Should I Switch Majors or Schools to Secure a Better Future?

In summary, the conversation discusses the dilemma of a sophomore at UW who loves math and physics but is considering changing majors due to the need for a well-paying job to pay back loans. They explore the options of changing schools and majoring in physics or another field like CS at a less prestigious in-state school. The conversation also touches on the difficulty of getting into a PhD program with a lower GPA and the job prospects for physics majors. The experts in the conversation offer different opinions and advice, with one suggesting that the majority of physics majors go on to pursue a PhD while the other argues that the job market for physics majors is not very promising.
  • #36
Dr. Courtney said:
It too me 60+ hours a week of working smarter and harder to post a 3.8-4.0 GPA each semester majoring in Physics.

If you fantasize that working smarter is all you need to do if you are only working 30-50 hours a week, you will fall short.

I was putting in around 60 hours a week of studying, but I think it was more of a learning curve of what I needed to do. This is what I mean about working smarter. You could work the entire week non stop, 24 hours a day and be doing the wrong things and still not get a good GPA.
 
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  • #37
homeomorphic said:
Well, let's see. What advice did I give on this thread prior to your last post?

1) Read a job search book.
2) Be prepared.

So, I fail to see how you said no such thing. True, you didn't intentionally say it, but you did unintentionally say it by failing to realize the implications and by bringing in stuff that I said from outside the thread that is not relevant to what I said.

The rest of what I said was not actually advice, just opinion, and a reminder of the facts on the ground, as can be verified by visiting a website, like http://www.indeed.com. I don't think many physics majors would say that what they find there represents an ideal situation for their options if they should end up with just a BS in physics. Does it mean they are going to be homeless? Probably not. Does it mean that they will have studied something they are not going to use? Quite possibly, or at least the risk that that will happen is significant, especially if they are particularly interested in particle physics or something like that. Whether or not that is grounds for not majoring in physics is a personal question that is up to the individual, but some people would actually see that as sufficient reason to pursue something else, and there is nothing wrong with them if they decide that is the case. There's also nothing wrong with deciding to take a risk or even realizing that there isn't a risk if there is really sufficient reason to believe that there isn't a risk (say your dad has tons of connections and can get you a job anywhere, etc.,).
Physics by itself is great but not enough. Studying Physics involves so much more that is not immediately recognized, because the focus is on understanding and solving either research or academic problems. Several courses or subjects on their own are not enough either. What did the successful Physics graduates study? Just Physics and some extra Mathematics? NO! Sit with a few Physics students (majoring usually in Physics). They talk. They discuss a few things during this leisure or study time. What will they tell each other? You find that even before graduating, some of them already have some part time technical or science job; or are dipping into such courses as Engineering, or Computer Science/Programming, and maybe some other type of course. These people are either becoming successes right then, or are preparing for success currently, for later.
 
  • #38
Going the easy route will hamper your success. If all you care about is getting good grades and not actually learning, then studying physics is not for you. There are 100 things much harder than Calculus. Taking the easy route will harm yourself in the long run. Last semester I saw a class full of students drop a linear algebra course, because they took the "easy way" out in there other math courses. Needless to say, memorizing algorithms or problems did not work for them, when we were asked prove theorems in class.

It is okay to struggle with the material. What is important you give it an honest shot and actually try. There is no magical formula.

I prefer Dr. Courtney's answer that you have to work hard AND smart. Memorization and just going for grades has nothing to do with working smarter--that's working dumber. Understanding a thing or two about the psychology of learning on the other hand--that's a good idea. So, yes, you can save yourself some effort.

As I found out, it's important not to work too hard or you will get burned out.
 
  • #39
MidgetDwarf said:
Going the easy route will hamper your success. If all you care about is getting good grades and not actually learning, then studying physics is not for you. There are 100 things much harder than Calculus. Taking the easy route will harm yourself in the long run. Last semester I saw a class full of students drop a linear algebra course, because they took the "easy way" out in there other math courses. Needless to say, memorizing algorithms or problems did not work for them, when we were asked prove theorems in class.

It is okay to struggle with the material. What is important you give it an honest shot and actually try. There is no magical formula.

That's very true. I guess what I am trying to say is I am learning how to study in a smart effective way that while it still takes time, doesn't waste my time. I will always work hard for my goals.
 
  • #40
Physics by itself is great but not enough. Studying Physics involves so much more that is not immediately recognized, because the focus is on understanding and solving either research or academic problems. Several courses or subjects on their own are not enough either. What did the successful Physics graduates study? Just Physics and some extra Mathematics? NO! Sit with a few Physics students (majoring usually in Physics). They talk. They discuss a few things during this leisure or study time. What will they tell each other? You find that even before graduating, some of them already have some part time technical or science job; or are dipping into such courses as Engineering, or Computer Science/Programming, and maybe some other type of course. These people are either becoming successes right then, or are preparing for success currently, for later.

