Should You Pursue a Physics PhD? Advice from Brian Schwartz

[HallsofIvy]

Things don't stay the same. I was at University of Florida when "Aeros-space" engineering was big. My last year there (1972) the aerospace department advised all majors who were not yet seniors to change their major!

 

[Gokul43201]

Like I said, I expect that PhDs in pretty much all fields of science have low unemployment rates. However, that doesn't mean that PhDs in physics or biology are getting jobs with the job title "physicist" or "biologist", if you can live with that, then OK. Also, how many work as temps?

I do not personally know anyone that has graduated from my department in the last 5 years has not been employed within physics or an interdisciplinary area between physics and engineering as an initial appointent (this is not to say that there aren't any - but they're likely a small fraction). Also see the AIP stats - only 14% of Physics PHDs that are beyond their postdoc appointments work in areas outside of physics.

A LOT Phds get jobs only as temps (and therefore aren't considered unemployed). I read science and nature everyweek, and I have seen several articles published by PhDs describing what it is like to move from job to job as a temp.

I do not know of a single student from my department that got hired as a temp. Are you referring to a postdoc as a temp?

2/3 of PhDs get a postdoc? No one really wants to be a postdoc.

Are you kidding? The majority of Physics PHDs WANTS a postdoc once they graduate. I know folks that very reluctantly accepted jobs at Intel because they couldn't land a good postdoc appointment. There are, however, people that accept a postdoc only because they couldn't land a permanent position. This fraction makes up a minority among the postdocs.

Sure you get experience, but you are missing out on things like higher income and stuff like stock options and retirement benefits that you would get if a company hired you.

You don't go into physics for stock options!

Then after you spend 4-5 years of doing a post doc comes the game of competing with a horde of other PhDs in industry trying to get the same job as you.

Your chemistry perspective is completely warping your input here. Many (probably a majority of) physics PHDs PREFER to go into academia so they have the freedom to pursue research of their interest. If I can not land a good postdoc (and subsequently, a good academic/national lab position) I'll consider going into industry.

All the stuff that I posted before was in reference to pursuing a PhD to work in industry, not academia. So out of the 50 post grads from your school 3 are postdocs in govt labs and 7 hired full time in government labs. 9 were actually employed in industry. That's great, but don't they worry just a tad in the government labs?

I government lab position is a dream position for many physicists, as it balances between the funding squeeze felt by academia and the loss of research freedom and intellectual density in industry.

The economy is already looking like it is going south due to the housing bubble that is going to explode in our faces, there is a good chance the upcoming recession could be quite severe.

All the more reason to be worried about getting a job in the private sector.

... since my company is about to go bankrupt...

There - that should provide some perspective. When was the last time that DOE or NSF or NIH went bankrupt? How often does a government lab (Los Alamos, Argonne, Lawrence Livermore, Oakridge, etc.) shut down and fire all its employees?

Currently about half of all physics PHDs eventually go into industry and this fraction has an upward trend (up by about 20% since 1970). While there are a large number that prefer working in industry, many often take an industry position only because they can not land the highly competitive positions in academia and the national labs.

http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/reports/careerphd.pdf

 

[Ki Man]

its great that i did post this up...more people are now aggreing with my, that to do a phd in physics is not such a good idea after all..

SO you come into a forum dedicated to PHYSICS, post an outdated article about why people SHOULD NOT DO PHYSICS as a PhD, start a debate on whether a PhD will be worth it in the end, which then became a debate on whether physics is a reasonable major at all, which then became a debate between academia vs industry, and people are now starting to turn away from their dreams of becoming professors.

And you are proud of this?

 

[colin.mcenroe]

I don't know if others would agree, but I think it is better to decide before you give your life to something. I wouldn't say that this thread has crushed any dreams, but perhaps in a more optimistic light made me aware that a masters may be all I need to work in industry (I never wanted to be a professor anyway). I would be much happier to start working in my career and start a family than to give over 3-4 years to finish a phd that will give me little advantage in an industry position. I personally love school, but at the same time I can't wait to work 9-5 and be done when I get home from work.

 

[colin.mcenroe]

There - that should provide some perspective. When was the last time that DOE or NSF or NIH went bankrupt? How often does a government lab (Los Alamos, Argonne, Lawrence Livermore, Oakridge, etc.) shut down and fire all its employees?

I know a couple of people that work for Lawrence Livermore. One of them said that the last layoff was ~35 years ago. And he also said that the current generation is starting to retire, so new positions will be opening in the future.

 

[Ki Man]

I don't know if others would agree, but I think it is better to decide before you give your life to something. I wouldn't say that this thread has crushed any dreams

ok maybe that was a wee bit of an exageration...

 

[Cyrus]

ok maybe that was a wee bit of an exageration...

It was.

Text

 

[Ki Man]

yeah.. over exagerating...

I'm still going to go into physics once i go into college. oney problems i can work around with outside jobs and tutoring for money, its the field that really matters to me.

If i was in it for the money, I'd be a stock broker

 

[mathwonk]

i think he is pulling our legs in this thread. to see how long we will react.

