses a kid, she may still support Bush but I guarantee her tone will change.
She's in denial now, and if she buried a child she'd be in *hell.*

To any parents out there: Your mileage may vary. I think I understand Sheehan, and what she's going through. I could be wrong - But I think I get it.

 

[Kerrie]

I think it would be good for Bush to meet with her, and it would also put a lot more respect out there for him for those who don't support his decision making. Him avoiding her (IMO) just compounds "wussy" image he holds among many. He can still vocalize his decision to stay in Iraq, but acknowledging her especially would be acknowledging all of the pain that many are enduring do to this war that most feel is unnecessary and unfounded.

 

[1123581321]

who cares about cindy, let her make a fool out of her self.
that's all i have to say about that.

fibonacci

 

[pattylou]

I'll tell you something. When your kid dies, you don't care if you look like a fool or not. The opinion you, fibonacci, express here ... means squat on this issue, to someone like Cindy, compared to her knowing that her son is OK and/or that there was purpose in his death.

She's making damn sure his life counts as much as possible, and you'd do the same. You have no idea the crusades parents take in these circumstances.

Here's one question to give you some persopective: Who of the 6 billion people on this planet will say his name ... if his *mother* doesn't?

Bush had to *find* Pruett. I guarantee you Pruett isn't 1/20th as motivated to promote her interests, as Sheehan.

Life gets more interesting. Wait and see. I expect the people who think Cindy looks 'foolish' are the people who haven't lived through much heartache.

-Patty, Rachel's mom (And you'd never know her name, if I didn't tell you it. No one else is likely to take the time.)

 

[JamesU]

her child died! do you think she cares that she's making a fool out of herself?! I think that the president should meet with her, she could represent all the greiving parents. and the only reason he doesn't is because he can't think of a good enough answer to her questions.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

her child died! do you think she cares that she's making a fool out of herself?! I think that the president should meet with her, she could represent all the greiving parents. and the only reason he doesn't is because he can't think of a good enough answer to her questions.

The point is that he already met with her and already spoke with her. She's looking for a rematch.

 

[pattylou]

Well, from the humanistic perspective, I'd guess that in that first meeting she was a bit numb from Casey's death. She hadn't seen DSM, etc, yet. She may not have known what to expect from Bush, and may have naively expected that the meeting would give her some sense of pride, or closure, or meaning.

I'd further guess that the meeting was less than she hoped (have you ever heard his comments in these cases? I'll dig some up.)

Here's the first hit on: Bush address "your loved ones" (that's one of his favorite phrases in these matters.) This is from his March 2003 adress to the nation. Casey was enlisted, but not sent over yet, if I recall correctly.

I know that the families of our military are praying that all those who serve will return safely and soon. Millions of Americans are praying with you for the safety of your loved ones and for the protection of the innocent. For your sacrifice, you have the gratitude and respect of the American people. And you can know that our forces will be coming home as soon as their work is done.

Our nation enters this conflict reluctantly -- yet, our purpose is sure. The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder. We will meet that threat now, with our Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and Marines, so that we do not have to meet it later with armies of fire fighters and police and doctors on the streets of our cities.

This isn't the most illustrative quote for how he responds to grieving families, but if I find somethin more appropriate I'll add it. In the meantime, it will do --- Do you see (1) how at the time, he gave Casey's choice *purpose*? (freeing the innocent, poor Iraqis.) To Cindy, that may have been something worth getting behind. Do you also see the (2) deceptions that have since come to light? (weapons of mass murder). *THAT* is the basis of her desire for another meeting with Bush.

I think the smoking man was right. What's missing in these calculated discussions of war games, is the emotional human element. Following the chronology of Casey's death and the news about no WMD, intelligence fixing etc, and how this all lines up chronologically with Cindy's normal stages of grief after profound loss, Cindy's actions are human, and a mother's actions - not a calculated "second match" of some sort.

If Bush were to *respond* as fellow human being, the whole thing would play out differently. (Not too much chance of that.)

