Should songs be under government consent?

[khemist]

BTW the ghetto really isn't that bad. You stay to yourself and people don't **** with you, unless its 1am.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

BTW the ghetto really isn't that bad. You stay to yourself and people don't **** with you, unless its 1am.

Do you live in a ghetto? What city?

 

[zomgwtf]

Do you live in a ghetto? What city?

I've lived in a rather poor and neglected area my entire life well until recently... The owners of the area have been trying to clean it up and with police help throughout much of the 90s and early 2000s it's not so bad anymore. Still if you call the cops and tell them something is happening at the barracks it'll take them no less than 2 minutes to have police cars swarming the drive way. I mentioned this in another post but it got deleted for no apparent reason. (Probably too much "attitude")

Regardless I've been in many poor areas, housing areas, 'project' type areas... they aren't all that bad. I would assume it's worse in America due to racial segregation being all the rave there making bad situations worse but either way it's just a tough life and you see things the average person wouldn't see regularly see on the average day. Like drug deals, people being jumped, shootings you end up with friends that die or kill at very young ages... friends in prison for many reasons. (recently these kids I knew got into a pretty big fight at a bar they ended up dragging the guy out into the street broke both of his legs and slit his throat in the middle of the street and just left him there... they were still in high school... but these events are quite rare up here not that it was shocking to people that it happened though)

Generally speaking if you live IN the ghetto people FROM the ghetto won't really be bothering you unless you cause problems for them. You'll face more problems coming from the middle and upper class people that you deal with. (Which a large amount of rap songs are actually about) I don't think any break ins for the purpose of robbery has occurred where I live in my entire life. The surrounding areas, not so lucky... Growing up there was a strong sense of community within where I live.

 

[khemist]

Do you live in a ghetto? What city?

I live in Oakland. Pretty much on the outskirts of the ghetto. I went to a public high school which had probably 50-70% of the students come from the flats (maybe even more?).

 

[zoobyshoe]

Here in the US the government has totally banned cigarette ads on TV. The reasoning is that these ads persuade people to smoke. (Smoking, interestingly enough, is legal.)

I think the Government and Society, could, by using the same tactics it used against smoking, crack down on the production, and dissemination of, music with a violent message.

 

[bp_psy]

Here in the US the government has totally banned cigarette ads on TV. The reasoning is that these ads persuade people to smoke. (Smoking, interestingly enough, is legal.)

I think the Government and Society, could, by using the same tactics it used against smoking, crack down on the production, and dissemination of, music with a violent message.

In the case of cigarettes there has been conclusive scientific evidence that there is actual harm.I doubt that this is true for "music with violent message", whatever that means.

 

[Willowz]

Learning good behavior starts at home.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

In the case of cigarettes there has been conclusive scientific evidence that there is actual harm.I doubt that this is true for "music with violent message", whatever that means.

Then the cigarettes should be made illegal, not free speech.

 

[Disconnected]

BTW the ghetto really isn't that bad. You stay to yourself and people don't **** with you, unless its 1am.

This is just a side story, and has nothing to do with this discussion in any way. Some friends of mine who work for NOLS, and live in tents (and on one occasion a very elaborite tree house) when not working, were once doing some training course to try to become qualified to work maintinance on very deep water pipelines. Both of them dropped out about 1/3 the way through the course as they didn't like how little time hte coursework+money work left them for adventures. Anyways, the classes were in LA and the shared a little house with a couple other guys (not on their course) in "south central" (or so he said, he was usually pretty good for his word, though). Anyways, one night they were all hanging out in the kitchen which was at the back of the house, and were getting a little drunk when they hear a rapid series of gunshots outside, and one of the guys pitches forward and grabs his shoulder. There had been a shooting outside and a round had punched through 3 walls and hit my buddy's housemate in the shoulder, which it bounced off of, leaving him with a nice big welt and a small metal souvinier that he kept with him as his lucky charm from then on.


I'm not sure how accurate this story was, I heard it from a guy who was apparently in the room, but whatever. I think it's neat.

 

[Newai]

[PLAIN]http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8419/pa001.jpg

If I attach this to the beginning of my posts, can I go over the top?

I should become a contributor and make this my avatar.

