Should Classic Literature Be Altered for Modern Sensibilities?

[nismaratwork]

Say, should we change the ending of books too, so that when kids are saddened by them we can avoid that terrible trauma?

****... I say get copies of The Brothers Grimm IN THE ORIGINAL GERMAN and force it down kid's throats from birth. It's a tough world, and if parents can't help their child navigate the worlds of words, how will they help them navigate LIFE?!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What I can't get over is that I agree wholeheartedly with both Ivan Seeking and turbo-1 in this thread

See how great it is here. Already we're getting you straightened out.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That's true, but a 7-year-old reading *any* literature is going to be hearing a different story than a 17-year-old reading the same book. The subversive message resonates with American ideals of rugged individualism; the 17-year-old is a ripe audience for that. But it would likely be lost on a 7-year-old...he just likes the story line.

Do you agree that they have no business calling such a modified version, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn?

 

[nismaratwork]

See how great it is here. Already we're getting you straightened out.

"No more of that talk or I'll put the f****** leeches on you, understand?" You'll scare the boy!

 

[nismaratwork]

Do you agree that they have no business calling such a modified version, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn?

They should call it, 'A Profile In Cowardice: A Publishers Story', or, How Greed Ate This Book'

 

[Chi Meson]

It's fine that you disagree, but could you explain why please. What benefit does teaching the watered-down version have and is it worth the risk of the students never getting their mis-learnings corrected?

I believe that the word in question is not the lesson of the book. The moment that Huck went into the cabin of the raft to "humble himself" is one of the most important moments in American literature. I think that the lesson of that moment can and should be taught to 5th graders. The book can and should be returned to in high school when the maturity of the students, and hopefully the training of the teachers, can lead the discussion through the historical significance with its full impact.

Please believe me that I do think the book should not be altered, but if there is going to be a choice between teaching the book without the word, and ignoring the book completely, then ...

It's either that or show them the movie, which is far more watered down.

 

[lisab]

Do you agree that they have no business calling such a modified version, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn?

Absolutely, that's entirely appropriate.

How about, "Huck And His Friends Have Fun"?

 

[nismaratwork]

Absolutely, that's entirely appropriate.

How about, "Huck And His Friends Have Fun"?

I think we should refer to Jim as, "Jim The Barber", or "My friend Jim". Does the book just say, ****** Jim? Does it say "N Word Jim"? Either of those is just a cowardly version of saying the word, and if it's gone entirely I call even more foul... and this is foul.


Taught again in high-school... because kids need more added crap in their curriculum, solely because some parents have boo-boos on their feelings? No thanks.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I believe that the word in question is not the lesson of the book. The moment that Huck went into the cabin of the raft to "humble himself" is one of the most important moments in American literature. I think that the lesson of that moment can and should be taught to 5th graders. The book can and should be returned to in high school when the maturity of the students, and hopefully the training of the teachers, can lead the discussion through the historical significance with its full impact.

Please believe me that I do think the book should not be altered, but if there is going to be a choice between teaching the book without the word, and ignoring the book completely, then ...

It's either that or show them the movie, which is far more watered down.

Do you really believe that the same book would be taught twice? That seems highly unlikely to me. And by teaching the watered down version first, you probably all but guarantee that the original will never be read. It seems to me that the greatest value would be found in reading the original version once when it is age appropriate.

Why the big rush to water down classic works? What is so important about teaching this in the 5th grade?

 

[nismaratwork]

Do you really believe that the same book would be taught twice. That seems highly unlikely to me. And by teaching the watered down version first, you probably all but guarantee that the original will never be read. It seems to me that the greatest value would be found in reading the original version once.

...And consider the pitch: "Oh yeah, you've read this book... um... the new one is the same, of course with a much greater and different impact, but to you as someone in school... the difference is a couple hundred uses of the word in question. So, you COULD just pretend to read it, and then imagine that every time we put a unicorn farting a smiley face, it's 'the n word'."

Wow, next I'll sell hair-suits and penis-eating eels...

 

[lisab]

Do you really believe that the same book would be taught twice? That seems highly unlikely to me. And by teaching the watered down version first, you probably all but guarantee that the original will never be read. It seems to me that the greatest value would be found in reading the original version once when it is age appropriate.

Why the big rush to water down classic works? What is so important about teaching this in the 5th grade?

Having an edited version available in an elementary school library doesn't mean the original can't be read in high school.

What's the rush...well, maybe Reader's Digest Condensed Books is trying to indoctrinate new customers while they're still young .

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Having an edited version available in an elementary school library doesn't mean the original can't be read in high school.