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Do you see (1) how at the time, he gave Casey's choice *purpose*? (freeing the innocent, poor Iraqis.) To Cindy, that may have been something worth getting behind. Do you also see the (2) deceptions that have since come to light? (weapons of mass murder). *THAT* is the basis of her desire for another meeting with Bush.

I'm sure there are people all over the world that want to see Bush about these things and the majority of them won't even get to talk to him once let alone twice. What does she have to offer the situation that warrents a second meeting with the President? Don't you think she could better spend her energy doing something else?

Cindy's actions are human, and a mother's actions - not a calculated "second match" of some sort.

I wasn't meaning my last statement that way. I was just pointing out to yomamma that he had already talked to her and she wants to talk to him again.

 

[pattylou]

What does she have to offer the situation that warrents a second meeting with the President? Don't you think she could better spend her energy doing something else?

Well, maybe. But she seems to have started something amazing with the approach she has used. (Over 22000 news articles on "sheehan" just now.) So, I think she probably couldn't "do something better" with her energies, another way, at least not from her perspective.

Maybe she feels that this movement is ultimately what will give meaning to Casey's death, even though she originally hoped for a meeting.

I wonder if she would leave Camp Casey now, if Bush *did* meet with her. Hmmm. Interesting.

 

[Skyhunter]

Well, maybe. But she seems to have started something amazing with the approach she has used. (Over 22000 news articles on "sheehan" just now.) So, I think she probably couldn't "do something better" with her energies, another way, at least not from her perspective.

Maybe she feels that this movement is ultimately what will give meaning to Casey's death, even though she originally hoped for a meeting.

I wonder if she would leave Camp Casey now, if Bush *did* meet with her. Hmmm. Interesting.

I don't think she really had any expectations. I think that when he said the 19 guardsmen died for a noble cause that she could not contain her anger, so she decided to go to Crawford and confront him.

Bush has so divided this country that people were ready to join her.

Have I mentioned before how I sincerely believe that he is the worst president in history, because of the damage he has done?

And there is not even a close second!

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Well, maybe. But she seems to have started something amazing with the approach she has used. (Over 22000 news articles on "sheehan" just now.) So, I think she probably couldn't "do something better" with her energies, another way, at least not from her perspective.

Maybe she feels that this movement is ultimately what will give meaning to Casey's death, even though she originally hoped for a meeting.

I wonder if she would leave Camp Casey now, if Bush *did* meet with her. Hmmm. Interesting.

Plenty of articles about her in the news but what exactly is it accomplishing? Does it give Bush a worse name than he already has? Does it get people's attention? Now what is she going to do with those things? With the clout that she has gained I'm sure she could do quite a bit. So what is she doing aside from keeping her name in the papers?
I just scanned her site and I don't see her doing anything but these vigils. Does she give any of the money people donate to her to anything but her campaign against Bush? Has she helped out other grieving parents aside from giving them something to keep their mind off the death of their children? Since she was so angry about the president using her son's name in his defense of the war why do her people have a problem with parents of soldiers whose names she is using for her war wanting her not to use those names any more?

 

[pattylou]

It legitimizes opposition in a way that wasn't present before.

Thousands of people attending vigils - this starts to become something politicians feel they can make a stand on.

You're asking for tangibles, I'm talking trends. Currently the 'tangibles' are the news articles, which demonstrate the 'trend' she has played a part in catalyzing. It is possible that additional tangibles (politicians becoming more vocal against the war as they perceive their constituency allowing or wishing for such opposition) will become apparent. If politicians become vocal enough, it may affect the "timetable" of withdrawal. It may affect our choices WRT Iran, Syria, NK.

Or, it may not. But an upswelling of war opposition is what we didn't have before, and do seem to be getting, now.

 

[Informal Logic]

It legitimizes opposition in a way that wasn't present before.

Thousands of people attending vigils - this starts to become something politicians feel they can make a stand on.