 

[khemist]

This is just a side story, and has nothing to do with this discussion in any way. Some friends of mine who work for NOLS, and live in tents (and on one occasion a very elaborite tree house) when not working, were once doing some training course to try to become qualified to work maintinance on very deep water pipelines. Both of them dropped out about 1/3 the way through the course as they didn't like how little time hte coursework+money work left them for adventures. Anyways, the classes were in LA and the shared a little house with a couple other guys (not on their course) in "south central" (or so he said, he was usually pretty good for his word, though). Anyways, one night they were all hanging out in the kitchen which was at the back of the house, and were getting a little drunk when they hear a rapid series of gunshots outside, and one of the guys pitches forward and grabs his shoulder. There had been a shooting outside and a round had punched through 3 walls and hit my buddy's housemate in the shoulder, which it bounced off of, leaving him with a nice big welt and a small metal souvinier that he kept with him as his lucky charm from then on.


I'm not sure how accurate this story was, I heard it from a guy who was apparently in the room, but whatever. I think it's neat.

In urban environments those things will happen... A few years ago a kid was at piano practice and was hit by a bullet that went through the wall. Just a couple weeks ago my friends dad was approached by a kid (probably 17-20) trying to get his bike. My friends dad basically gave the kid the finger, and the kid promptly ran up and shot him in the stomach.

Dont get me wrong, people are really messed up, but to blame the chaos on music is, as many people in the thread have stated, quite absurd. Music is a reflection of society, not the other way around.

What about movies about Al Capone and other gangsters (again, already mentioned in this thread)? They certainly glorified the use of guns and illegal actions... Oh, but they were wearing suits, so I guess its ok

 

[Nano-Passion]

i'm not for inciting violence. I'm just finding it odd that the problem is somehow music. why not movies? our entertainment industry has a long history of violence in movies, much of it about gangsters, hit men, lone wolf killers, etc. the hit television show Dexter is about a sociopath that tempers his desire to kill by choosing victims that deserve to die. a kind of guiltless vigilante.

you've got to be pretty careful when trying to divine the line between entertainment, fantasy, and political advocacy.

Music has a much more powerful affect in the fact that you can carry it anywhere and you can replay it anytime you want. You don't replay movies around in the bus listening to the words carefully. People memorize all the words of these songs and sing them down the block or keep it to themselves quietly.

I know violence is influence by other things. This thread is specifically geared toward music.

Censor the music how? Limit play time on TV, radio, etc. to certain hours? Not allowing music with certain content to be played AT ALL on mass media? What about the internet? What about live music, concerts, etc.? Who's going to decide what is allowable and what's not (somebody has to do it)? How are you going to differentiate between a hip hop song that "promotes" violence and a Johnny Cash song that "promotes" violence? Censor them both? What about heavy metal and punk? How could you justify this type of censorship being placed on the music industry when there is, arguably, just as much violence in video games and movies?

Did you have a real plan or were you just thinking aloud?

You don't see people come out of their house shooting people after playing call of duty. Music has a much more profound affect, I don't know if you live by any ghetto areas but people are moved by these songs. It reinforces the "gangster" and violent things. I've been around in a bad school were your simply scared to walk alone. People ARE moved by these songs. You don't see it, you provide good points but you don't know what extent each influence can play.

Yes, I know music can still be on the internet and the such. But think more long term.. things die over time. Not many people here listens to songs from the 1930s anymore (I don't know if any).

LOL. I'm sure some members here grew up during the popular rise of Rock music Jazz music, raves, drugs etc. etc. etc.? What about all the other various forms of art throughout the history which have been considered pornographic and obscene and shouldn't be in a 'decent' society. What I don't think should be in any decent society is the idea that you somehow think you have the right to impose what YOU think on others. Especially with the use of the government, that's hilarious. Are you this conservative about other things too?

There's nothing wrong with girls listening to songs about being sexual, and you know what? There's nothing wrong with them having sex or being sexual.

There' nothing wrong with people listening to songs about not taking **** from anyone, and there's nothing wrong with people that DON'T tak **** from anyone.

Get a grip.

Comparing the moral issue of pornography in the late 20th century with violence and gangs is nonsense.

Funny, you say I don't have a right to impose what I think of others. So you think in some other parallel universe violence should be condoned?

There isn't anything wrong with girls listening to sexual songs, but I said it ticks me off because I have a little sister who others can take advantage of. But this thread is geared toward violence.

And to your last point, "there is nothing wrong with people ... not taking **** from anyone": this thread isn't about people getting bullied... Its about gangs and childish violence.

Just because you are too old for the music/ don't like it doesn't mean it should be banned.

To say that rap music is the cause is ignorant. Granted, it most likely is an influence, but try fixing the broken education system before trying to censor stupid music (I agree, its stupid)...

Then again, its pretty fun to roll down the street with it pounding.

I don't know why people keep assuming I said rap music is the cause. So I decided to reread my original post. I made it clear that it was an influence. And I didn't blame rap music, I blame music that promotes the "gangster" life and violence.

