Should the Bush tax cuts be extended?

[Al68]

So, because the Democrats are lying sacks, you think that the Republicans aren't also? They're in very similar, and often overlapping, pockets, but I don't think this is an example of obsession with the rich. I believe this is an example of not extending a handout from one group of sociopaths, so that they can use that money as a handout for their own group of sociopaths. Even then, it's not a reason to support these cuts, just a reason to hate both parties.

What's not a reason to support tax cuts? I don't know what you're trying to say here, or what "handouts" you're talking about, or what "sociopaths" you're talking about. I just can't make any sense of your post.

 

[WhoWee]

Perhaps the better question to ask in this debate can be framed around the Obama tax cuts.

How many jobs were created from Obama's tax cuts to 95% of all Americans?
Better yet, how many jobs were created from Cash for Clunkers?

We've seen massive stimulus spending, a takeover of the auto industry, extensions of unemployment, promises of a better future, promises of Green energy potentials, Union subsidies, COBRA extensions, promises of better health care, etc.

The question is when and how? The Government can't subsidize our future - somebody has to pay for it. An extra $10 in someone's pocket buys a pizza - and a need for an additional $10. An extra $100,000 left in a business creates growth, employment, and future tax revenue.

 

[russ_watters]

If rescindining W's tax cuts for the rich equates to a crippling tax increase, I have a glass of Kool-Aid for you.

Well it certainly doesn't equate to a tax cut to extend it as you characerized earlier. Your posts are entirely propagandizing; misdirection, obfuscation, strawman, and hyperbole.

 

[nismaratwork]

What's not a reason to support tax cuts? I don't know what you're trying to say here, or what "handouts" you're talking about, or what "sociopaths" you're talking about. I just can't make any sense of your post.

Handouts to the people, and, depending on the party, corporations or unions which got them elected. Does that help decipher the riddle?

WhoWee: How many jobs were created by Bush's tax cuts?

 

[mheslep]

One of the best ideas the Republican party has come up with is pay-as-you-go, which was policy during the 90s and resulted in reducing the deficit drastically. Inspired by that idea, I propose a poll...well I guess there's already a poll, so a nested poll:

For those who would like to extend the tax cuts, please indicate how you want them to be paid for.

1) Borrow from the Chinese (actually the same as borrowing from the next generation)
2) Borrow from the Saudis (ditto)
3) Print more money

Or is there some other way that you have in mind?

Why did you leave off the obvious 4) 'cut spending' from that list? The projected yearly revenue for the tax increase for the top 2% is a small fraction of the current $1400B yearly deficit; projected revenue from tax increases across all income levels is still a fraction. So discussion of this particular scheduled tax increase as any kind of remedy for this deficit is a meaningless distraction aside from the political consequences, which I grant are (unfortunately) significant.

As far as what to cut, there have been several straightforward proposals:

[...]
There's a simple spending correction plan to balance the budget, put forward recently by Rep Ryan:
o Resend the balance of TARP
o Resend the balance of the AARA stimulus.
o Restore other non-entitlement spending back to 2008 levels.
That's $1.3T, done.

 

[nismaratwork]

Why did you leave off the obvious 4) 'cut spending' from that list? The projected yearly revenue for the tax increase for the top 2% is a small fraction of the current $1400B yearly deficit; projected revenue from tax increases across all income levels is still a fraction. So discussion of this particular scheduled tax increase as any kind of remedy for this deficit is a meaningless distraction aside from the political consequences, which I grant are (unfortunately) significant.

As far as what to cut, there have been several straightforward proposals:

Is there a reason that a small fraction shouldn't be added to other measures to add up to a larger fraction?

 

[mheslep]

Is there a reason that a small fraction shouldn't be added to other measures to add up to a larger fraction?

Yes sure, but i) I was responding both specifically to a post where spending was omitted entirely and generally to the larger discussion where spending is often omitted entirely, ii) increasing taxes tends to slow economic growth, a bad thing especially with 9-10% unemployment hence the majority of economists polled in the link I posted above favoring no tax increase (for anyone) at this time.