No, I am just saying that the education system doesn't normally work that way. With all of the potential material to cover, no one teaches the same thing twice. The first thing that would happen is that board members would argue that Huck Finn was already taught in the 5th grade, so there is no need to teach it again..

What's the rush...well, maybe Reader's Digest Condensed Books is trying to indoctrinate new customers while they're still young .

Seriously, why modify great works just to teach them to an audience too young to fully appreciate them? This seems an artificial constraint and an unjustified goal, esp when considering the potential damage done - that no one reads the original.

I would add that once the door has been opened, there is nothing to stop the publisher from making additional modifications.

Why has no one answered my question? Should the modified version still be called by the original name? I say it's not the same book, so they have no business using the original title or citing Twain as the author. This is not what Twain had published.

[Sorry, lisab did.]

 

[nismaratwork]

I realize this is very 'un-PF'... but um... maybe people just don't like being reminded of racism, on all sides of the issue, and school boards are filled with idiots and moral cowards?

Just a thought.

 

[Proton Soup]

Absolutely, that's entirely appropriate.

How about, "Huck And His Friends Have Fun"?

i think i like this idea best. derivative works that are age-appropriate would be fine in elementary school.

for high school students, i do find it highly offensive, tho. and representing a censored version as the original is also offensive, in any context.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Does the book just say, ****** Jim? Does it say "N Word Jim"?

As I understand it, they just replaced each instance with the word 'slave'.

 

[lisab]

No, I am just saying that the education system doesn't normally work that way. With all of the potential material to cover, no one teaches the same thing twice. The first thing that would happen is that board members would argue that Huck Finn was already taught in the 5th grade, so there is no need to teach it again..



Seriously, why modify great works just to teach them to an audience too young to fully appreciate them? This seems an artificial constraint and an unjustified goal, esp when considering the potential damage done - that no one reads the original.

I would add that once the door has been opened, there is nothing to stop the publisher from making additional modifications.

Why has no one answered my question? Should the modified version still be called by the original name? I say it's not the same book, so they have no business using the original title or citing Twain as the author. This is not what Twain had published.

[Sorry, lisab did.]

I agree the the *best* way to learn from literature is to be exposed to it when you're mature and open-minded enough to 'get' it.

But I don't think a person is necessarily ruined by early exposure. For example, I used to watch "Rocky & Bullwinkle" as a young kid, and I liked it on a little-kid level. I saw it again as an adult and got a lot more out of it...all the political nuance, the double entendres...great stuff!

Had I watched a cleaned-up version as a kid, it wouldn't have mattered at all. The more 'advanced' stuff went over my head anyway.

Yeah...I just kinda equated 'Huck Finn' with 'Rocky & Bullwinkle'...

 

[nismaratwork]

As I understand it, they just replaced each instance with the word 'slave'.

Wow... so... how long until "slave" becomes the next racial slur, or ironic meme?

I feel badly for these kids, but it's amusing that this is a straight substitution cipher.

 

[nismaratwork]

I agree the the *best* way to learn from literature is to be exposed to it when you're mature and open-minded enough to 'get' it.

But I don't think a person is necessarily ruined by early exposure. For example, I used to watch "Rocky & Bullwinkle" as a young kid, and I liked it on a little-kid level. I saw it again as an adult and got a lot more out of it...all the political nuance, the double entendres...great stuff!

Had I watched a cleaned-up version as a kid, it wouldn't have mattered at all. The more 'advanced' stuff went over my head anyway.

Yeah...I just kinda equated 'Huck Finn' with 'Rocky & Bullwinkle'...

Bugs Bunny the tranny.

Need I say more? It's as though the concept of, "appeals on multiple levels" is utterly lost on people now.

 

[rootX]

... it!

...

Two objections raised so far are:

Ivan:

Seriously, why modify great works just to teach them to an audience too young to fully appreciate them? This seems an artificial constraint and an unjustified goal, esp when considering the potential damage done - that no one reads the original.

Children can read the original when they understand the history and are mature enough to appreciate the great work. We are only talking about elementary school children.

Russ:

And what are we to do - have them read it once in elementary school to get the superficial parts of the story then again in high school to get more out of it?

That depends on the objectives of elementary and high school education. While you will be reading the same book, the purpose of reading the book will be different.

I don't care if elementary children come out without appreciating any great work. What important is they come out with good characters (this can be achieved without reading Huck Finn or reading modified version of Huck Finn). While for high school students, it is important that they understand history and appreciate great works.