You're asking for tangibles, I'm talking trends. Currently the 'tangibles' are the news articles, which demonstrate the 'trend' she has played a part in catalyzing. It is possible that additional tangibles (politicians becoming more vocal against the war as they perceive their constituency allowing or wishing for such opposition) will become apparent. If politicians become vocal enough, it may affect the "timetable" of withdrawal. It may affect our choices WRT Iran, Syria, NK.

Or, it may not. But an upswelling of war opposition is what we didn't have before, and do seem to be getting, now.

Approximately 40% of Americans have always opposed the invasion of Iraq. They have tried to protest, but have been suppressed as unpatriotic. Now that the Independents and even some Republicans are against the war as well, there are enough numbers to get the media and politicians on board. You will note that the vigils are peaceful, and along with the crosses (religious symbolism) there are American flags (nationalism) that show the fundamentalists and neocons do not have a corner on God and patriotism. It just may help unify our country, which is badly needed because of divisions created by Bush and his regime.

In the meantime, I hope Bush will continue his negative sell tactics against Cindy and anti war activists. It makes him look as ugly as he really is. And I hope people like fib remain oblivious to the changing of the guard.

 

[Skyhunter]

I think that Cindy is starting something.

What Noble Cause Did Casey Sheehan Die For?
"Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation. No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam."
- Iraqi Constitution supported by Iran-backed Shiites and the Bush Administration (but opposed by Sunni leaders)

"Fortunately, after years of effort and expectations in Iraq, an Islamic state has come to power and the constitution has been established on the basis of Islamic precepts. We must congratulate the Iraqi people and authorities for this victory."
- Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati, head of Iran's powerful ultra-conservative Guardian Council

"This is the future of the new Iraqi government - it will be in the hands of the clerics. I wanted Iraqi women to be free, to be able to talk freely and to able to move around. I am not going to stay here."
- Dr. Raja Kuzai, an obstetrician and secular Shiite member of the Assembly who met President Bush in the White House in November 2003.

Resolution of Inquiry into Bush Lies Gains Momentum
There are now 53 co-sponsors on Barbara Lee's Resolution of Inquiry into the Downing Street Memos, including one Republican member of the International Relations Committee, Jim Leach. If your Representative isn't on this list yet, please call their D.C. office (202-224-3121) and ask to speak to the Legislative Director. Ask why they haven't cosponsored HRes375, and then report back to us. A vote in committee will come between Sept. 6 and Sept. 16.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/902

"Bring the Troops Home Now" Bus Tour Begins August 31
On August 31st, the last day of the encampment, the Bring Them Home Now Tour will launch three buses from Crawford, Texas, each carrying military and Gold Star families, veterans of the Iraq War and veterans of previous wars. These buses will travel different routes across the country, converging in Washington, DC on September 21, for the United for Peace and Justice Mobilization September 24th-26th. From George Bush's doorstep to communities along the way, we demand that:
* Elected Representatives Decide Now to Bring the Troops Home
* We Take Care of Them When They Get Here
* We Never Again Send Our Loved Ones to War Based on Lies!
http://www.bringthemhomenowtour.org/

Why Aren't Congress's Kids Fighting in Iraq?

Dear Senator/Representative,
If you support the War in Iraq, why aren't you or your children or your grandchildren fighting there?
The Army is short of soldiers because of the Iraq War disaster. This
shortage has put our national security in danger throughout the world.
Your family can help fix the problem that you created by supporting the Iraq War disaster.
As your constituent, I will continue to ask this question until you call for the withdrawal of America's children from Iraq.
http://www.democrats.com/peoplesemailnetwork/57

Maybe the Democrats are starting to get a pair. About time, I am so sick of Republocratic rule. We could really use an opposition party in this country.