 

[nismaratwork]

Yes sure, but i) I was responding both specifically to a post where spending was omitted entirely and generally to the larger discussion where spending is often omitted entirely, ii) increasing taxes tends to slow economic growth, a bad thing especially with 9-10% unemployment hence the majority of economists polled in the link I posted above favoring no tax increase (for anyone) at this time.

Well, The TAARP and AARA bit you mentioned sounds good, I'll admit... entitlement reform just isn't going to happen with democrats where they are, and I don't know enough about it to discuss it.

In the one narrow area of not extending, or increasing (whichever term) these taxes for the top 2%, is that likely to slow economic growth? I understand that across-the-board tax increases slows economic growth, but is there any material out there examining what taxing that top 2% does, other than get that small amount to add to other small amounts?

 

[lisab]

Why did you leave off the obvious 4) 'cut spending' from that list? The projected yearly revenue for the tax increase for the top 2% is a small fraction of the current $1400B yearly deficit; projected revenue from tax increases across all income levels is still a fraction. So discussion of this particular scheduled tax increase as any kind of remedy for this deficit is a meaningless distraction aside from the political consequences, which I grant are (unfortunately) significant.

As far as what to cut, there have been several straightforward proposals:

Yes I realize I left it off, because politically I don't see it happening. It seems that no matter who runs congress they'd rather borrow than cut.

And speaking of things not happening...the third item on the list, cutting social programs. I can't imagine any politician explaining to retired folks their benefits will be cut to allow the wealthy to keep their Bush tax cuts!

But yes, resinding unspent bailout money should certainly be considered -- to cut deficit spending, not to ensure the wealthy get a tax cut.

 

[turbo]

Yes I realize I left it off, because politically I don't see it happening. It seems that no matter who runs congress they'd rather borrow than cut.

And speaking of things not happening...the third item on the list, cutting social programs. I can't imagine any politician explaining to retired folks their benefits will be cut to allow the wealthy to keep their Bush tax cuts!

But yes, resinding unspent bailout money should certainly be considered -- to cut deficit spending, not to ensure the wealthy get a tax cut.

Borrowing is a way to satisfy the desires of the people who bankroll both parties. Neither party seems to have a problem with that. My wife and I borrowed only as needed and repaid as quickly as possible. We have been married for over 35 years. We have not owed anybody any money for over 20 years. We are not wealthy, nor do we try to emulate the life-styles of the wealthy - we are pragmatists who have lived within our means and resisted the temptation to spend additional income. As we made more money, we saved more and invested more.

Right now, there are no fiscal conservatives at the helm of our government. There is nobody in either party that seems capable of espousing and fighting for conservative fiscal policies. Right now Glenn Hubbard is on PBS, echoing all the GOP blather on how Bush's tax cuts on the wealthy cannot be allowed to expire. He is making NO sense, with no rational argument for how allowing marginal tax rates to return to Clinton-era levels will destroy our economy. Gwen Ifil is a willing participant in this sham-conversation, feeding him GOP softballs over and over.

So much for the "liberal media".

 

[WhoWee]

And speaking of things not happening...the third item on the list, cutting social programs. I can't imagine any politician explaining to retired folks their benefits will be cut to allow the wealthy to keep their Bush tax cuts!

The Dems will have some explaining to do as details continue to leak out regarding "health care reform".
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2010/09/10/113149.htm

"Key Findings
National Health Expenditures:



Health spending in 2010 is projected to reach $2.6 trillion and account for 17.5 percent of GDP, up 0.2 percentage point from pre-reform estimates. This growth is driven in large part by the postponement of cuts to Medicare physician payments and legislative changes to COBRA premium subsidies.

In 2011, public and private health spending is expected to grow more slowly as reductions in Medicare physician payment rates (including a 23-percent reduction in December of 2010) come into effect and COBRA premium subsidies expire.
Health spending is projected to rise significantly in 2014 when health coverage is expanded to millions of uninsured Americans. Expanded coverage means overall spending is expected to increase by 9.2 percent, significantly higher than the 6.6 percent rate put forward in February. Public spending is projected to increase by 9.7 percent in 2014, while private spending is anticipated to increase by 8.6 percent.