 

[Nano-Passion]

In urban environments those things will happen... A few years ago a kid was at piano practice and was hit by a bullet that went through the wall. Just a couple weeks ago my friends dad was approached by a kid (probably 17-20) trying to get his bike. My friends dad basically gave the kid the finger, and the kid promptly ran up and shot him in the stomach.

Dont get me wrong, people are really messed up, but to blame the chaos on music is, as many people in the thread have stated, quite absurd. Music is a reflection of society, not the other way around.

What about movies about Al Capone and other gangsters (again, already mentioned in this thread)? They certainly glorified the use of guns and illegal actions... Oh, but they were wearing suits, so I guess its ok

I know music is a reflection of society, but that reflection comes back around to influence other people also.

I don't see why you think there would be a "huge change". Violence is everywhere in our society, it's not just in the odd rough estate it's prolific in all of our media. I'm not saying that if all violent music disappeared there would not by a change but my biggest criticism is that official censorship is hugely open to abuse and generates black markets. If you ban the music people will send it all over the internet, you'll get worse music and worse attitudes towards society and the government because now they are oppressive.

Again though, abuse of the system is far to easy. It can start off as a nice idea to curb gang violence but it won't stay that way. Can you imagine if the more conservative members of the US government (think Tea Party) got themselves onto this committee? Suddenly you'll find music banned because the artist was apparently in a gang, or because it uses the word gang, or because the artist is a black guy rapping against the government and using words like revolution.

Seriously, we can sit around and talk about what would it be like in a hypothetical world where censorship wouldn't be abused, where defining what should be banned is easy and unspinnable, where banning a product resulted in it's absolute removal from society etc but in reality the practicalities of the process mean that it will never work.

You make a pretty good point.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Here's some songs I could think of and looked up youtube to make sure I wasn't crazy.

Every Breath You Take - The Police
Murder by Numbers - The Police
You're All I Need - Motley Crue
Killers - Iron Maiden
Homicide - 999
A little piece of heaven - Avenged Sevenfold
It's well known that that song Maniac from flashdance is about a serial killer (It's based on the 1980s movie Maniac)
I love the dead - Alice cooper... pretty ****ed up song.
I don't like Mondays -Boomtown Rats
Stagger lee - Lloy Price (Or any other cover of this song... funny that this song was censored but reached number 1)
Yer Blues - The beatles... off their infamous white album. Suicidal song.
Maneater - Hall & Oates version obviously
Running Gun Blues - David Bowie
Little Susie - MJ
Via Chicago - Wilco (Pretty new but still...)

Then there's death metal, which has been around a very long time... Listen to this song:


9 minutes about drowning someone.

Give me a break, Pengwuino. Songs about murder and rape and just crime in general go so far back it's mind boggling. That song by Llyod Price comes from a 1924 song. No none of these songs are inciting murder, no these songs should not be censored. Yes some were censored when they first came out, no they are not censored now (well foul language and violence in videos are on TV and radio but not by the govn't...) I have chosen these songs specifically because I believe you will know most if not all of them. They are quite popular songs (well I think they must be for ME to know about them but my parents grew up with that music so I grew up with that music really) Regardless, I'll await for your apologetics for why this is a different case.

Its funny how songs promoting the gangster life seem to do more harm then these songs listed above. I think its because they promote a way of life and gangs.

 

[zomgwtf]

Its funny how songs promoting the gangster life seem to do more harm then these songs listed above. I think its because they promote a way of life and gangs.

I think it's cause you're equating listening to 'gansta music' equates to becoming a 'gangsta' yourself. Go outside and live in the real world man. You have no ****ing idea what you're talking about.

Also you're making factual claims in your posts I want citations for these in your next post or I'm reporting you. It might be General discussion but I don't think the rules are lenient enough to let you just say whatever the **** you want with no backing.

PS. Another ******** point you try to make is that those songs would hardly cause as 'much damage', however imaginary that damage is... Biker gangs are FAR more dangerous around Canada than any other gangs. They hardly listen to gangster rap LOL!

 

[zomgwtf]

Thug life. Ya I'll promote it. Should PF censor me too? Ohnoes but the government ALREADY put the song in the Library of Congress!

OGHyutNq-S4[/youtube] "**** all you...least a year. Get a better sense of reality.

 

[zomgwtf]

Comparing the moral issue of pornography in the late 20th century with violence and gangs is nonsense.

Funny, you say I don't have a right to impose what I think of others. So you think in some other parallel universe violence should be condoned?