 

[arunma]

SO you come into a forum dedicated to PHYSICS, post an outdated article about why people SHOULD NOT DO PHYSICS as a PhD, start a debate on whether a PhD will be worth it in the end, which then became a debate on whether physics is a reasonable major at all, which then became a debate between academia vs industry, and people are now starting to turn away from their dreams of becoming professors.

And you are proud of this?

If it's any encouragement, I'm one person who's been following this thread, and who has no intention to alter his plan to become a physics professor. Those of us who've finished our BS degrees in physics have a small taste of the ardurous nature of the PhD program, and if that didn't dissuade us, then a thread on an Internet forum won't do so either. Heck, just studying for my PhD qualifying exam is driving me crazy right now. If I didn't like physics so much, I'd have ditched it a long time ago, thread or no thread.

 

[ZapperZ]

If it's any encouragement, I'm one person who's been following this thread, and who has no intention to alter his plan to become a physics professor. Those of us who've finished our BS degrees in physics have a small taste of the ardurous nature of the PhD program, and if that didn't dissuade us, then a thread on an Internet forum won't do so either. Heck, just studying for my PhD qualifying exam is driving me crazy right now. If I didn't like physics so much, I'd have ditched it a long time ago, thread or no thread.

Or you can look at it this way. With people being scared away from doing Physics and/or pursuing a Ph.D in physics due to this thread, there's an even greater chance of you finding a suitable job.

Zz.

 

[J77]

Or you can look at it this way. With people being scared away from doing Physics and/or pursuing a Ph.D in physics due to this thread, there's an even greater chance of you finding a suitable job.

If you browse the thread... however, I can see no definite reason -- other than some personal opinions -- as to why one should not Do PhD In Physics!

Having just written that, I now see one very good reason to bin this thread...

...an ungrammatical title

 

[fasterthanjoao]

...bin this thread...

yep. All going well, I'm still going to do my Ph.D.

 

[Ki Man]

I think we should go with ZZ and change this from "dont do a phd in physics" to "the challenges of getting a science phd"

I'm still going to go into physics. the only thing this thread made me do is consider tutoring for some extra cash but no way I'm not doing physics

 

[mathwonk]

this a strange thread. as i have said, i was a meat lugger in south boston before doing a phd in algebraic geometry and becoming a prof.

i can tell you doing a phd and becoming a prof is easier than curing the cuts on your arms every night from the hooks in the meat, and wondering when you are going to get stabbed.

the academic life is a wonderful life, a dream world of learning and teaching and sharing knowledge.

if you want an internship in a lucrative field, go on "apprentice" and kiss donald trump's ass.

phds are not for sissies. Listen to Zz, not the hangers on.

 

[Ki Man]

So what kind of person would it take to be the one out of the group of aposers to make it as a PhD. Is love for the science and determination enough to get you somewhere?

 

[TMFKAN64]

How many PhD scientists do you know of that have worked at theSAME job at the SAME company for 10-15+ years?

Maybe this is just the computer industry, but I don't know *anyone* who has worked at the SAME job at the SAME company for 10-15+ years.

And maybe this is just me, but I'd find doing the same thing day after day incredibly boring.

 

[mathwonk]

what do you mean by get somewhere? spending your time thinking about what you love is alredy getting somewhere pretty nice.

 

[ZapperZ]

Maybe this is just the computer industry, but I don't know *anyone* who has worked at the SAME job at the SAME company for 10-15+ years.

And maybe this is just me, but I'd find doing the same thing day after day incredibly boring.

... and maybe that's the difference between research work, especially in physics, and the computer industry. Someone could be at a particular job for 20, 30 years, and would not be doing the "same thing". No one in that position is hired to do the same, repeated work. The whole point of being a research scientist is to work on things that are not well-known, not discovered, not explained, and beyond our present understanding. In my 10+ years doing research, I've gone from doing tunneling spectroscopy to photoemission spectroscopy to accelerator physics. Many people here at Argonne who have been here 15, 20 years (we have an rf engineer here in our group who will be at Argonne for 45 years this Sept.) who have a huge variety of work that they have done that it'll make your head spins.

I can say without a single shread of doubt that each of my day at work is never routine, mindless grind.

Zz.

 

[mathwonk]

I am going out on a limb here, but I will suggest that last comment is partly Zapper's attitude toward his work. If you look for something interesting everyday to think about and discuss, you will be more likely to find it than if you do not. All jobs are like that.

You can just grade calc papers and complain, as a prof, or you can think about how to make the material more interesting, and think of ways to make it more clear, or more connected to other subjects.

You can attend seminars in other areas and stimulate your mind or just hole up in your office. Take an interest in your work and in that of others and it will become more interesting.

 

[ptabor]

Thank you to wonk and Zz for providing some shred of insight in this otherwise convoluted rant.

 

[muppet]

Seconded

 

[G01]

It seems this thread may be turning around. If it doesn't I vote that we just let it die already.