 

[1123581321]

do you see anyone else doing what she is doing? no. she is just dishonoring the memory of her child, who i have great respect for, but somehow i don't care about her because she has to be an a$$ about it. if she would quietly protest the war, then people would still feel sorry for her and respect her right to protest. she had her meeting, most people don't even get a meeting, she should be happy that she got one. besides, what does she hope to accomplish? she is in no position to change the president. one citizen holds very little power.

her husband is divorcing her after 20 or so years, her kids are asking her to come home, she should be spending her time with her living family and morning the death of her son, not camping in texas waiting for a meeting that won't come.

fibonacci

 

[SOS2008]

I think that Cindy is starting something. ...Maybe the Democrats are starting to get a pair. About time, I am so sick of Republocratic rule. We could really use an opposition party in this country.

Excellent information. Though I call it Repugnantcan rule, but that works too.

do you see anyone else doing what she is doing? no. she is just dishonoring the memory of her child, who i have great respect for, but somehow i don't care about her because she has to be an a$$ about it. if she would quietly protest the war, then people would still feel sorry for her and respect her right to protest. she had her meeting, most people don't even get a meeting, she should be happy that she got one. besides, what does she hope to accomplish? she is in no position to change the president. one citizen holds very little power.

her husband is divorcing her after 20 or so years, her kids are asking her to come home, she should be spending her time with her living family and morning the death of her son, not camping in texas waiting for a meeting that won't come.

fibonacci

Umm...did you read any of the posts above? Many other Americans who have lost loved ones in Iraq have joined the movement. Cindy is honoring her child--you got it backwards. The protests/vigils are peaceful, don't you pay attention to the news? You are right about one thing--no one can change the president. Like you, he has his head in...the sand.

 

[Skyhunter]

do you see anyone else doing what she is doing? no. she is just dishonoring the memory of her child, who i have great respect for, but somehow i don't care about her because she has to be an a$$ about it. if she would quietly protest the war, then people would still feel sorry for her and respect her right to protest. she had her meeting, most people don't even get a meeting, she should be happy that she got one. besides, what does she hope to accomplish? she is in no position to change the president. one citizen holds very little power.

her husband is divorcing her after 20 or so years, her kids are asking her to come home, she should be spending her time with her living family and morning the death of her son, not camping in texas waiting for a meeting that won't come.

fibonacci

And what is the purpose of a quiet protest?
Please say you are joking.

 

[pattylou]

Maybe she feels that this movement is ultimately what will give meaning to Casey's death, even though she originally hoped for a meeting.

Sheehan Glad Bush Didn't Meet With Her

By ANGELA K. BROWN
The Associated Press
Tuesday, August 30, 2005; 11:33 PM

CRAWFORD, Texas -- A woman who led an anti-war protest for nearly a month near President Bush's ranch said Tuesday that she's glad Bush never showed up to discuss her son's death in Iraq, saying the president's absence "galvanized the peace movement."

Cindy Sheehan's comments came as war protesters packed up their campsite near the ranch and prepared to leave Tuesday for a three-week bus tour.

"I look back on it, and I am very, very, very grateful he did not meet with me, because we have sparked and galvanized the peace movement," Sheehan told The Associated Press. "If he'd met with me, then I would have gone home, and it would have ended there."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/30/AR2005083001592.html

Like Informal Logic said:

In the meantime, I hope Bush will continue his negative sell tactics against Cindy and anti war activists. It makes him look as ugly as he really is. And I hope people like fib remain oblivious to the changing of the guard.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

"If he'd met with me, then I would have gone home, and it would have ended there."

So then this is/was about her and getting her meeting? If she got it she would have just gone home and been done with it? Doesn't sound like she's terribly dedicated to a cause really. The things it seems that hurt her position in some people's eyes is that she comes off as selfish and self promoting. She doesn't seem to give much reason to believe otherwise.

 

[pattylou]

So then this is/was about her and getting her meeting? If she got it she would have just gone home and been done with it? Doesn't sound like she's terribly dedicated to a cause really. The things it seems that hurt her position in some people's eyes is that she comes off as selfish and self promoting. She doesn't seem to give much reason to believe otherwise.

It wasn't about a cause, no. It was about her screaming "Why did my kid die?!"

That a movement has grown out of it probably makes her think she now has a reason, in retrospect, for why her kid died.

