Skeptical Approaches: Exploring the Two Camps of Scientific Skepticism

[LogicalAtheist]

...In addition, I don't normally tell atheists it's a good idea to read scientific texts that disprove all the major religions.

In the case here, since I see so many atheists (and wonderful to see you) that usually agree there's no proof to the claim god exists, but who also claim that no evidence against God (of any type) exists.

Becuase I see this, I would highly suggest you atheists learn of the logical, statistical, and scientific evidence towards the claim that no god of any type whatsoever exists.

I can provide some links if you wish to amazon.com books I know of...

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Yes Tom. And my point is that you say exactly:

"I am an atheist because there is no evidence supporting the existence of any God."

But why is it that you have chosen not what my definition is:

"I am an atheist because there is no evidence supporting the existence of any God, and there is evidence supporting the claim that no God exists."

You say you are versed on logic stats and science. I will assume this is true, then how is it you have not taken this to work against the religious claims?

Just no interest? I understand if one doesn't want to look at the "case against a God". It's a choice, but from one atheist to another I just don't see why one would choose that.

 

[BoulderHead]

Tom I disagree. There is NO evidence for the claim that any of the Gods in mythological texts exists.

LA, it is often a difficult task to make yourself understood perfectly in a forum, and so you have to word things as carefully as possible to present your position. Looking at the above text you are claiming that no evidence exists for the claim that certain mythological gods exist. In truth, you can go to any church where someone will prove this untrue.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Well, if you claim to “know” that ‘He’ exists then I would wonder why you are so quick to repeatedly point out that we must take everything on ‘faith’’ (as you defined it earlier). If you make the claim because deep down you want God to exist, then of course you would likely be only fooling yourself.
So what I’m wondering about is your level of skeptism.

I don't accept anything based upon somebody else's say so, especially when it comes to something like this. Neither do I expect anyone else to do differently. It doesn't mean a damn thing to hear it come from someone else's lips ... unless of course you have the "ear to hear," meaning you know your stuff.

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
LA, it is often a difficult task to make yourself understood perfectly in a forum, and so you have to word things as carefully as possible to present your position. Looking at the above text you are claiming that no evidence exists for the claim that certain mythological gods exist. In truth, you can go to any church where someone will prove this untrue.

First off, you spliced my words and changed the meaning.

Secondly, even if that statement was my own, WHAT?

I can go to a church where someone will show me evidence that a God exists?

1. What are you smoking..

or

2. Is this some magical Harry Potter church?

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
I don't accept anything based upon somebody else's say so, especially when it comes to something like this. Neither do I expect anyone else to do differently. It doesn't mean a damn thing to hear it come from someone else's lips ... unless of course you have the "ear to hear," meaning you know your stuff.

Great! Now, are you making any claims of 'knowing', or are you still taking everything on faith?

 

[quantumdude]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
You say you are versed on logic stats and science. I will assume this is true, then how is it you have not taken this to work against the religious claims?

I don't think that any math, science, or logic has anything to say on the subject. The religious claims is basically that god exists both within and above the natural universe. They claim that it has the power to suspend and even break its laws.

How on Earth does one use math, science, and logic to falsify the unfalsifiable?

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Well the question is loaded. It is falsifiable. I think there is one common error that people make when they attempt to speak about

"The existence or non-existance of God"

To say "God (with all it's parameters) exists" is to make a claim.

This claim is in a few books, let's say the bible.

The bible is an individually published text.

The bible makes this claim.

The bible provides all the parameters of (this particular) God.

If logic can show that the parameters of this god are logically impossible, because of logic itself, or because of science, then this God (defined as being identical to all these paramaters) cannot exist.

 

[quantumdude]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
If logic can show that the parameters of this god are logically impossible, because of logic itself, or because of science, then this God (defined as being identical to all these paramaters) cannot exist.

First, let's just assume you're right here. You've disproven the god of the Bible. That means: one down, infinity to go. The human mind can conjure up an endless parade of gods for you to disprove; attacking the Bible does not disprove the concept in general. A Muslim, for instance, would not feel threatened by that disproof.

Second, you aren't really showing me anything here. You simply said "it is falsifiable", without pointing out the falsifying property of it. I maintain that the concept of a being that can manipulate the very laws (those of science) by which you seek to disprove it is unfalsifiable.

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
First off, you spliced my words and changed the meaning.

I thought I had used your exact words when I quoted you. With regard to the meaning, I simply misunderstood it. After reading it again I see where I went wrong, sorry.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Great! Now, are you making any claims of 'knowing', or are you still taking everything on faith?