 

[zcapa91]

a few people at least are also from the UK and it seems that prospects here are better.

one major difference is that it is standard here to complete a bsc in 3 years and a phd in 3-4 years with the possibility of 'skipping' the msc which only takes 1 year here anyway. in the usa i believe a bsc takes 4yrs and that a phd takes 5 years where you complete an msc dissertation after 2 years. In terms of entering industry i think this 'saved' time is very important.

purely financially things seem more favourable aswell. There is a TAX FREE stipend available of at least £12k (~$24k) plus any teaching work etc you take on. Although you are still paying interest on student debts and you are not earning as much as peers who may have directly entered employment the financial gap between phd students and those who are not should be narrower.

 

[littlephoenix]

Or you can look at it this way. With people being scared away from doing Physics and/or pursuing a Ph.D in physics due to this thread, there's an even greater chance of you finding a suitable job.

Zz.

explain what a suitable job is, where we can find such jobs, city, state, working for boeing etc. ?

 

[Norman]

please close this thread...

Why is it constantly being resurrected?

What ZapperZ means by a suitable job is a job for which your Ph.D. in physics has prepared you. Is a person in geophysics going to work for boeing... maybe, probably not.

 

[imy786]

what kind of salary do you get if you do a PHD in physics or maths?

 

[arunma]

what kind of salary do you get if you do a PHD in physics or maths?

Here's some figures from my department:

My advisor, who is tenured faculty, makes $90,000/year. My quantum professor (also tenured) makes approximately the same. One of the other professors in my research group, who I think is non-tenured, makes $80,000/year. Our department's chair and the other three distinguished professors make $136,000/year. The lecturer I TA for makes only $30,000/year. She has a PhD in physics, but she only lectures for the intro-level courses, and doesn't do research. The other lecturers in my department make about the same. Interestingly though, all of them but one are married to professors. I think when a professor who's married to another physicist gets employed at my department, they'll also offer a lecture position to his (or her, in one case) spouse.

So why the disparity? I guess that the PhD itself won't guarantee a specific salary, since this is determined by what you choose to do afterwards. Maybe someone on the other side of graduate school can explain this to me.

Oh incidentally, if you're wondering how I know all my professors' salaries, it's because a newspaper in our state put together an online database of all state employee's earnings. It was really fun when another TA and I were proctoring an exam with one of the researchers. We got on my laptop and literally looked up his salary behind his back.

 

[imy786]

lol that's really useful advice...but the salary will vary compared to UK.
if the TA is getting $30,000/year.thats about 15,000 pounds.
so after all those years of study and to gain a PHD receiving only 15000 pounds in first job is not ideal...i would think/assume they would get about at least 25,000 pounjds to lecutre= $50,000.

 

[arunma]

lol that's really useful advice...but the salary will vary compared to UK.
if the TA is getting $30,000/year.thats about 15,000 pounds.
so after all those years of study and to gain a PHD receiving only 15000 pounds in first job is not ideal...i would think/assume they would get about at least 25,000 pounjds to lecutre= $50,000.

Just some clarifications.

First, it's not the TAs who make $30,000/year. This is the lecture professors' salaries (actually most of them make $40,000). Us TAs make about $19,000/year, and that's only if you include the salaries from our summer research positions. Also I should point out that the lecturer position isn't a first job. Typically grad students will become postdocs after they graduate, which will give them an approximate salary of $40,000/year. After that comes a tenure-track faculty position, which at my school pays about $60,000 to $80,000/year at my department. The lecture position seems to be more of a job for wives and husbands of faculty, since it isn't tenure-track.

Well, hope that helps!

 

[Astronuc]

what kind of salary do you get if you do a PHD in physics or maths?

That probably depends on the area of one's research and dissertation. Twenty years ago, one of my colleagues got job offers on the of $50-60K (US) with his PhD. Nowadays it's 60K and above just coming out of school.

Someone who does sophisticated analyses could probably get $70K (US) and above.

Fields where there is heavy demand and short supply could conceivably get $80-100 K.


A young employee with a MS degree and about 3 years experience was able to get offers of ~$80K, because there is a shortage in the industry in which he is working.

 

[imy786]

1.what industry is that?

also 2.what industry is most profitable right now?
and.
3. what would be best advisable to go to after a BSC in Physics

3 questions

 

[Astronuc]

1.what industry is that?

also 2.what industry is most profitable right now?
and.
3. what would be best advisable to go to after a BSC in Physics

3 questions

Answer to 1. is nuclear industry.

Even the most profitable industries are cyclical.

I'm not sure what is meant by the 3rd question.


At the moment, I would recommend a diverse academic background. Certainly cover as many areas in physics as possible, e.g. QM, solid state, EM, . . . . But I would recommend getting some experience in computational physics and simulation. The hot thing now is Multiphysics codes and the ability to do simulations of complicated systems. Of course, if there is a particular area of interest, one can specialize in that area, while developing a diverse experience.

I should point out that my company prefers to hire MS/PhD's, but we'd consider someone with a BS if they had talent and were interested in pursuing MS/PhD.

 

[imy786]

q3 what would be the best advisable career.

a. money wise
b. most enjoyable
c. not sooo stressful

 

[Astronuc]

For a and b go hand in hand. I wouldn't stay in a job if I didn't like it. My salary is excellent.

The work can get stressful at times because what I do is very challenging - pushing the envelope and going beyond the state-of-the-art.

But then I have a lot of fun too.