Stored Lithium-ion batteries self exterminate after 2-3 years?

[Drakkith]

Perhaps I didn't take "do not avoid using" literal enough. They probably referred to storage vs usage only. Not different levels of usage.

For starters, I don't even know which citation you're referring to. You need to clearly state which citation you're talking about. I thought you were talking about the link in post #28. The link in your original post is saying don't leave your batteries in storage for years expecting them to perform as if they were brand new.

Btw, speaking of capacity, I noticed that worn-out Lion Batteries are slower to charge up, regardless of it's a quick charge or not. Are you guys aware of this phenomenon?

I haven't noticed this with any of my old devices, but I suppose its possible.

 

[Pleonasm]

For starters, I don't even know which citation you're referring to. You need to clearly state which citation you're talking about. I thought you were talking about the link in post #28. The link in your original post is saying don't leave your batteries in storage for years expecting them to perform as if they were brand new.

I'm referring to the original citation. Now the data on how to optimize lion battery capacity in usage suggests that they should be kept between 75 and 65% if I am reading this correctly.

"The smallest capacity loss is attained by charging Li-ion to 75 percent and discharging to 65 percent"

Aren't 75-65% charge levels quite hot batteries relatively speaking? Why not between 40 and 50 %or 50 and 60%?

 

[Drakkith]

Isn't 65-75% charge levels quite hot batteries relatively speaking? Why not between 40 and 50%?

Couldn't tell you.

 

[Pleonasm]

Couldn't tell you.

But did I read that properly? A user is adviced to keep the batteries between 75 and 65% permanently?

 

[Pleonasm]

The 75-65% optimization result is from here https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

 

[Drakkith]

But did I read that properly? A user is adviced to keep the batteries between 75 and 65% permanently?

For storage. You obviously can't keep it in that range if you're using it. For example, the batteries for my lawn mower and string trimmer only get used one every week or two, so I should store them within that range if I want to get the best lifetime out of them. Of course, that's practically impossible since I have no way of easily charging it to 75%.

If you're using a phone, tablet, laptop, or other similar device it's really not possible to keep them between 75% and 65%, so you're just going to have to accept that your batteries are going to deteriorate slightly faster than they might otherwise.

 

[Pleonasm]

If you're using a phone, tablet, laptop, or other similar device it's really not possible to keep them between 75% and 65%, so you're just going to have to accept that your batteries are going to deteriorate slightly faster than they might otherwise.

Fairly easy with a quick charger with you to keep it around those figures. Sony claims the quick charger will not hurt their battery.

 

[Drakkith]

Fairly easy with a quick charger with you to keep it around those figures.

If you want to constantly be watching you battery status. But I don't consider that to be easy or convenient.

 

[Rive]

Is this claim substantied by facts?

Well, way back I made some cash by buying up a bunch of cheap 'new, defunct' stuff from the local auctioneer with dead batteries and selling them after replacing the battery, so kind of 'yes'.

However, that 2-3 year is a bit short. It might have been be correct when the Li-ion was new, but by my experience these days any decent (not the cheapest ones from the Chinese online stores - for those maybe one year, and even that starts at 50% capacity) battery will last (I mean: still usable) for at least 4-5 years if handled/stored with care.

 

[Pleonasm]

Well, way back I made some cash by buying up a bunch of cheap 'new, defunct' stuff from the local auctioneer with dead batteries and selling them after replacing the battery, so kind of 'yes'.

However, that 2-3 year is a bit short. It might have been be correct when the Li-ion was new, but by my experience these days any decent (not the cheapest ones from the Chinese online stores - for those maybe one year, and even that starts at 50% capacity) battery will last (I mean: still usable) for at least 4-5 years if handled/stored with care.

That has been my experience too. Do you have any insight on using non original lion batteries in electronic equipment? I can't find any info on whether it's feasible or not.

 

[Rive]

Do you have any insight on using non original lion batteries in electronic equipment? I can't find any info on whether it's feasible or not.