Read more: http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2010/09/10/113149.htm#ixzz10Iy25Iq7"

 

[turbo]

The Dems will have some explaining to do as details continue to leak out regarding "health care reform".
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2010/09/10/113149.htm

"Key Findings
National Health Expenditures:



Health spending in 2010 is projected to reach $2.6 trillion and account for 17.5 percent of GDP, up 0.2 percentage point from pre-reform estimates. This growth is driven in large part by the postponement of cuts to Medicare physician payments and legislative changes to COBRA premium subsidies.

In 2011, public and private health spending is expected to grow more slowly as reductions in Medicare physician payment rates (including a 23-percent reduction in December of 2010) come into effect and COBRA premium subsidies expire.
Health spending is projected to rise significantly in 2014 when health coverage is expanded to millions of uninsured Americans. Expanded coverage means overall spending is expected to increase by 9.2 percent, significantly higher than the 6.6 percent rate put forward in February. Public spending is projected to increase by 9.7 percent in 2014, while private spending is anticipated to increase by 8.6 percent.


Read more: http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2010/09/10/113149.htm#ixzz10Iy25Iq7"

You might ask yourself why the GOP fought tooth-and-nail to deny ANY reform, and why they fought to water down the reform to the point that real savings would be difficult to realize. Is the health-insurance industry important to the well-being of our country?

It would be instructive if you can explain how protecting the profits of the insurance companies is critical to the health of our economy.

 

[CRGreathouse]

You might ask yourself why the GOP fought tooth-and-nail to deny ANY reform, and why they fought to water down the reform to the point that real savings would be difficult to realize. Is the health-insurance industry important to the well-being of our country?

It would be instructive if you can explain how protecting the profits of the insurance companies is critical to the health of our economy.

Lovely strawman.

 

[turbo]

Lovely strawman.

So you don't have a cogent response? You cannot deny that it happened (if you paid attention to how the bill even got out of committee and how it was hobbled before it came to the floor). The party of NO will eventually get its comeuppance, if the media will get honest in its coverage. Our government is bought and owned by corporate interests (both parties!), and is disinterested in acting for the common good.

 

[WhoWee]

You might ask yourself why the GOP fought tooth-and-nail to deny ANY reform, and why they fought to water down the reform to the point that real savings would be difficult to realize. Is the health-insurance industry important to the well-being of our country?

It would be instructive if you can explain how protecting the profits of the insurance companies is critical to the health of our economy.

As you know, I deal with these issues on a daily basis. In my professional opinion, you can not increase benefits, increase regulation, and insure all pre-existing conditions without increasing costs.

 

[OmCheeto]

But yes, resinding unspent bailout money should certainly be considered -- to cut deficit spending

What the what??

I just heard the other day that the unspent money was all assigned to future "smart things" to do.

Do you doubt the wisdom of Bill?

 

[lisab]

What the what??

I just heard the other day that the unspent money was all assigned to future "smart things" to do.

Do you doubt the wisdom of Bill?

Lol, future smart things...that made me laugh!

 

[russ_watters]

And speaking of things not happening...the third item on the list, cutting social programs. I can't imagine any politician explaining to retired folks their benefits will be cut to allow the wealthy to keep their Bush tax cuts!

Well no doubt, when SS is inevitably cut, it won't be explained - except by opponents - with such heavily biased language (at least not biased in that direction).

 

[russ_watters]

So you don't have a cogent response?

To a strawman? Why bother? Make a cogent point and you'll get cogent responses. Everything you say here is propaganda. On this particular point, you said:

It would be instructive if you can explain how protecting the profits of the insurance companies is critical to the health of our economy.

And since no one uses that as a justification, there isn't anything to explain.

 

[OmCheeto]

Lol, future smart things...that made me laugh!

Ok. Let's say you get a phone call tomorrow, and Molliemae has cancer.

Let's say the doctor says it will require you to upfront $50k to cure her for life.

What are your choices? Let her die? Or go into debt and let her live a full and productive life?

hmmm...

