So do you risk talking to her about fat?

[Astronuc]

Because the emotional and social impact of being overweight in America, especially for a female, is quite significant: she is stigmatized, made fun of, practically ignored by men, often grows to live alone and unmarried, becomes unhappy and depressed all because of her weight. Your second sentence in that quote is awkward and I don't understand what you mean.



The problem is that many, many women are overly-concerned bordering on obsession about their appearance, especially their weight because they have been brought up in a culture that is obsessed with slim women:

I wrote this thread because I caught a few minutes of Oprah Monday. It was about a woman over-doing her looks with makeup, plastic surgery, and her hair. She spent five hours in the morning getting made up and I think she's been doing that for 20 years. She said one of the things that stands out in her mind was when she was younger she overheard the boys saying they didn't want to go out with her because she was fat.

There are two aspects here. One is the fitness of a person, and the other is the behvioral or psychological aspect, particularly self-image or self-esteem.

If one is fit, then the concern about being over-weight most likely isn't an issue, unless there is some unhealthy psychological issue related to one's self-image.

The psychological aspect concerns how one learns to be self-conscious, and there a parent would need to provide guidance in the form of positive engagement with the child to which some have alluded. Providing positive role models would an appropriate step, and demonstrating desirable behavior on the part of the parents is another.

 

[DaveC426913]

Nope, I don't have an issue with fat women . . . I am their knight in shining armour.

Jack, this is even worse. You actually think you're doing them a favour by tolerating them despite their patheticness.

jackmell, friend of fat women.

 

[DanP]

jackmell, friend of fat women.

Saver !

 

[jackmell]

At least I back up my thesis with real-world examples. Gave a bunch so far.

So I see this fat girl on TV talking about how she doesn't like to go shopping. The people around her don't bring up the real reason why and just evade the issue. It's too painful and they don't want to hurt her. But we know why. It's a complete humiliation for her. She sees all the pretty slim girls in all the chic clothing shops and she's embarrassed to be fat there. Even the sales ladies . . . divert her to the what, oversize location? "But where's the pretty dress I saw in the window," she asks. "Well we don't have that one in your size," replies the clerk. Just an all-the-round unpleasant experience for her. Yeah, that's why for sure.

 

[alt]

I would say this is by far the exception rather than the rule. 99% of the time this will backfire.

You will note I spoke in this way, to a 20yo girl .. well, woman, who is stong minded, tough, and resiliant, - the way I've brought her up to be. I wasn't suggesting to the OP that he speak to his 6yo daughter like that ..

Well .. damn it - come to think of it .. Why not ? Why NOT speak to a juvenile in frank and direct terms. Here's another example. After 3 years of loving it, my 11yo boy gave up karate a few months ago, much against my wishes, just because he was bored with it. But I let him give it up, because that's what he wanted to do. Two weeks after he gave up karate, he had to go in a cross country race at school of several miles. He came home in agony, and was so for several days after.

"Why is this happenning dad ?"

"You stupid boy - you gave up karate, have refused to do any other sport, and have become weaker - your muscles have grown smaller and weaker. You've lost condition. You should take up karate or another hard sport again, as soon as you recover"

Within a week, he decided to take up Judo - for a bit of a change.

Was I harsh ? A little - but it had the desired effect. As I said, a little pain up front is sometimes neccessary, to avoid much pain and mental anguish later. Had I addressed him in confused, lovey dovey mealy mouth claptrap, he's still be thinking about it, and then probably forgotten all about it, and be on the path of childhood indolence.

1] Parents especially should never criticize a child's weight. There is no end to the lineup of adults whose issues can be traced back to parents who criticized their appearance, even lovingly.

I call the opposite. Parents should be direct, honest, and forceful with their kids if neccessary.

Kids are MUCH more resiliant than what most parents think - that is, unless they've been denured of every ounce of common sense by the pc 'doctor feelgood' claptrap that's been out there these last couple of decades.

There is no end to the line up of adults whose issues can be traced back to parents not showing them clear and firm direction.