Always depends on the actual case. The only thing common is that you have to be very careful.
Also, recently it is getting more and more troublesome so it's often better to find parts from other damaged equipment instead of buying from sources with unknown reliability.

For my old tablet (which I'm really reluctant to let go) I got two sets of replacement from China (the only place I could find components): one was ~ 60% of the nominal capacity (I mean, 60% of the the original 5Ah: on the sticker it was 10Ah - guess somebody believed it as an additive parameter for two cells...), and without any decent balancer on the two prismatic cells, so the replacement lasted only three months. The second was also ~60%, but I've moved the balancer from the original battery right after unwrapping the package so it lasted three months longer. Finally, I've bought an identical tablet with broken screen. The capacity of the battery was still around 90% and this was already a year ago.

 

[Pleonasm]

Always depends on the actual case. The only thing common is that you have to be very careful.
Also, recently it is getting more and more troublesome so it's often better to find parts from other damaged equipment instead of buying from sources with unknown reliability.

For my old tablet (which I'm really reluctant to let go) I got two sets of replacement from China (the only place I could find components): one was ~ 60% of the nominal capacity (I mean, 60% of the the original 5Ah: on the sticker it was 10Ah - guess somebody believed it as an additive parameter for two cells...), and without any decent balancer on the two prismatic cells, so the replacement lasted only three months. The second was also ~60%, but I've moved the balancer from the original battery right after unwrapping the package so it lasted three months longer. Finally, I've bought an identical tablet with broken screen. The capacity of the battery was still around 90% and this was already a year ago.

Don't you think a mechanic in a work-shop could determine whether the foreign battery with more or less mAh, and what not, would pose a problem?

 

[Rive]

Don't you think a mechanic in a work-shop could determine whether the foreign battery with more or less mAh, and what not, would pose a problem?

To properly check a battery is not witchcraft, but you have to buy it first and then if it's not OK it's already late...

In any case I would go for an identical one first, and I would stick to that for months before giving up and resort to more-or-less kind of solutions.

 

[Pleonasm]

If you want to constantly be watching you battery status. But I don't consider that to be easy or convenient.

But to another point I don't get, the number of full cycles would occur faster if I were to charge it every 10%... and reach the maximum charge cycle treshold faster than If I charged it more conservatively

 

[Drakkith]

But to another point I don't get, the number of full cycles would occur faster if I were to charge it every 10%... and reach the maximum charge cycle treshold faster than If I charged it more conservatively

That's not a full cycle.

 

[Pleonasm]

That's not a full cycle.

I would reach full cycles (100% charging) faster If I charge it every 10% drop with 10% (from 65 to 75%). There's an 80% drop in performance once a certain number of full cycles have been reached.

 

[Drakkith]

I would reach full cycles (100% charging) faster If I charge it every 10% drop with 10% (from 65 to 75%).

A 10% charge is not a full cycle, no matter how many times you do it. I honestly can't tell you how the battery would behave.

 

[anorlunda]

This may not be relevant to the OP's problem, but I discovered the hard way that I was mistreating batteries.

At the time, I was living on a sailboat which is subject to vigorous wave action. I had devilish problems with rechargeable NiMh and Li batteries. They would last only a month or two. After several years, I figured it out.

The smart battery chargers would automatically cut off when full charge is reached. But vibrations, or shaking the charger caused the logic to reset. Then it would apply full charge current for a few minutes when it figured out again that it had full charge. But if the shaking reset the logic every 20-30 seconds, then the overcharge never ceases. I finally figured it out because the batteries in the charger became too hot to touch. Putting the charger horizontal on a cushion instead of mounting it vertically on the wall solved the problems.

 

[Pleonasm]

A 10% charge is not a full cycle, no matter how many times you do it. I honestly can't tell you how the battery would behave.

I don't get it. If that's the case, there would be no way of achieving a full cycle without a full discharge and then recharge to 100.

 

[Drakkith]

I don't get it. If that's the case, there would be no way of achieving a full cycle without a full discharge and then recharge to 100.

What don't you get?

 

[Pleonasm]

What don't you get?