5 years down the road, your debt is paid, and Molliemae is kicking butt, paying for your retirement.

America is sick right now. We've got a bad assed addiction to oil, and a very expensive medical habit.

Health care has been passed. Might cut a trillion or so from our addiction in the next decade. Let's see where a few hundred extra billion will get us.

After all, a billion divided by 300 million is only about $3.00.

 

[CAC1001]

Raising taxes is not going to stop government growth with the Democrats. They are too tempted to create big government. We could implement the following:

Let ALL the Bush tax cuts expire
Raise the top marginal income tax rate to 50% (like in the UK)
Eliminate the cap on SS taxes
Implement a carbon tax
Implement a VAT tax on everything

Let's pretend a boatload of revenue comes in. I can't prove it, but I would be willing to bet that the government would somehow find a way to spend all of this money and only make the problem worse.

I do not for one second believe the Democrats in government would go, "WOW, look at all of this additional revenue! This is great! Now we can cap government spending completely and put all of this towards paying down the debt and deficit."

Democrats currently have a kind of unique argument when it comes to spending; during prosperous times, when the Treasury is flush with tax revenue, they want to spend boatloads of money because they wholeheartedly believe the solution to every major societal problem is a government program.

Need to fix education? More spending and government.
Need to fix poverty? More spending and government.
Need to fix crime? More spending and government.
Need to fix healthcare? More spending and government.

They seem to ignore that recessions happen and when they do, tax revenues will be slashed. However, in times of recession, Democrats then switch to the:

"The worst thing you can do in a recession is to cut spending. Therefore, we need to increase spending with massive stimulus."

In saying this, they ignore two facets of Keynesian economics:

1) Deficit-spending to stimulate must be temporary, not structural (i.e. you do not use a trillion-dollar stimulus as an excuse to increase the size and scope of government).

2) Once the recession ends, and the economy is prospering, you are to clamp down on spending and become very fiscally-conservative, in order to pay down the deficit and debt you ran up stimulating the economy during the recession. You are not supposed to go and start spending wildly.

So whether the economy is prospering or the economy is in recession, Democrats will always argue for "more spending."

Under Bill Clinton, the Republicans were fiscally-conservative, but then once President Bush won office, they did a 180 and switched to being Big Government Conservatives. We thought the Republicans had set a record with spending, but now the Democrats seem bent on outdoing them.

On the state level, a problem I have read is the public employees unions. These have accounted for a lot of the growth of state budgets. Since the Democrats are beholden to these, we will likely not see any kind of fiscal conservatism in Democrat-run states (or cities or counties either probably) as long as they have influence. The public employees unions do two things:

1) Lobby for increases in the sizes of government programs that employ their members (larger programs = more members)
2) Lobby for whole new government programs to create new government workers
3) Lobby for constant increases in pay, benefits, etc...for the workers.

In the process, they rob the public treasuries of their states and cities and counties. When the fiscally-conservative Republicans end up in control of such states, usually warfare breaks out it seems.

Right now, there are no fiscal conservatives at the helm of our government. There is nobody in either party that seems capable of espousing and fighting for conservative fiscal policies.

And that is why allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire for the top 2% is pointless. The government will just spend the money. There are some people in the Republican party espousing conservative fiscal policies, for example Wisconsin Congressman Paul Ryan, New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, Rick Perry, South Carolina Republican candidate for Governor Nikki Haley, Florida Senate candidate Marco Rubio, etc...

 

[WhoWee]

Ok. Let's say you get a phone call tomorrow, and Molliemae has cancer.

Let's say the doctor says it will require you to upfront $50k to cure her for life.

What are your choices? Let her die? Or go into debt and let her live a full and productive life?

hmmm...

5 years down the road, your debt is paid, and Molliemae is kicking butt, paying for your retirement.

America is sick right now. We've got a bad assed addiction to oil, and a very expensive medical habit.

Health care has been passed. Might cut a trillion or so from our addiction in the next decade. Let's see where a few hundred extra billion will get us.

After all, a billion divided by 300 million is only about $3.00.