You can say it's nuts, if you want, but that's how it goes. When your kid dies, you feel like you're facing a mountain that you have to tunnel through, and your only tool is a spoon.

Was it selfish? In the sense that she is surviving one day at a time, any way she can, sure. Was it also selfless? In the sense that she feels the way she does because of her love for her child, with whom mothers are completely tied up as a matter of course, yes - it was also selfless.

 

[1123581321]

Let me put it this way:
President Bush did not kill her son.
Her son signed up, he was not drafted.
He knew what could happen to him, but he still went.
He was mature enough to make his own decision, he was not "conned" into the millitary.
He sacrificed his life for his country.
He did not have to go.
Do you understand?
She still has the right to protest, but her protest makes no sence.

Mehercule!

 

[edward]

Let me put it this way:
President Bush did not kill her son.

No but he sent him to die for oil.

Her son signed up, he was not drafted.

There is no draft, hasn't been one for years.

He knew what could happen to him, but he still went.

He was a mechanic, he did not have a combat MOS.

He was mature enough to make his own decision, he was not "conned" into the millitary.

Have you talked to a recruiter lately?

He sacrificed his life for his country.

He sacrificed his life so you can buy gasoline.

He did not have to go.

Even as a mechanic he had no choice but to go.

Do you understand?

Do you understand?

She still has the right to protest, but her protest makes no sence.

What do you know about losing a son in a war that is about oil??

 

[Skyhunter]

So then this is/was about her and getting her meeting? If she got it she would have just gone home and been done with it? Doesn't sound like she's terribly dedicated to a cause really. The things it seems that hurt her position in some people's eyes is that she comes off as selfish and self promoting. She doesn't seem to give much reason to believe otherwise.

If Bush had met with her it could have taken away her anger and defused the situation. I think she is glad he didn't because she has sparked an anti-war movement.

Good for her.

 

[russ_watters]

So then this is/was about her and getting her meeting? If she got it she would have just gone home and been done with it? Doesn't sound like she's terribly dedicated to a cause really. The things it seems that hurt her position in some people's eyes is that she comes off as selfish and self promoting. She doesn't seem to give much reason to believe otherwise.

Since she did have a kid die, as pattylou said, she gets a free pass on irrational and selfish behavior. I find no fault in anything she did.

What I do fault in is those who exploited her and co-opted her grief for their own benefit.

 

[1123581321]

No but he sent him to die for oil.



There is no draft, hasn't been one for years.



He was a mechanic, he did not have a combat MOS.



Have you talked to a recruiter lately?



He sacrificed his life so you can buy gasoline.



Even as a mechanic he had no choice but to go.



Do you understand?



What do you know about losing a son in a war that is about oil??

i don't want to hear your war for oil bull****.

even if he was a mechanic, they still teach him how to kill in basic.

actually, yes, and you aren't conned into it. there actually are a lot of benefits one can get for signing up. i think it is you who needs to be enlightened.

again, sick of the oil bull.

 

[Astronuc]

Should Bush meet with Cindy Sheehan?

Not at the moment, he needs to be in New Orleans.

Perhaps later. I think Bush should personally meet with all the families whose sons and daughters were killed or severely wounded.

He made the decision - he put them in harms way.

 

[alexandra]

It wasn't about a cause, no. It was about her screaming "Why did my kid die?!"

That a movement has grown out of it probably makes her think she now has a reason, in retrospect, for why her kid died.

You can say it's nuts, if you want, but that's how it goes. When your kid dies, you feel like you're facing a mountain that you have to tunnel through, and your only tool is a spoon.

Was it selfish? In the sense that she is surviving one day at a time, any way she can, sure. Was it also selfless? In the sense that she feels the way she does because of her love for her child, with whom mothers are completely tied up as a matter of course, yes - it was also selfless.

Yep - you obviously know what you are talking about, pattylou. Boy, they would *not* like to see what huge movements I would mobilise against them if they killed *my* son in their imperialist war! No, surely they would not want to unleash that demon. But I have taught my son well, and unless there is conscription...