That's part of my point. I would add people skills to the list of skills.

I hesitate to bring this up for fear that people will misrepresent my opinion based on the fact that I have had certain personal experiences (math PhD with a strong interest in physics) but I actually knew a ton of electrical engineering and computer science, but I didn't get any credit for knowing it in the job market until someone finally interviewed me and figured out that I was actually a pretty good candidate for a software developer job. So, if you can't sell yourself on the job market, all that extra knowledge will not do you much good.
 
  • #41
ModusPwnd said:
If all I got was a part time job after graduation I would want to go to graduate school "sometime in the future" too...

Be sure to compare it with other degrees. It may be that recently graduated just end up a lot with part-time jobs, for whatever reason.
 
  • #42
homeomorphic said:
True, but the problem is that I never claimed they would. I just claim they will face the same job postings that I did. And yes, that will be less of a problem for some, but there's no denying that it isn't pretty.
To homeomorphic,

First of all, that is not strictly true, as job postings will likely have changed and will change from the time you had searched for work (OK, that's nitpicking, but I had to point it out). So job postings may well be "prettier" than what you would have seen.

Second, job postings are not necessarily reflective of actual open job positions out there -- many positions are filled without any type of open job posting on websites like Indeed, Workopolis, Monster, etc.

Third, job postings that you see on these websites are not necessarily strict requirements (even if it is stated that way), but are wishlists for the "ideal candidate", and should best be thought of that way. Let's take a software development job as an example. Many of these positions will ask the candidates to have "a BS in computer science or equivalent", or something like that. You may think that would exclude those with, say, a physics or math degree, but the truth of it is that a physics or math degree is for all practical purposes the "equivalent" of a CS degree, so long as the candidate have the skills required for the job (e.g. programming experience in C++, SQL, or whatever).

Fourth, you often talk about being socially incompetent in your other threads. This may indeed be genetic (e.g. perhaps you suffer from Asperger's), but social skills are things that can be improved through practice & coaching. Anyone can become better at reading social cues and developing better communication skills through practice, through things like public speaking classes, speech coaches, through therapists, or through working with friends/family (if they are willing/able to help).
 
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  • #43
Second, job postings are not necessarily reflective of actual open job positions out there -- many positions are filled without any type of open job posting on websites like Indeed, Workopolis, Monster, etc.

Third, job postings that you see on these websites are not necessarily strict requirements (even if it is stated that way), but are wishlists for the "ideal candidate", and should best be thought of that way. Let's take a software development job as an example. Many of these positions will ask the candidates to have "a BS in computer science or equivalent", or something like that. You may think that would exclude those with, say, a physics or math degree, but the truth of it is that a physics or math degree is for all practical purposes the "equivalent" of a CS degree, so long as the candidate have the skills required for the job (e.g. programming experience in C++, SQL, or whatever).

Yes, but if you apply to those things, you might have to apply to hundreds of them to get even one interview. The thing is that people are going to have to solve the same sort of problem that I faced. It's like you just hit a wall if you aren't that good at networking. I don't believe you that people don't care about the degree and just what you can do. If that was true, I would have been hired instantly. I eventually did become a software developer, and I'm pretty good at it. Heck, I'm even good at the social aspects of it, which are fairly minimal. I'm just no good at networking and getting an interview.

Fourth, you often talk about being socially incompetent in your other threads. This may indeed be genetic (e.g. perhaps you suffer from Asperger's), but social skills are things that can be improved through practice & coaching. Anyone can become better at reading social cues and developing better communication skills through practice, through things like public speaking classes, speech coaches, through therapists, or through working with friends/family (if they are willing/able to help).

Which is part of the advice that I myself gave earlier. As I said, more normal people may be able to get even more leverage out of it than I can. I did a little questionnaire, and it's highly unlikely that I have full-blown Aspergers, but I would put myself in the very mildly autistic category.
 
  • #44
Almeisan said:
Be sure to compare it with other degrees. It may be that recently graduated just end up a lot with part-time jobs, for whatever reason.