If it were only that simple...
http://www.cancer.gov/aboutnci/servingpeople/CostOfCancer

 

[OmCheeto]

So whether the economy is prospering or the economy is in recession, Democrats will always argue for "more spending."

Why is it then that deficit spending goes up under Republican presidents, and down under Democratic presidents?

 

[nismaratwork]

Why is it then that deficit spending goes up under Republican presidents, and down under Democratic presidents?

I'd add to that, how is the DHS 'smaller' government... and 2 wars. *shrug*... I think people still believe the ideology matches the actions, and that just isn't the case.

 

[WhoWee]

Why is it then that deficit spending goes up under Republican presidents, and down under Democratic presidents?

Defense

 

[nismaratwork]

Defense

I believe we can safely characterize Iraq as "offense" in every sense of the word...

 

[WhoWee]

I believe we can safely characterize Iraq as "offense" in every sense of the word...

...
I thought everyone accepted that:
Dems increase spending on social programs (get more votes) and cut defense when possible.
Repubs invest in defense and try to control runaway social spending.

 

[nismaratwork]

...
I thought everyone accepted that:
Dems increase spending on social programs (get more votes) and cut defense when possible.
Repubs invest in defense and try to control runaway social spending.

I would say that Dems funnel money to their base, which includes AARP, unions and more (therefore, social programs are part of the vehicle), and Republicans do the same for their donors... defense contractors, big-pharma. Each diverts money from the opponent's buddies to their own, and what you've described the narrative that each uses.

 

[WhoWee]

...and we wonder why the TEA party is so popular?

 

[rolerbe]

Whack all those 'rich' people?

Just for perspective, I took my first salary after graduating in 1980 (one for which NOONE would accuse me of being rich) and accelerated it assuming 3% average rate of inflation (for which I have references), and determined that my current salary -- for which I will certainly be smacked as 'rich' constituted a 2.6% average annual increase (over the inflation adjust).

Labelled as 'rich' and penalized for it? Not right. Just not right.

 

[nismaratwork]

...and we wonder why the TEA party is so popular?

Oh, I get the attraction of anything other than the ****wits who run our country now, but I don't think the solution is a slightly different flavor of ****wit. The tea party is popular because a monolithic conservative message is easier to package and disseminate than a more nuanced message which adapts to circumstances.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The only President to actually reduce our debt to GDP ratio, since Carter, was Clinton.

That's thirty years of evidence. I've seen enough. Cite all the theories that you want, we have the evidence.

Beyond that, eight years of Republican control, and thirty years of supply-side economics led to the biggest economic disaster since the depression. Now the right complains about what it takes to fix the mess. Now I've really seen enough.

 

[turbo]

Oh, I get the attraction of anything other than the ****wits who run our country now, but I don't think the solution is a slightly different flavor of ****wit. The tea party is popular because a monolithic conservative message is easier to package and disseminate than a more nuanced message which adapts to circumstances.

It's easy to understand the "taxed enough already" appeal to people who haven't thought through the consequences of keeping the Bush tax cuts. First of all, most people in the lower to middle classes are wage-earners, so the IRS has long-established methods of ensuring the withholding of payroll taxes.

What about the top 1-2%? Are they drawing paychecks against which payroll taxes can be applied? Many derive most of their income from trading in investments, collecting dividends, and getting capital gains, and there are lots of ways available to them to offset taxable income with losses, defer capital gains, etc to minimize their tax liability. The Tea-Party members will probably call you a liar or ignore you if you say that the wealthy will benefit disproportionately from an across-the-board extension of the Bush tax cuts, simply because they don't know what the Bush tax cuts entailed, and who benefits from them. Getting people to vote against their own best interests is easy if they remain willfully ignorant.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Extend the tax breaks for the middle class. Give tax breaks for the rich and corporations, but only for domestic investment. The R&D tax credit is a start.

 

[WhoWee]

Extend the tax breaks for the middle class. Give tax breaks for the rich and corporations, but only for domestic investment. The R&D tax credit is a start.

I could not agree more - with regards to a focus on tax credits that reward domestic investment.

We need to stimulate private sector investment - for industries other than defense.