 

[K^2]

This is silly. Words have to be taken in context. Are they also going to start publishing edited English-Latin dictionaries with the n-word taken out? Replacing it with maybe a Latin equivalent of a "very dark shade of gray"?

 

[AlephZero]

I think we should refer to Jim as, "Jim The Barber", or "My friend Jim". Does the book just say, ****** Jim? Does it say "N Word Jim"? Either of those is just a cowardly version of saying the word, and if it's gone entirely I call even more foul... and this is foul.

According to a comment column in today's (UK) Financial Times newspaper, the N word is replaced by "slave" throughout, and (curiouser and curiouser) "injun" is also replaced by "indian".

Looking from the this side of the pond, if those changes are a fair reflection of the attitudes of those involved, I may be (very slightly) depressed, but I can't honestly say I'm surprised.

No surprise that the FT column was totally against this sort of nonsense, as am I.

For what it's worth, I read the book when I was about 9 or 10. At that time in my life I had probably never even seen a black person except in a photograph, but the book's message was clear enough for this 9-year-old to understand it.

 

[nismaratwork]

According to a comment column in today's (UK) Financial Times newspaper, the N word is replaced by "slave" throughout, and (curiouser and curiouser) "injun" is also replaced by "indian".

Looking from the this side of the pond, if those changes are a fair reflection of the attitudes of those involved, I may be (very slightly) depressed, but I can't honestly say I'm surprised.

No surprise that the FT column was totally against this sort of nonsense, as am I.

For what it's worth, I read the book when I was about 9 or 10. At that time in my life I had probably never even seen a black person except in a photograph, but the book's message was clear enough for this 9-year-old to understand it.

I was around the same age, although I had a more mixed experience growing up I think, and I was able to get the point as well. I'm always dissapointed by the degree to which people underestimate the reasoning abilities of children, and overestimate their own teaching competence.

 

[DanP]

I don't agree with changing the work of any writer for the sake of political correctness. Especially in it's native country. I am not blaming the publisher they agree to those changes,
they are most likely motivated by economical factors. They seen an opportunity and seized it.

I'm blaming the bureaucrats for this. In their stupid arrogance and self-righteous ways, they think they can butcher the work of a genius like Twain in the name of morale. They can't. What those bureaucrats deserve is what Twain said it himself:

Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot.

That being said, when I was a teenager I've read Tom Sawyer & Huck Finn books countless times. Some things where lost in translation. And not because a bad translation. For example we don't have a word in Romanian language to carry the offensive payload of the word cool person. But still , I enjoyed the plot as I think any youngster in this world did. It sparked my imagination.

It wasn't till my late 20s when I've read his work in English and I was more familiar with the problems of the American South, their culture of honor, slavery, American Civil War and so on that I could fully appreciate those books.

I don't believe 10 years old would loose too much by reading a revisionist book. But this is not the issue, of how much a kid would lose. The issue is that way to often ppl on high horses have the audacity to pretend they know better. That they have the right to butcher a work of art. Their blindness to their own history.

 

[nismaratwork]

I don't agree with changing the work of any writer for the sake of political correctness. Especially in it's native country. I am not blaming the publisher they agree to those changes,
they are most likely motivated by economical factors. They seen an opportunity and seized it.

I'm blaming the bureaucrats for this. In their stupid arrogance and self-righteous ways, they think they can butcher the work of a genius like Twain in the name of morale. They can't. What those bureaucrats deserve is what Twain said it himself:




That being said, when I was a teenager I've read Tom Sawyer & Huck Finn books countless times. Some things where lost in translation. And not because a bad translation. For example we don't have a word in Romanian language to carry the offensive payload of the word cool person. But still , I enjoyed the plot as I think any youngster in this world did. It sparked my imagination.

It wasn't till my late 20s when I've read his work in English and I was more familiar with the problems of the American South, their culture of honor, slavery, American Civil War and so on that I could fully appreciate those books.

I don't believe 10 years old would loose too much by reading a revisionist book. But this is not the issue, of how much a kid would lose. The issue is that way to often ppl on high horses have the audacity to pretend they know better. That they have the right to butcher a work of art. Their blindness to their own history.

I can't believe that I'm throwing you this bone, but for conservatives this is really some of the worst of the liberal (in the R dirty-word sense) legacy of the last few decades. A sensitivity so pointless, and a group of bureaucrats so whipped, that we, "butcher a work of art."

 

[lisab]

I don't believe 10 years old would loose too much by reading a revisionist book. But this is not the issue, of how much a kid would lose. The issue is that way to often ppl on high horses have the audacity to pretend they know better. That they have the right to butcher a work of art. Their blindness to their own history.