If I can't get a full cycle out of constant 10% charge and discharge , and lion batteries functionality is defined by a certain number of full cycles (they deteriorate 80% after a certain number of full cyles), then a Lion battery couldn't possibly deteriorate, ever, in the event of me by me doing 10% charge and discharges ad infinitum?

 

[Drakkith]

I I can't get a full cycle out of constant 10% charge and discharge , and lion batteries functionality is defined by a certain number of full cycles (they deteriorate 80% after a certain number of full cyles), then a Lion battery couldn't possibly deteriorate, ever, in the event of me by me doing 10% charge and discharges ad infinitum?

...do you really believe that?

 

[Pleonasm]

...do you really believe that?

What other conclusion can I draw from your statement if Lion batteries functionalites are defined by their number of full cycles (assuming proper storage).

 

[Drakkith]

What other conclusion can I draw from your statement if Lion batteries functionalites are defined by their number of full cycles (assuming proper storage).

What you should take from my statement is that a 10% charge is not a full charge and that I don't exactly how the battery will behave. I don't know how you got the idea that only a full charge results in degradation. If that were the case, wouldn't the standard procedure be to just charge your battery to 90% or so instead of a full charge?

 

[Pleonasm]

What you should take from my statement is that a 10% charge is not a full charge and that I don't exactly how the battery will behave. I don't know how you got the idea that only a full charge results in degradation. If that were the case, wouldn't the standard procedure be to just charge your battery to 90% or so instead of a full charge?

The batteries are too warm at 90% (heat kills battery). If you keep them around 75-65%, they will be neither hot nor cold. Depending on your phone model and usage, it would not neccesarily get warm from everyday usage.

 

[Drakkith]

The batteries are too warm at 90% (heat kills battery). If you keep them around 75-65%, they will be neither hot nor cold. Depending on your phone model and usage, it would not neccesarily get warm from everyday usage.

What is the relationship between battery charge level and temperature?

As far as I now, the issue with the charge-discharge cycle is that it the chemical reactions inside the battery gradually break down the battery. This happens to some extent for any charge-discharge cycle, regardless of whether it is a 10% cycle or a 100% cycle.

 

[symbolipoint]

https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/lithium-ion-battery2.htm

"Lithium-ion batteries age. They only last two to three years, even if they are sitting on a shelf unused. So do not "avoid using" the battery with the thought that the battery pack will last five years."

Is this claim substantied by facts? My mother has a lion-battery smartphone from 2013 still in use. Can someone explain how it's still working if the battery will self exterminate within 2-3 years regardless of use?

Without technical knowledge about them specifically, the claim is YES. Just by personal experience.
I had a device with a rechargeable battery packed in. I tried using it 6 years after purchase.. No keep of charge; useless. On the other hand, similar device having been in daily use for more than 7 years still useful. The older device will not keep its charge too long upon recharge, but it still does take a charge and can be used while the one which was stored without use for 6 years became useless. Charging it has no effect - dead!(small edit on oct 9 2018)

 

[Rive]

The batteries are too warm at 90%

90% has nothing to do with temperature this way (if the charger is any good).

I'm suspecting that 90% in a different way. 'Warm' batteries gives out higher voltage, so if something is fully charged then later on it can become overcharged if warmed up. At summer it was common sight to see my phone at 100% in the morning, and it was still at 100% after some hours since the temperature kept climbing. At the end of the summer I had to replace the battery. With the new battery I kept the charge at 80-90%, and even so it climbed up to 95% by the time I arrived to the office. Then the AC brought it back to 80%.

 

[Pleonasm]

90% has nothing to do with temperature this way (if the charger is any good).
.

A lion battery running at a 90- 100% level in your smartphone is not warmer (all else equal) than one at 60-70%?

 

[Rive]

I did not notice so far that temperature would depend on charge level, either for charge or usage.

 

[Pleonasm]

I did not notice so far that temperature would depend on charge level, either for charge or usage.

Then how come the recommended levels are to be in the ranges 40-80% for daily use and not 50-90 or 60-100?