2] If you really feel you must intervene, then lead by example, or at least directly facilitate. Sign up at a gym yourself doing something fun. Get them interested in the social or play aspect of it. Get them into a sport. If not yourself, then try to facilitate them having friends to go with. Drive them, get them equipment, pay for everything. Make it an enjoyable experience.

I agree entirely, and have said so in previous posts. Kids will more likely do as you do, rather than as you say.

 

[lisab]

At least I back up my thesis with real-world examples. Gave a bunch so far.

So I see this fat girl on TV talking about how she doesn't like to go shopping. The people around her don't bring up the real reason why and just evade the issue. It's too painful and they don't want to hurt her. But we know why. It's a complete humiliation for her. She sees all the pretty slim girls in all the chic clothing shops and she's embarrassed to be fat there. Even the sales ladies . . . divert her to the what, oversize location? "But where's the pretty dress I saw in the window," she asks. "Well we don't have that one in your size," replies the clerk. Just an all-the-round unpleasant experience for her. Yeah, that's why for sure.

Yes, I have no doubts scenes like this example are extremely painful for overweight girls (and boys too, btw). My daughter is teeny-tiny, and as an adolescent wore a size 00. She had the same frustrations finding clothes in her size, but was never humiliated by the fact that stores don't carry her size. Frustrated, yes, but never humiliated.

So I guess the overweight issue becomes the 800-pound gorilla in the room, for so many of these families. It's too sensitive and painful to confront directly, yet it ruins kids' lives. Like many have mentioned already, the parent's behavior is really the root of the problem. So why would a parent knowingly put their kid through hell like this? I mean, if society saw an alcoholic parent giving their kids alcohol so they wouldn't have to drink alone, there would be outrage. But substitute ice cream and cheeseburgers for alcohol, and no one says anything.

I'm not advocating policing parenting, btw, just thinking out loud...I mean, in pixels.

 

[DaveC426913]

At least I back up my thesis with real-world examples. Gave a bunch so far.

False dichotomy.

Your thesis presumes that fat people are best defined as such, as distinct from, well, non-fat people. You don't consider that body type is a bell curve and a continuum and everyone has a unique place on that curve. You don't account for the fact that people are individuals, every one has hopes dreams, strengths and weaknesses and these are what define them as people, not their acceptability of fatness (whether judged by you or otherwise).

You simply see fat and group them all together, defining them by that one trait. I hate to say it, but that is the definition of bigotry.

If we were talking about "cripples" (blind people and paraplegics as one), would it be more obvious how unfairly you are applying labels and boundaries?

(I don't mean to sound as harsh as this may seem. I'm being brutally honest, but I'm not trying to be mean.)

 

[DaveC426913]

And again, I see that your thoughts have nothing to do with your daughter, and everything to do with issues about "fat women".

 

[lisab]

False dichotomy.

Your thesis presumes that fat people are best defined as such, as distinct from, well, non-fat people. You don't consider that body type is a bell curve and a continuum and everyone has a unique place on that curve. You don't account for the fact that people are individuals, every one has hopes dreams, strengths and weaknesses and these are what define them, not their acceptability of fatness as judged by you.

You simply see fat and group them all together, defining them by that one trait. I hate to say it, but that is the definition of bigotry.

If we were talking about "cripples" (blind people and paraplegics as one), would it be more obvious how unfairly you are applying labels and boundaries?

(I don't mean to sound as harsh as this may seem. I'm being brutally honest, but I'm not trying to be mean.)

How do you mean, grouping them together? Yes I do think that society "groups together" those with BMI = 34 and BMI = 38, for example. You can raill against it, but it's a fact: society isn't accepting of fat people, especially those with morbid obesity. It isn't jack making this judgement - in fact, I don't see evidence of him being bigoted. I do see it in society though. Recently http://boo.kmark.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/20100214fatguyonairplane.jpg" was widely circulated. The guy didn't get much sympathy.