One thing that does make me wonder is that some of the recommendations from the APS for keeping the physics major up to date for the job market echoes what ModusPwnd has been saying, eg. second majors or dual degress

From https://www.aip.org/statistics/reports/equipping-physics-majors
What faculty members can do:
Assess the common paths of your physics alumni and the interests of your students (and the students who quit the program) and consider whether it makes sense to expand your offerings. The possibilities are broad and could include both informal and formal changes, but here are some examples:
o Actively encourage physics students to complete minors or second majors in line with their interests and ambitions, including in fields like economics, business, biology, journalism, education, and computer science.
o Informally or formally incorporate concentrations or areas of specialization within the majors, e.g., physics education or biophysics.
o Develop multiple physics degree programs to address students interested in attending graduate school, going right into the workforce (e.g., a professional physics degree), or going into a related field (e.g., an engineering physics degree). These might include a common set of classes but diverge when it comes to upperlevel requirements.
o Establish a dual-degree program, such as a physics–engineering 3-2 program where upon completion students earn a physics degree from one school and an engineering degree from a partner school.
o Provide physics majors with access to certificate or other training programs in specialized software packages that are valued by employers (e.g., LabVIEW), or in specialized equipment.
o Identify potential partner departments on your campus (e.g., medicine, business, education) and work with them to develop interdisciplinary courses of study that combine aspects of the disciplines.
o Consider ways to address physics career options directly through seminar classes or other departmental activities.
 
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  • #45
homeomorphic said:
Yes, but if you apply to those things, you might have to apply to hundreds of them to get even one interview. The thing is that people are going to have to solve the same sort of problem that I faced.

First of all, people who graduated with me had a masters in pure mathematics. They all found a job very easily, after a few months of looking. So it's not really that difficult. Anecdotal evidence, I know.

Second, even if it's true that you have to apply to many to get to an interview, who says that is not true for other degrees? There are occasional threads here of engineers who are unhappy with their employment too. So I'm not necessarily sure that math and physics majors have that much more issues getting an employment that they like.
 
  • #46
First of all, people who graduated with me had a masters in pure mathematics. They all found a job very easily, after a few months of looking. So it's not really that difficult. Anecdotal evidence, I know.

Few months. Very easily. Hmm..

It's conceivable that the whole over-qualified thing was an issue for me, with the full PhD because a lot of people think you are just above them and shouldn't be asking for a job with them. Then, anywhere PhDs are expected, it's too competitive.

Second, even if it's true that you have to apply to many to get to an interview, who says that is not true for other degrees? There are occasional threads here of engineers who are unhappy with their employment too. So I'm not necessarily sure that math and physics majors have that much more issues getting an employment that they like.

Sure, other degrees have that problem, but not as much. My advice to be prepared applies to all majors, but this is physics forums.
 
  • #47
homeomorphic said:
Sure, other degrees have that problem, but not as much.

And you know how?
 
  • #48
Do we really have to dig up the stats every time? Isn't it just common knowledge that engineering is better than physics for getting a job? Plus, it's not just about the employment rate, but the rate of being able to do what you studied, and those numbers can be a little harder to get a hold of or be objective about, even if you have some data.
 
  • #49
homeomorphic said:
Few months. Very easily. Hmm..

Are you implying a few months is not easily? What do you expect, people calling you and begging you to take their job? It can take quite some time to find a suitable job and that is true for any major. This is why you actively start looking months before graduation.
 
  • #50
homeomorphic said:
Do we really have to dig up the stats every time? Isn't it just common knowledge that engineering is better than physics for getting a job? Plus, it's not just about the employment rate, but the rate of being able to do what you studied, and those numbers can be a little harder to get a hold of or be objective about, even if you have some data.

OK, so you're making things up, got it.

Also, you said, any major. And now you're talking about engineering?
 
  • #51
No, I have seen the stats lots of times. Making it up? Common knowledge?

It might not be THAT much better, but I can predict that it is better. We can track down stats to prove it, if you really want.

Also, you said, any major. And now you're talking about engineering?

Yes, I said my advice to be prepared applies to any major. I don't understand your point. It's agreeing with you, silly.
 
  • #52
homeomorphic said:
Yes, I said my advice to be prepared applies to any major. I don't understand your point.

No, you said:

Sure, other degrees have that problem, but not as much.

This implies to me that any other degree other than math and physics would get easier employment. Seriously? Or did you just want to substitute "other degrees" with "engineering"?

Second, it's about job satisfaction too. There are many engineers who end up in unsatisfying jobs (hey, if you can get away with not giving evidence, so can I). So either they live their life unfulfilled or they they start hopping between jobs. I think it would be better to wait a few months to see you'll get a job you'll actually like.
 
  • #53
This implies to me that any other degree other than math and physics would get easier employment. Seriously? Or did you just want to substitute "other degrees" with "engineering"?

It could be interpreted either way. No, I had certain degrees in mind when I said that. Engineering, computer science. I didn't say all. You made that up. I just didn't specify which I meant.

