So, can we see a cube instead of sphere?

[Eagle9]

<mentor - Epistemology (how do we know or perceive) is not subject PF supports in the science forums - moved to General Discussion>

Since my previous topic The arrangement of our visual system and the objective truth was closed I will open a new one, less philosophical.
So, just imagine that our/human visual system is arranged in a bit different way - let’s assume that visual cortex has 9 layers, that visual information flows to layer 1 (outermost layer), then it goes to layer 5, then to 7 and etc.

And there is a sphere/ball in front of us:

Can anybody tell me – what would we see? Or in other words – is there possibility that I/we would see cube, cylinder or any other objects?

If YES, it is very sad. Actually it means that there could be an infinite amount of our visions about our universe and none of them are reliable (or on the contrary – all of them are reliable and equivalent), right?

 

[DaveC426913]

You shouldn't talking about shapes, which are contrived (interpreted) by the mind.

All that really matters to our study of the world is that light rays follow straight lines (or curve in expected ways).

Example: refraction occurs over bodies of water, producing mirages, but as long as we know what to expect, we can still get good data, even if the naively visual image is misrepresentative.

 

[jim mcnamara]

Try synesthesia -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4265978/

Seeing or perceiving something other than what is defined to be there by everyone else.

 

[PeterDonis]

imagine that our/human visual system is arranged in a bit different way - let’s assume that visual cortex has 9 layers, that visual information flows to layer 1 (outermost layer), then it goes to layer 5, then to 7 and etc.

I don't see how this vague, hand-waving description allows us to make any prediction about what we would see.

Do you have any knowledge about how the actual visual system in actual human brains works? If not, you might start by learning some.

 

[jim mcnamara]

How about 'language affects color perception' - here is a blog about the Himba language speakers' abilities to differentiate between shades of green us Westerners have a lot of trouble seeing.

https://www.gondwana-collection.com/blog/how-do-namibian-himbas-see-colour/

BTW - @PeterDonis is correct - your question is hand-wavy to the point where I cannot see a rational answer.
You really should consider taking a class in Epistemology. -- the study of how we know and how we cannot know some things. Or try reading:
Books --
Bertrand Russell 'The Problems of Philosophy'
Routledge series 'Epistemology'

 

[waternohitter]

I don't see how this vague, hand-waving description allows us to make any prediction about what we would see.

Do you have any knowledge about how the actual visual system in actual human brains works? If not, you might start by learning some.

Hello, PeterDonis. I'm sorry for asking this but do you have any sites that you can recommend on learning it? I haven't actually known it yet.

 

[DaveC426913]

Hello, PeterDonis. I'm sorry for asking this but do you have any sites that you can recommend on learning it? I haven't actually known it yet.

Wiki tends to have a lot of references you can peruse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_perception

 

[mfb]

I'd guess no one understands your description with layers.

Generally: If you can't visually distinguish a sphere and a square then your vision is bad. Normal human vision is better than that, because we can clearly identify these shapes correctly. Our visual impression matches the geometry of these object in space.

 

[hutchphd]

Can anybody tell me – what would we see?

Since this is the only question in the OP, I will answer it directly. Yes someone can tell you what we would see. May I suggest

https://thephilosophyforum.com/

.

 

[Rive]

is there possibility that I/we would see cube, cylinder or any other objects?

You can see many things, none of them real.

You are just too preoccupied with your eyes and has too much free time.

 

[Eagle9]

Generally, why I am asking this question
The Euclidean geometry is based on four axioms:

1. It is possible to draw a straight line from any point to any other point.
2. It is possible to extend a line segment continuously in both directions.
3. It is possible to describe a circle with any center and any radius.
4. It is true that all right angles are equal to one another.