There isn't anything wrong with girls listening to sexual songs, but I said it ticks me off because I have a little sister who others can take advantage of. But this thread is geared toward violence.

And to your last point, "there is nothing wrong with people ... not taking **** from anyone": this thread isn't about people getting bullied... Its about gangs and childish violence.

No sense? YOU only think that it's a serious violence issue. Talking about issues people face living in the ghetto is very much the same as trying to censor pornography or rock music or anything like that. This ******** argument of 'it causes deaths, it causes violence, it causes gangs.' has been tried so many times throughout history to try and shut people up by people who don't like listening to reality of life, trust me you'll get no where this time either.

I said you have no right to impose what you believe ON others. What does that have to do with parallel universes? Calling for government censorship on something just because you don't like it, regardless of whatever ******** 'evidence' you have in support is very much trying to force your world view on others. That's what censorship is all about. An attempt to force a worldview (it's oh-so-bad!)

Why include that example in the OP. No one cares about what your sister listens. It seems to me you included SPECIFICALLY as evidence of what is 'polluting' the young minds of children today. You wouldn't just include it because it 'ticks you off that your sister listens to it' cause that has nothing to do with the rest of your post.

No that second song isn't about promoting "gang-violence" really. It's about standing up and getting what you want when others are trying to push you down. Thug life in the truest sense of the word. If you wanted to make a thread about gang violence then make one, why make one ridiculously stupid thread about censoring music.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I think this kind of music is bad, but I don't think it should be censored. Really, I could care less at what kids listen nowadays, I know that my children aren't going to listen to this, and that's all that matters. And I will raise them in a place where there are no gangs so they won't get attacked by them too.

Many people are self destructive, I don't think passing laws to regulate them help in any way in the long term, that's what communists wanted they wanted everybody to follow their guidelines so society would be better, it's good in theory, but I think it's a highly utopic idea moreover it's based on the idea that everybody should help each other.
Not my case, call me an egoist but I can't care about everybody nor do I want everybody to follow what I think is right nor do I want to be helped by the government in how I should conduct my life.
If they want to destroy their lives with drugs and gang violence, too bad for them.

 

[Hurkyl]

I said you have no right to impose what you believe ON others.

Depending on the particular belief, of course.

 

[zomgwtf]

If they want to destroy their lives with drugs and gang violence, too bad for them

Keep thinking they want that over a normal life away from the ghetto. There probably are some like that but the majority of people? No way. They want what everyone else wants... money and a good life.

 

[Disconnected]

You don't see people come out of their house shooting people after playing call of duty.

Actually several school shootings have been "blamed" on video games.
For example (Yes, it's wiki, I know, I know): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre#Video_games

(Side note: I want to go on the record to say that "Juicy" is a 5 star song with a 1 star hook. And why the sparkle effect? WHY?)

I still don't see how censorship could be effectively put in place. Now an age limit thing similar to movies or videogames, I guess could work, but I really don't see outright banning of any music.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Now an age limit thing similar to movies or videogames, I guess could work, but I really don't see outright banning of any music.

That would work about as well as ratings for movies and videogames now, badly. Very few shops actually bother to check ID (who cares? Unlike alcohol there really aren't any repercussions if someone finds them to be selling underage) and kids can always order it over the internet or get older friend/brother/mother to buy it.

 

[Disconnected]

That would work about as well as ratings for movies and videogames now, badly. Very few shops actually bother to check ID (who cares? Unlike alcohol there really aren't any repercussions if someone finds them to be selling underage) and kids can always order it over the internet or get older friend/brother/mother to buy it.

Yeah, I must have forgotten to put the little addition "but that wouldn't really work". I mean, a large number of people download their music illegally anyways, I really don't forsee TPB checking ID any time ever.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Yeah, I must have forgotten to put the little addition "but that wouldn't really work". I mean, a large number of people download their music illegally anyways, I really don't forsee TPB checking ID any time ever.

Adding to that is the fact that compared to a decade ago most people stream music rather than buy/download (I did have a link to that ages ago but have forgotten it). Considering no-one has come up with a way to implement reliable identification over the internet (thank god) people could just youtube it. All age restrictions would do is hurt legal music sales slightly and make no difference.

 

[Disconnected]

Similarly, if you were to ban these songs, the huge quantity of them already avalible for download/streaming would make it a pretty futile effort.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Similarly, if you were to ban these songs, the huge quantity of them already avalible for download/streaming would make it a pretty futile effort.

It would also allow the artists who make these violent songs to assume a veneer of authority by making songs both about violence and busting censorship. Fusing the two issues would nicely confuse the issue for the very people who the censors are trying to stop becoming violence.