Faith is very much a part of knowing. In fact it's the beginning of knowing. I put faith in everything that makes sense to me, and practically discount everything that comes out of the mouths of others, that is until I have a means by which to ascertain it for myself. This is how one learns to "know" for oneself. Now does that sound unreasonable? And what was kerrie saying questioning everything?

And really what it all boils down to is that nobody is going to tell me how to think, period. Otherwise there would be no freedom.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
No, I'm just saying some things you just have to see and/or experience for yourself. Like falling in love for instance. How can you possibly objectify an experience like that? (not without rending it to pieces anyway).

On the other hand, giving it some sort of magical element is somewhat unfounded.

 

[LogicalAtheist]

Originally posted by Zero
On the other hand, giving it some sort of magical element is somewhat unfounded.

Exactly. because it feels so strange it needs a strange and luxurious answer.

Love is just an electrochemical response. Humans are NOTHING but electrochemical entities. Not a shred of evidence to propose anything else out of the infinite amount of obscure pseudo-scientific blabber.

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Faith is very much a part of knowing. In fact it's the beginning of knowing. I put faith in everything that makes sense to me, and practically discount everything that comes out of the mouths of others, that is until I have a means by which to ascertain it for myself. This is how one learns to "know" for oneself. Now does that sound unreasonable? And what was kerrie saying questioning everything?

I see this circle of faith-belief-knowing. I can't put my finger on it tonight but it makes the hair stand up on the palm of hand.

And really what it all boils down to is that nobody is going to tell me how to think, period. Otherwise there would be no freedom.

Uh, what if somebody showed you a better way to think...would you still refuse?

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Zero
On the other hand, giving it some sort of magical element is somewhat unfounded.

What are saying love is magical? Oh, then that must mean magic does exist. In which case why can't God be described as magical as well? (at least in this respect).

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
I see this circle of faith-belief-knowing. I can't put my finger on it tonight but it makes the hair stand up on the palm of hand.

Uh, what if somebody showed you a better way to think...would you still refuse?

Habits are the end of compassion and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;
Belief is a colorful hope or fear,
The beginning of folly.
The sage goes by harmony, not by hope;
She dwells in the fruit, not the flower;
She accepts substance,
And does not put abstractions on a pedestal.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
I see this circle of faith-belief-knowing. I can't put my finger on it tonight but it makes the hair stand up on the palm of hand.

What are you turning into a werewolf or something?

Of course I have to admit a werewolf is very much a mythological creature, that is unless it originally had something to do with getting rabies or something?

Uh, what if somebody showed you a better way to think...would you still refuse?

Do you mean like with a gun pointed at my head or something?

Now how is that possible? I've been thinking for myself for so many years now ... Whereas if somebody really wanted show me a better way, they had better be willing to put their money where their mouth is. That's all I can say.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Iacchus32

Originally posted by Zero
On the other hand, giving it some sort of magical element is somewhat unfounded.

What are you saying love is magical? Oh, then that must mean magic does exist. In which case why can't God be described as magical as well? (at least in this respect).

From the thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2391" ...

Originally posted by Iacchus32

Originally posted by Alexander
We recently (during last ~100 years) learned that Big Bang was (and still is) the creator of the universe. Then what?

But doesn't that imply God had a mistress? Hey maybe that's the problem? If we understood that God was sexual in nature, as the whole of nature might suggest, then maybe we wouldn't be so afraid of Him/Her? We might even learn to take it as a great gift.

And what did God say in the Garden of Eden? ... "Be fruitful, and multiply!"

Actually this has just about everything to do with it. For when considering that men and women by themselves are only half of the equation, and that "wholeness" (and hence God) can only be achieved when the two "reciprocal halves" are united as a whole, then it stands to reason that this becomes a means by which to discover God. Or else why would the church make a holy sacrament out of marriage? (drawing focus on the "interior" relationship between men and women). In which case I think the sense of worship towards God, becomes manifest through the love of another human being (interiorly).

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
What are saying love is magical? Oh, then that must mean magic does exist. In which case why can't God be described as magical as well? (at least in this respect).

No, I am saying that emotions are simply manefestatiosn of biological processes. They don't 'exist' any more than Spider-Man exists.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
And really what it all boils down to is that nobody
is going to tell me how to think, period. Otherwise
there would be no freedom.

What about the dude/gal who told you:
- "Hey, there's an all powerfull thingy called God."
and you answered:
- "Oh, really ? O.K."