I think that's an excellent point. It won't necessarily harm kids to read an edited version, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

[nismaratwork]

I think that's an excellent point. It won't necessarily harm kids to read an edited version, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Sure, it's just another of many tiny deprivations that add up to our modern lad and lass.

 

[mugaliens]

Having read only a few of the responses, please allow me to say that I've received private e-mails from three people, all of African-American descent, who say:

"Let it ride."

I don't where that come's from, but it makes sense.

So, Let it ride.

 

[mugaliens]

Huck Finn isn't an appropriate book for young children, even without the n-word. If Mark Twain were alive today, I doubt he'd be happy with the people changing his book.

As my ten-year-old son would say... WWSHSHPSHSHPPP! (it's a whip stricking against a backstop).

Meaning, he gets it as a 10-year old, and knows FULL WELL the racial issues and is well on his way towards understanding the political issues.

Let's not repeat WWII, people. In fact, let's not repeat WWI.

I've had enough. You have, too.

See you tomorrow. I don't care where you are, or why. Dump it. Let's start tomorrow.

Oh, scrap it - let's start tonight. Let's start today!

I am only human. It's late where I am, and I need sleep, so I'll tackle this tomorrow.

- swamper

 

[Proton Soup]

Having read only a few of the responses, please allow me to say that I've received private e-mails from three people, all of African-American descent, who say:

"Let it ride."

I don't where that come's from, but it makes sense.

So, Let it ride.

it doesn't make sense to me. what does it mean? let what ride?

 

[DaveC426913]

Having read only a few of the responses, please allow me to say that I've received private e-mails from three people, all of African-American descent, who say:

"Let it ride."

I don't where that come's from, but it makes sense.

So, Let it ride.

I think what he's trying to tell us is that three of his black friends aren't offended. And if blacks aren't offended, then that makes it OK!

They get to decide after all.

 

[Proton Soup]

oh well. public domain now. does that make it fair game?

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/76/76-h/76-h.htm

 

[ThomasT]

ok, having read the posts, I'm going to suggest that the OP has been pretty much beaten to death and that the consensus seems to be that 'Huck Finn' shouldn't be censored and presented to young and impressionable readers but that it should remain uncensored and presented to older, presumably less impressionable readers. Is that the case?

If so, then it still remains that the word, "cool person", is a part of the past and present vernacular, which is off-topic, but a fact, imho, nonetheless.

Continuing off-topic, and I expect to be warned or whatever, I hear this sort of language whenever I have to take the public transit or visit the public library. I have to wonder why African Americans refer to themselves as "niggers". Can anyone enlighten me wrt this?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Continuing off-topic, and I expect to be warned or whatever, I hear this sort of language whenever I have to take the public transit or visit the public library. I have to wonder why African Americans refer to themselves as "niggers". Can anyone enlighten me wrt this?

That has long been a double standard in the black community. It is generally viewed as ghetto talk. The usage seems to have been popularized again by gangster rap.

My best take on this was that between blacks, and only between blacks, it is considered a term of unity and cultural identity - a common cultural scar worn as a badge. When I was living in gangland LA., on rare occasion a white guy could call a black guy "cool person" without insulting him, but only in private, and only if they were close friends. You didn't dare say this out loud in front of other blacks.

Leaders of the black community have addressed this issue and do condemn the use of the word by anyone.

 

[ThomasT]

That has long been a double standard in the black community. It is generally viewed as ghetto talk. The usage seems to have been popularized again by gangster rap.

My best take on this was that between blacks, and only between blacks, it is considered a term of unity and cultural identity - a common cultural scar worn as a badge. When I was living in gangland LA., on rare occasion a white guy could call a black guy "cool person" without insulting him, but only in private, and only if they were close friends. You didn't dare say this out loud in front of other blacks.

Leaders of the black community have addressed this issue and do condemn the use of the word by anyone.

Thanks for the reply. Your take aligns with mine more or less. I lived in a sort of ghetto community in New Haven, CT for a while where I was introduced to this vernacular, and have been curious about it ever since.

 

[CAC1001]

Off-topic, but as an aside, in addition to the "n" word being used by many blacks, I have also heard that the "gangsta" style of dress which only blacks can pull of wearing also has origins from the slave days, from the do-rags to the oversized clothes, which originated from when a boy who was a slave would start to outgrow his clothes; I don't know how based in fact that is though, but it wouldn't surprise me if it also was like a "common cultural scar" as Ivan Seeking describes that has been adopted today as a form of dress that some blacks wear as a form of unity.