 

[DanP]

Yes, I have no doubts scenes like this example are extremely painful for overweight girls (and boys too, btw). My daughter is teeny-tiny, and as an adolescent wore a size 00. She had the same frustrations finding clothes in her size, but was never humiliated by the fact that stores don't carry her size. Frustrated, yes, but never humiliated.

.

A size 0 can be still considered hot. At least she could stand on the catwalk :P So the parallel is not so good.

The same can't be said about an elephant women. I agree with the OP many of those who are obese (from both sexes ) suffer from serious issues, and self perceived humiliation may be one of them. I say self perceived because the rest of us won't really care about how she looks. You just can't give too much attention to every fat thing on streets. Unfortunately, they do percieve themselves all the time in the "spotlight" and this bothers them.

 

[DaveC426913]

How do you mean, grouping them together? I don't see evidence of him being bigoted.

jack thinks he can know what's going on on the inside, based solely on what he sees on the outside. As if all fat women have the same thoguiht and feelings, and are obsessed with their weight.

He is defining the person (what they think) by the [strike]colour[/strike] quantity of their skin.

Bigotry doesn't mean you hate 'someone', bigotry means you define them and group them (put them 'in a box') based on an arbitrary quality.

What you do with them, once you've corralled them into that group is a different matter. Some people hate the people in the group, some people pretend they are doing them a favour by liking them.


(I was watching a CSI:NY episode the other night. A very attractive jock said to his blind girlfriend: "You're dumping me? But you're blind!")

 

[DanP]

How do you mean, grouping them together? Yes I do think that society "groups together" those with BMI = 34 and BMI = 38, for example. You can raill against it, but it's a fact: society isn't accepting of fat people, especially those with morbid obesity. It isn't jack making this judgement - in fact, I don't see evidence of him being bigoted. I do see it in society though. Recently http://boo.kmark.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/20100214fatguyonairplane.jpg" was widely circulated. The guy didn't get much sympathy.

Lisa, we do accept them, but this is not the issue. The issue is that I would never hire such a person in any public relation position for example. This is not discrimination, this is crude reality. The physical appearance of a person is important in many jobs. That aside, the physical fitness of a person is important in many jobs.

To be honest, I really don't care X or Y are fat. Their problem, not mine. But they shouldn't be surprised when certain jobs are closed to them, or when air transport companies makes them pay for 2 sits. You know what ? I pay for mine, and I want all that space, not overflowing lard from the sit next to me.

 

[DanP]

He is defining the person (what they think) by the [strike]colour[/strike] quantity of their skin.

He does commit indeed an attribution error , but many of the things he mentions are serious issues in many cases with overweight ppl, especially at a young age, in a collective with attractive healthy peers.

 

[Astronuc]

So I see this --- person on TV . . .

How often does one see well-adjusted, content people on TV? On Oprah - Dr. Phil - or worse, Jerry Springer ? It seems that the audience find dysfunctional people entertaining .

One could get rid of one's TV, and instead read books and play outside. My family used to go to the beach or parks on the weekends, otherwise, we (children) spent most of our time outside playing.

Inside, after dark, or on rainy days, I'd build models, particularly freight cars or structures for a model railroad, or mechanical things with an Erector set, or electronics from a Radio Shack 100-in-1 electronics kit. Or I'd read.

 

[DaveC426913]

You just can't give too much attention to every fat thing on streets. Unfortunately, they do percieve themselves all the time in the "spotlight" and this bothers them.

Again with the generalizations.

"They" perceive?? Reliably, they can be grouped this way?

Apparently, jackmell and DanP think that peoples' self-identity lies - not in their hearts and minds - but in the flesh on their thighs. Simply put, fat people feel X about themselves and about the world's perception of them.

 

[DanP]

Apparently, jackmell and DanP think that peoples' self-identity lies - not in their hearts and minds - but in the flesh on their thighs. Simply put, fat people feel X about themselves and about the world's perception of them.

Spotlight effect is a bias so common in humans that I can safely say what I said. It is of course a stereotype, and does not apply to every individual, but yeah, it is many times accurate.