 

[Norman]

I never knew Tipper Gore was a member here and that she had such a passion for Nanoscience...

 

[zomgwtf]

I'm still waiting for a citation on all this 'music causes violence' non-sense.

 

[Disconnected]

I'm still waiting for a citation on all this 'music causes violence' non-sense.

Didn't you know?

 

[zomgwtf]

Didn't you know?

haha touche.
Why didn't I think of posting this!

 

[stringy]

You don't see people come out of their house shooting people after playing call of duty. Music has a much more profound affect, I don't know if you live by any ghetto areas but people are moved by these songs. It reinforces the "gangster" and violent things. I've been around in a bad school were your simply scared to walk alone. People ARE moved by these songs. You don't see it, you provide good points but you don't know what extent each influence can play.

Yes, I know music can still be on the internet and the such. But think more long term.. things die over time. Not many people here listens to songs from the 1930s anymore (I don't know if any).

Here's my point: These sorts of things are nice in theory but will be a nightmare in practice. And without you explicitly stating what you mean by "censorship" or "government consent," it's hard to know how to respond!

For instance, I could be persuaded to support limiting play time to certain hours of the day (sort of like late night TV), but an outright ban...well, that's just laughable. Surely that's not what you meant, but I didn't want to assume.

Oh, and on the side, thumbs up to zomgwtf for the Opeth post! Deliverence was my first Opeth album back in high school.

 

[Norman]

Two quotes about censorship that I feel are very poignant:

Books won't stay banned. They won't burn. Ideas won't go to jail. In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only weapon against bad ideas is better ideas.

If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.

As has been said over and over in this thread - censorship is a slippery slope. Where does it stop. Don't start treating people like sheep and slaves - let them make up their own minds. Only better ideas will prevail, not extinguishing those ideas. Treat the underlying problem - not the symptom.

 

[zomgwtf]

Depending on the particular belief, of course.

If this is an attempt to say what I'm saying is imposing a belief then I don't buy it... if not then I don't get it.

I'm saying he has no right to do it, not that he can't believe he can do it and that I'll get the government to stop him from believing it. Not comparable.

 

[Nano-Passion]

I think it's cause you're equating listening to 'gansta music' equates to becoming a 'gangsta' yourself. Go outside and live in the real world man. You have no ****ing idea what you're talking about.

Also you're making factual claims in your posts I want citations for these in your next post or I'm reporting you. It might be General discussion but I don't think the rules are lenient enough to let you just say whatever the **** you want with no backing.

PS. Another ******** point you try to make is that those songs would hardly cause as 'much damage', however imaginary that damage is... Biker gangs are FAR more dangerous around Canada than any other gangs. They hardly listen to gangster rap LOL!

Whats with the cursing and attacks? Relax yourself.

Music Preferences and Their Relationship to Behaviors, Beliefs, and Attitudes toward Aggression
http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED507397.pdf

Tragic Narratives in Popular Culture: Depictions of Homicide in Rap Music.
doi: 10.1111/j.1573-7861.2009.01122.x

Taken from abstract:

"Results show violent death was constructed in glorified ways, incorporated cautionary tales, or used as an analogy for powerful rhyming. The major themes found in these homicide-related rap lyrics were the normalization of killing, respect maintenance, confrontation with the power structure, vengeance, and masculine confrontation. Homicide was almost always male on male. Careful consideration is given to the multiple meanings of homicide, particularly the ways rappers have appropriated the word “killing” and transformed it into a term that indicates creative success."

Whats powerful about music aside from its sheer influential power is its ability to change paradigms and influence cultures.

Dark Side of the Tune: Popular Music and Violence.
Authors: MASTERMAN, BRANDON P.
Source: Notes; Dec2009, Vol. 66 Issue 2, p282-284, 3p

Need more? That was just a quick search too. It doesn't take a genius to understand that music can be really influential. Others have made good points that there are other influences such as the media which I am aware of. Get off your high and mighty horse its a discussion, don't assume a devout certainty, you are not a divine being. Social issues are incredibly complex, its not the type of thing that is either a or b.

I'm here for a discussion, tone it down a bit. Others have made pretty good points which I respected, if you feel so strongly about it go vent to your mother.

 

[zomgwtf]

You do know that what you have bolded just means that rappers have turned the word 'killing' into a good thing... like 'i'm killing it'. I don't buy that rappers created this vernacular language but even so what you've posted hardly points the finger of blame of gangs and such at rap music.

So yeah, another source. Ps I'm not acting like a 'divine being' I have no idea what you're on to come up with your **** but perhaps it's time to stop?