Live long and prosper.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Zero
No, I am saying that emotions are simply manefestatiosn of biological processes. They don't 'exist' any more than Spider-Man exists.

In other words they're useless, right? Have you told this to your mother lately? Or your wife? Or daughter? Or girlfriend? Hey this is the other half of the equation man ... and, unless we learn how to cultivate both a healthy intellectual state and, a healthy emotional state, we remain "unbalanced," and chances are we "won't" find God.

You weren't by any chance in the Marines were you?

Of course I think the key to a healthy emotional state is not to allow them to sway us (unduly), but rather keep them in context with what we understand, otherwise I don't see how anybody could be happy? Which, is the key to finding God, learning how to complete oneself (through understanding your other side) and, be happy.

Should it be any more complicated than this? I don't think so. Otherwise how could we be happy?

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by drag
What about the dude/gal who told you:
- "Hey, there's an all powerfull thingy called God."
and you answered:
- "Oh, really ? O.K."

Live long and prosper.

I think the best thing you can do is teach a person how to see things for themselves, for if you can't see for yourself, how can you come to accept anything? Indeed it was the same person who taught me how to do this that taught me about God. And now I'm not even "subject" to what they have to say. Isn't that something?

Of course there's the rest of the world that you have to deal with, but what you think, does not have to rely upon "what they think."

 

[BoulderHead]

Sounds like drag hit it on the head.

I think the best thing you can do is teach a person how to see things for themselves, for if you can't see for yourself, how can you come to accept anything?

Blind faith?

Indeed it was the same person who taught me how to do this that taught me about God.

Ok, did he teach you how to think or did he teach you how to think about god?

And now I'm not even "subject" to what they have to say.

Who, exactly, is they?

Isn't that something?

Indeed !

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
In other words they're useless, right? Have you told this to your mother lately? Or your wife? Or daughter? Or girlfriend? Hey this is the other half of the equation man ... and, unless we learn how to cultivate both a healthy intellectual state and, a healthy emotional state, we remain "unbalanced," and chances are we "won't" find God.

You weren't by any chance in the Marines were you?

Of course I think the key to a healthy emotional state is not to allow them to sway us (unduly), but rather keep them in context with what we understand, otherwise I don't see how anybody could be happy? Which, is the key to finding God, learning how to complete oneself (through understanding your other side) and, be happy.

Should it be any more complicated than this? I don't think so. Otherwise how could we be happy?

Emotions are subjective, and have no reality besides what we give them.

My emotional state is just fine...and doesn't need made up 'gods' to keep it that way.

 

[Royce]

All science is based on a number of unproveable assumptions.
One such assumption is that the physical laws are the same everywhere in the universe.
Yet scientist everywhere know that physical laws are not the same inside the event horizon of a black hole.
Another such assumption is that Physical reality exists and that we can know and learn about it.
Yet scientists everywhere say that we cannot know anything prior to the big bang nor anything outside our light cones.
Belief in unproveable assumption in this thread and many others has been call faith.
Yet many of you atheist deny faith in anything and that faith itself is illogical.
I have never seen an electron yet I take it to be a reality because others have told me and shown me proof on paper; but, they have never shown me an electron. This is faith.
Deny it as much as you like but you will never convince me that you don't have faith in something even if it is in science and scientist.

You and I both agree to believe in many things that we don't fully understand and have never personally experienced based on the work and publications of a few scientist whose work as lay people we could never fully understand.
Yet you deny and refuse to believe one word of what millions of good honest sincere people have said that they have experienced personally
and a system of belif that is vertually universal with mankind and has been around for well over ten thousand years.
This is consistant, logical thinking? I don't think so.
Science is the first to say that it has proven very little completely, descively and beyound any possiblity of error or doubt.
Science also admits that for every answer that they do find it opens up a thousand new questions. They also admit that they study and investigate the external physical world of matter and energy. They do not and can not look at the internal and subjective. This is why science does not and can not disprove any religion. Religion is internal and subjective. All of you scientfic and logical atheist are looking in the wrong place for your God. That is why you can't find him. He isn't in a textbook or even the bible. He isn't under a microscope or out in space. He, if he exists, is inside you and me and all of us. There are those who believe that we are also inside him. That all that exists is of God and as long as you insist on looking at the trees you will never see the forest that is God. Some of you vehemently deny any possible existence of God. That you studied the issue once and walked away forever. If that is so why are you here and why are you so often found in the religion forum and why do you always bring up God even in a thread about philosophical skeptism?