 

[DaveC426913]

...but yeah, it is many times accurate.

How would you know?

You do realize that, to weed out false positives (i.e. your assumptions based on stereotyping, which I am betting accounts for 100% of your samples), you would have to actually stop and interview these random people on the street?

 

[DanP]

How would you know?

You do realize that, to weed out false positives (i.e. your assumptions based on stereotyping, which I am betting accounts for 100% of your samples), you would have to actually stop and interview these random people on the street?

Navigating the social world on stereotypes is much more practical then getting caught in hairsplitting like you do. You can spend an eternity trying to sample whatever populations you want, I prefer the practical route in the social world. It gets me there.

Stereotypes, prejudices and other schemata on other ppl are essential and required in a practical, day to day negotiation of the social world.

 

[jackmell]

Ok, I really don't know what the women I see are thinking. It's just my suspicion that's all.

If I can go back to the original idea I had in this thread: I personally would engage my young daughter at an early age, first grade or so, to talk to her about the (social) difficulties fat people face in our society. I'm aware that could back-fire and I stated that in my original post but I would still risk it because of what I perceive to be extreme suffering overweight women go through dealing with societal pressures to be thin, and I would not want to see my daughter go through that.

Maybe I should have just set up a poll:

Would you directly engage your young pre-pubescent daughter in a frank discussion (of your own design) about the social, personal, and emotional problems of becoming overweight (in America)?

I'm the first to say yes.

 

[turbo]

Would you directly engage your young pre-pubescent daughter in a frank discussion (of your own design) about the social, personal, and emotional problems of becoming overweight?

I'm the first to say yes.

No. Young kids need to be given positive outlets and examples. Laying on negative feelings makes them self-conscious and fearful, leading to destructive behavior. My neighbors' grand-daughters have a half-sister that visits. She is 11 years old, and her mother tells her she's getting a "fat butt" though the little thing is skinny as a rail. I'd like to slap that woman. Doing that to a child is hurtful.

 

[Monique]

No. Young kids need to be given positive outlets and examples.

Absolutely! Focus on the positive, teach her how important a good diet and exercise is. Engage her in positive activities, that's how she learns what's good for her.

 

[Math Is Hard]

jackmell, do you have any kids yet, or are you just speaking hypothetically?

 

[Jack21222]

I'm a fat guy (just over 5'11" and right around 260 pounds), and I've been hearing from my grandmother and a few other family members how I need to lose weight, how I'm too fat, etc. You know what? Not only did it not help, but it made me LESS likely to lose weight, just because I don't like to be ordered around.

 

[DaveC426913]

Ok, I really don't know what the women I see are thinking. It's just my suspicion that's all.

Yyyyep.

And you are about to infect your daughter with it.

Setting aside the issue of how true or false it might be, the technique you're using is a very negative approach, almost sure to impart damage on her psyche.

...talk to her about the (social) difficulties fat people face in our society...

For the sake of your daughter's lifelong mental health, heed monique's and turbo's advice on this.

And for GOD's SAKE, stop talking about FAT PEOPLE. You use it like a cuss word. People have a range of body types; many are unhealthily overweight. The issue here is health, not fatness.

 

[DanP]

And for GOD's SAKE, stop talking about FAT PEOPLE. You use it like a cuss word. People have a range of body types; many are unhealthily overweight. The issue here is health, not fatness.

The issue is with both actually. Health is more salient than other considerations, but yeah, being fat is uncool. You do look like ugly, old and spent if you are fat, truth be told.

 

[turbo]

The issue is with both actually. Health is more salient than other considerations, but yeah, being fat is uncool. You do look like ugly, old and spent if you are fat, truth be told.

The critical point here is "what is the best approach?" If you focus on the negatives, you will give the young girl self-image problems and accentuate the social insecurity that she will inevitably experience as she enters puberty. That's not healthy, and it could result in anorexia, bulemia, and other self-destructive behavior.