There are many engineers who end up in unsatisfying jobs (hey, if you can get away with not giving evidence, so can I). So either they live their life unfulfilled or they they start hopping between jobs.

I alluded to existing evidence, rather than giving it because I couldn't google it up right away. I have seen the numbers, although it may be slightly outdated and I don't remember exactly. You run into trouble when you assume that my opinions are absolute. If someone really likes physics that much better than engineering, then sure, they can study physics. I just contend that it should be a strong preference or else it's better to study engineering.
 
  • #54
homeomorphic said:
It could be interpreted either way. No, I had certain degrees in mind when I said that. Engineering, computer science. I didn't say all. You made that up. I just didn't specify which I meant.

OK, I'm sorry you were vague then.

Anyway, some specific numbers about the percentage of employed people 1 year after their studies:
1) Master Chemistry: 0% unemployment
2) Master Mathematics: 0% unemployment
3) Master Religion: 4.2% unemployment
4) Master dentistry: 0% unemployment
5) Bachelor electromechanics: 2.9% unemployment
6) Bachelor medical imaging: 0% unemployment
7) Bachelor Literature: 25% unemployment
8) Master Visual Art: 25% unemployment
9) Bachelor Fashion: 23% unemployment

Sure, it might be different in the US, but I really doubt it's that much different: http://www.vacature.com/artikel/9-experts-over-de-marktwaarde-van-10-diploma-s
 
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  • #55
This thread is about BS physics.
 
  • #56
And you don't think the employment rate of physicists would be close to that of mathematicians and chemists?
 
  • #57
And yeah, physics is probably one of the better majors, but it's not the best. If you want the best chance of a good job, you choose the best, not the second best. Engineering and computer science rule, physics and math drool.

I'm just kidding, by the way.
 
  • #58
homeomorphic said:
And yeah, physics is probably one of the better majors, but it's not the best. If you want the best chance of a good job, you choose the best, not the second best. Engineering and computer science rule, physics and math drool.

I'm just kidding, by the way.

So you're just going to ignore my numbers and go on with spouting your own opinion? Ok then...
 
  • #59
Masters in physics.
 
  • #60
That's because you misunderstand how European education works. Everybody here gets a masters in physics. It is somewhat comparable to a Bachelor in the US.
 
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  • #61
Oh no, I wasn't able to Google fast enough.

http://www.studentsreview.com/unemployment_by_major.php3

So, yes, EE is better than physics, as claimed, although it's not that much better.

I thought we established much earlier, though, that the unemployment rate is not really the issue.
 
  • #62
homeomorphic said:
Oh no, I wasn't able to Google fast enough.

http://www.studentsreview.com/unemployment_by_major.php3

So, yes, EE is better than physics, as claimed, although it's not that much better.

I thought we established much earlier, though, that the unemployment rate is not really the issue.

And I can see from those numbers that Physics is better than Computer Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Accounting and quite comparable to Computer Science. It is also better than Average. So are you going to drop your silly opinion now that you can't get a job with a BS Physics and that engineering is always better?
 
  • #63
That's not my opinion. Nothing to do with employment rate. We already established that much earlier. Rate of being able to use what you study.
 
  • #64
Okay, so maybe I was wrong about that for civil and mechanical, but EE and CS are still better. I maybe did overestimate by how much, but it's there. But even with that said, that isn't really the issue.
 
  • #65
homeomorphic said:
Okay, so maybe I was wrong about that for civil and mechanical, but EE and CS are still better. I maybe did overestimate by how much, but it's there. But even with that said, that isn't really the issue.

Sure, CS is better. By 0.5%, you don't feel you're being a bit dishonest now? It's not like the difference is 0% versus 10%! It's 4.1% vs 4.6%. And for EE, it's 3.5% versus 4.6% which is (in my opinion) not a landslide either.

So you feel a difference of 0.5% is enough to advice people not to take physics and to take Computer Science instead?
 
  • #66
So you feel a difference of 0.5% is enough to advice people not to take physics and to take Computer Science instead?

I think you may have missed the part about how that wasn't the issue.
 
  • #67
And then we have job satisfaction: http://www.studentsreview.com/satisfaction_by_major.php3

Computer Science: 69.6%
EE: 75.9%
Math: 78.9%
Mech Eng: 82.6%
Physics: 72.5%

Sure, physics is among the worst here, but not by much (and certainly compared to some other majors which have 50% or something).
 
  • #68
Job satisfaction is not the issue, either.
 
  • #69
homeomorphic said:
I think you may have missed the part about how that wasn't the issue.

So Physics have a better job satisfaction rate than Computer science. Would this be part of the issue?
 
  • #70
I said what the issue was.
 

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