 

[Zero]

Hmmm...I don't believe in faith. I can accept assumptions based on evidence. There is no solid evidence for the existence of gods or ghosts, some small amount of evidence for certain herbal remedies, and tons of evidence that the natural laws aren't going to reverse themselves in teh next tne minutes. Mystical thinking(including religion and pseudoscience) seems to me to be based on special exceptions to the rules that cannot be repeated upon request. I can drop any object less dense than air from where i am sitting, and I can accept the logical assumption that it will fall, like every other object I have dropped has done. That form of faith has nothing to do with teh sort of faith that allows people to talk to teh sky and expect a response.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Zero
Emotions are subjective, and have no reality besides what we give them.

Except that they add color to what is an otherwise black and white world. Now you tell me which is more real? A world without emotions? Or, a world with emotions?

Also, you can't say you don't "believe" in faith, because that's a statement of faith right there. While the same holds true when accepting "an assumption."

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Except that they add color to what is an otherwise black and white world. Now you tell me which is more real? A world without emotions? Or, a world with emotions?

Also, you can't say you don't "believe" in faith, because that's a statement of faith right there. While the same holds true when accepting "an assumption."

Emotions are great...subjectively[/i]! They are nonexistant in a real, material sense. I base my persona; existence on that, in part, but I make no claims about emotion having any effect on the real world.

As far as 'faith'...I think I spelled out my voiews on it rather clearly. I have 'faith' in repeatable, confirmed concepts, like gravity. Everyday, gravity has a concrete effect on everything I see around me. I don't claim to know how it works, but it does. I don't have faith in myths or magic tricks, that only 'work' if you are gullible...I mean 'if you believe'. Gravity works whether I believe in it or not.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Blind faith?

Then what have you actually accepted, except perhaps "a phantom?"

Ok, did he teach you how to think or did he teach you how to think about god?

He taught me a lot of things, some of which weren't true, which I ultimately had to pay the price for. And yet he did teach me how to see things for myself as well as acknowledge God.

Who, exactly, is they?

Right wing religious conservative type, Roy Masters, who's just a little bit too conservative for me ... http://www.fhu.com/

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Royce

Science is the first to say that it has proven very little completely, descively and beyound any possiblity of error or doubt.
Science also admits that for every answer that they do find it opens up a thousand new questions. They also admit that they study and investigate the external physical world of matter and energy. They do not and can not look at the internal and subjective. This is why science does not and can not disprove any religion.

This is also why we can trust science, and not trust religion. Religion claims to have all the answers, despite any proof to teh contrary. Science accepts its limitations, and is therefore an honest endeavor.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Zero
This is also why we can trust science, and not trust religion. Religion claims to have all the answers, despite any proof to teh contrary. Science accepts its limitations, and is therefore an honest endeavor.

Do you mean like turning people's skins into lampshades? ... Or Chernobyl? ... The development of weapons of mass destruction? ... Ex-foliating South East Asia with Agent Orange? ... Releasing toxic wastes and bio-hazards into the eco-system?

These are all by-products of science by the way.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Do you mean like turning people's skins into lampshades? ... Or Chernobyl? ... The development of weapons of mass destruction? ... Ex-foliating South East Asia with Agent Orange? ... Releasing toxic wastes and bio-hazards into the eco-system?

These are all by-products of science by the way.

No, one was the result of madness, one was poor engineering, and the last two are more political than anything else. Religion, however, is responsible for more death than any other cause in human history.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Zero
No, one was the result of madness, one was poor engineering, and the last two are more political than anything else. Religion, however, is responsible for more death than any other cause in human history.

And where was science through all of this, with its thumb stuck up its rear?

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by Zero
No, one was the result of madness, one was poor engineering, and the last two are more political than anything else. Religion, however, is responsible for more death than any other cause in human history.

Hitler-18 million

Stalin-22 million

Mao-26 million

If I have to choose between being killed by religious or secular political fanatics it just isn't a choice imo. Ghangus Khan killed millions as well, but never claimed religion was the reason. Many who have claimed religion as a reason were obviously lying. What has undeniably killed more people in history than anything else is fundamentalism, whether secular or religious.

To be fair, it has also promoted the growth of the sciences and saved a huge number of lives as well. No doubt without it the world's population might still be a mere six million instead of billion.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
And where was science through all of this, with its thumb stuck up its rear?

Science isn't sopposed to solve social problems...religion claims to be that solution, and very obviously isn't. Science doesn't claim to be more than it is, religion does.