What you perceive as "honesty" in such a situation is a form of abuse, IMO.

 

[jackmell]

jackmell, do you have any kids yet, or are you just speaking hypothetically?

I have a grown daughter and son and I am speaking hypothetically as to what a parent could do to raise a healthy daughter.

But it looks like I'm startin' to get my butt kicked with this so well, I know some of you might think this is a cop-out but as I see it, I was successful in engaging a discussion about something that is important to me and other parents: daughters, so wish to claim a lil' bit of win. She needs you to be a healthy part of her life dad. Be there for her as best as you can. :)

 

[DanP]

The critical point here is "what is the best approach?" If you focus on the negatives, you will give the young girl self-image problems and accentuate the social insecurity that she will inevitably experience as she enters puberty. That's not healthy, and it could result in anorexia, bulemia, and other self-destructive behavior.




What you perceive as "honesty" in such a situation is a form of abuse, IMO.

Im not proposing to tell the kid that, but ppl on the forum should be able to get a simple truth. Obesity is a curse. It is not only health issues, there is a plethora of other issues steaming from it, psychological, social, etc.

Claiming is health only issue is burying your head in the sand IMO.

 

[DaveC426913]

Im not proposing to tell the kid that, but ppl on the forum should be able to get a simple truth. Obesity is a curse. It is not only health issues, there is a plethora of other issues steaming from it, psychological, social, etc.

Claiming is health only issue is burying your head in the sand IMO.

No one claimed it is only a health issue.

What we are claiming is that it is first and most importantly a health issue. And certainly when it comes to weighing the risks of a parent's criticism.

Negative criticism from a parent can do far far more damage in the long-term of a person's life than merely being overweight.

 

[DanP]

Negative criticism from a parent can do far far more damage in the long-term of a person's life than merely being overweight.

It can indeed.

 

[FrancisZ]

I would say, that if you want someone else to lose weight, you have to lose weight yourself first (even a minor amount).

I had a friend that used to run every day. She lived next door to our mutual job--a school--so she used to run every day, after work, on her free time in the school yard. It's funny how a thing like that could become contagious.

I really don't like running much; I don't like the impact, or bodily jiggling we are all subject to. But because my friend was doing it, somehow it wasn't so bad to join in. I had somebody to talk to, so I didn't even notice after a while, the unpleasantries of running.

 

[Klockan3]

Negative criticism from a parent can do far far more damage in the long-term of a person's life than merely being overweight.

But it can also do a whole lot of good as well, it depends so much on the context, if your kid is currently going through a tough time then don't, else they can take it just fine and it is good for them to learn that even people who loves them can be brash. Being overweight never helped anyone though.

If you focus on the negatives, you will give the young girl self-image problems and accentuate the social insecurity that she will inevitably experience as she enters puberty.

I think that most of this thread comes from the stigma about females appearances. Somehow you aren't allowed to tell them that they are fat... Why not? What is the difference between telling her that she is fat and telling her that her grades won't get her where she wants? And if you won't tell her then someone else inevitably will and I am sure that the parents are better at handling it well than her classmates.

I'd say that the best way would be to be honest with her when she is just starting to get overweight, not after.

 

[DanP]

I would say, that if you want someone else to lose weight, you have to lose weight yourself first (even a minor amount).

Why in the name of god should I do that ?

 

[airborne18]

The best way to deal with this is with prevention. Address wieght issues before they become a teenager.

My daughter used to eat endlessly, and never gained weight. One day I warned that she will some day have to watch her diet. ( she was probably 9 or 10 ). And I kept it light hearted and she would just laugh and say.. well until then...

Finally she got to the age where she realized that I was right. And I told her, if you work out 45 mins a day, really work out, then you can eat whatever you want.

Well she still has some so-so eating habits, but she is also a fitness freak.

So my advice is plan this in advance and make it a lifestyle. Also don't let kids sit idle. They have so much energy when they are young, and make sure they use it.

 

[Jack21222]

Being overweight never helped anyone though.

Chris Farley's career.