 

[Pleonasm]

90% has nothing to do with temperature this way (if the charger is any good).
.

"Li-ion does not need to be fully charged as is the case with lead acid, nor is it desirable to do so. In fact, it is better not to fully charge because a high voltage stresses the battery. Choosing a lower voltage threshold or eliminating the saturation charge altogether, prolongs battery life but this reduces the runtime. Chargers for consumer products go for maximum capacity and cannot be adjusted; extended service life is perceived less important."

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

 

[Drakkith]

A lion battery running at a 90- 100% level in your smartphone is not warmer (all else equal) than one at 60-70%?

No. Why do you think that they might be? Are you thinking that the degradation of the battery is solely because of heat? If so, then that is incorrect. The battery is degraded just from regular use (charging and discharging).

Then how come the recommended levels are to be in the ranges 40-80% for daily use and not 50-90 or 60-100?

For exactly the reason you mentioned in post #67. Too high of a voltage, or too low of a voltage, degrades the battery. Below are a few quotes from articles that go into more depth about what causes lithium-ion batteries to degrade.

As Lithium-ion batteries discharge, the lithium ions (Li+) carry an electrical charge from the anode to the cathode across a non-aqueous electrolyte. This is what powers your phone. It is not a perfectly repeatable system though, and each time the lithium ions move through the battery, they cause minute changes to the electrodes' physical structures. This is what eventually kills your battery's capacity.

"As the lithium ions race through the reaction layers, they cause clumping crystallization—a kind of rock-salt matrix builds up over time and begins limiting performance," Xin said. "We found that these structures tended to form along the lithium-ion reaction channels, which we directly visualized under the TEM [transmission electron microscope - ed]. The effect was even more pronounced at higher voltages, explaining the more rapid deterioration."

https://gizmodo.com/scientists-solved-the-mystery-of-why-rechargeable-batte-1583247838

During charge, lithium gravitates to the graphite anode (negative electrode) and the voltage potential changes. Removing the lithium again during discharge does not reset the battery fully. A film called solid electrolyte interface (SEI) consisting of lithium atoms forms on the surface of the anode. Composed of lithium oxide and lithium carbonate, the SEI layer grows as the battery cycles. The film gets thicker and eventually forms a barrier that obstructs interaction with graphite. (See BU-701 How to Prime Batteries)

The cathode (positive electrode) develops a similar restrictive layer known as electrolyte oxidation. Dr. Dahn stresses that a voltage above 4.10V/cell at elevated temperature causes this, a demise that can be more harmful than cycling a battery. The longer the battery stays in a high voltage, the faster the degradation occurs.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die

The higher-capacity degradation is related to the parasitic reactions that occur at higher temperatures, whereby loss of active material and lithium-ion become determining factors. This observation has been confirmed by the increase of the internal resistance, whereby the main contributor is the growth of the solid electrolyte interface. Furthermore, the experimental results show that higher SoC levels have a negative impact on the battery capacity degradation compared to lower SoC levels (e.g., 25%). From the performed analysis, one can conclude that a lithium-ion battery should be kept in a temperature range lower than 40 °C and 75% SoC during its calendar life for guaranteeing long lifetime of the battery.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9781782420903000092

"Li-ion does not need to be fully charged as is the case with lead acid, nor is it desirable to do so. In fact, it is better not to fully charge because a high voltage stresses the battery. Choosing a lower voltage threshold or eliminating the saturation charge altogether, prolongs battery life but this reduces the runtime. Chargers for consumer products go for maximum capacity and cannot be adjusted; extended service life is perceived less important."

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

That has nothing to do with temperature, so I don't know why you quoted Rive's post and answered him with this.

 

[Pleonasm]

That has nothing to do with temperature, so I don't know why you quoted Rive's post and answered him with this.

It's at any rate answer to your question why it's not desirable to have it charged at 90% levels.

 

[Pleonasm]

" Choosing a lower voltage threshold or eliminating the saturation charge altogether, prolongs battery life but this reduces the runtime"

What does elminating saturation charge mean? Is it the same as avoiding large difference between various levels of charge?