But all these notions such as point, line, circle, plane are the results of our eyes and our visual cortex, is t correct? None of them exist as such, but they are in our mind only!
So, if our visual system was arranged in a different way we probably would not see/perceive points, lines, circles, planes and etc. Therefore, “our” geometry would be absolutely different.
If aliens exist their visual system, their geometry and generally their science would be absolutely different for us and we could not understand their book of geometry, science, philosophy and etc.
Too fantastic question, right?

DaveC426913

You shouldn't talking about shapes, which are contrived (interpreted) by the mind.

Rive

You can see many things, none of them real.

You are just too preoccupied with your eyes and has too much free time.

So, the mind/cortex arranged in a different way would see different things and shapes, is it correct?
PeterDonis

I don't see how this vague, hand-waving description allows us to make any prediction about what we would see.

It would be almost impossible to “predict” this, the only thing that can be done is to accept the fact that different visual cortex would yield different vision.

Do you have any knowledge about how the actual visual system in actual human brains works?

Very vague, frankly saying

mfb

Generally: If you can't visually distinguish a sphere and a square then your vision is bad. Normal human vision is better than that, because we can clearly identify these shapes correctly. Our visual impression matches the geometry of these object in space.

I can distinguish them, but how can I be sure that sphere (that I see in front of me) really is sphere? Other users convince me that what we see depends on our mind, on our visual cortex but it could have a different cytoarchitecture.

 

[DaveC426913]

So, the mind/cortex arranged in a different way would see different things and shapes, is it correct?

It is theoretically possible that - if our brain were wired to interpret things in a way that gave us mixed up information about the world around us - that we would see a mixed up image of the world around us.

This is trivially true. So what?

 

[Rive]

So, the mind/cortex arranged in a different way would see different things and shapes, is it correct?

You need only some mushrooms for that

 

[BillTre]

But all these notions such as point, line, circle, plane are the results of our eyes and our visual cortex, is t correct? None of them exist as such, but they are in our mind only!

Blind people, most likely, also have these concepts (I actually haven't asked any, but seems highly likely to me).

I would argue that it is an underlying spatial brain system (probably strongly influenced by visual input in "normal" people) from which these concepts arise.

I also agree with a lot of others here, that you seem to jump to a bunch of questions (for others) without much understanding of the underlying basis of phenomena.

 

[russ_watters]

Generally, why I am asking this question
The Euclidean geometry is based on four axioms:

But all these notions such as point, line, circle, plane are the results of our eyes and our visual cortex, is t correct? None of them exist as such, but they are in our mind only!

No, it's not correct. Try this: get a baseball and a ruler. Hold one in each hand. Close your eyes. Describe what you feel.

Geometry is part of the language of math. It's a human construct in that it's how we communicate certain concepts. Those concepts may or may not be real. But in this case, that geometry/math is describing real objects.

Our eyes are an important sensory organ, but they don't dictate what "exists"/is real. Heck, some things that exist and can be described with geometry can't even be seen with our eyes anyway. Such as the geometry of space. And vice versa; your eyes can see things that aren't real.

 

[Drakkith]

But all these notions such as point, line, circle, plane are the results of our eyes and our visual cortex, is t correct? None of them exist as such, but they are in our mind only!

I disagree. All are distinctly different mathematically and physically and follow certain rules that have nothing to do with how we see them. Make a shape such that all the points on the outside are the same distance from the center. You MUST create a circle or a sphere. There are no other options.

 

[DaveC426913]

Make a shape such that all the points on the outside are the same distance from the center. You MUST create a circle or a sphere.

... a shape which can be divined by (at least one) sense other than sight.

 

[jbriggs444]

I disagree. All are distinctly different mathematically and physically and follow certain rules that have nothing to do with how we see them. Make a shape such that all the points on the outside are the same distance from the center. You MUST create a circle or a sphere. There are no other options.

You could use the taxicab metric and produce a square. [Which, by definition, would also be a circle]

 

[Drakkith]

You could use the taxicab metric and produce a square. [Which, by definition, would also be a circle]

Well, hail me a cab so I can get to that universe.