Synesthesia, some people perceive individual symbols, characters, numbers

[rhody]

Wow, I really have to re-read that book. I've forgotten masses of what was in it.

Rhody, did you mis-speak when you said the most commonly reported sense pairings were sight and touch? I remember it being sound and sight.

The low bloodflow data seems to say the cause of synesthesia is neither hyperactivation nor crossover ("crosswiring"), but the result of some normal elements of brain function being inactivated.

zoobyshoe,

You may be correct, I put that down without pinning it down in the book (one of the few places I didn't mark for facts), I will try again today, in any event we know that it is a mingling of two or more of the five senses.

To comment to your last statement, to be fair I haven't finished it yet, and there may be other extenuating circumstances. For now according to Dr Stump's and Dr Cytowic's findings the blood flow in the cereberal cortex is vastly reduced (abnormally so) at rest and even more so during stimulation which gives rise to more active response in the limbic area, that I said could not be measured with the CBF test at the time. I have to believe that up to date technology could do a better job on all fronts. I will do some research to see if more modern tests have been performed.

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

To comment to your last statement, to be fair I haven't finished it yet, and there may be other extenuating circumstances. For now according to Dr Stump's and Dr Cytowic's findings the blood flow in the cereberal cortex is vastly reduced (abnormally so) at rest and even more so during stimulation which gives rise to more active response in the limbic area, that I said could not be measured with the CBF test at the time. I have to believe that up to date technology could do a better job on all fronts. I will do some research to see if more modern tests have been performed.

I'll let you finish your research. So far the list of pertinent information you culled from the book looks excellent.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Rhody, that was actually quite cheering to read, and Zooby already hit the high notes there. You've taken a very complex subject and dissected it nicely given that you're mid-stream! I would add one element, but not a correction: All of this illustrates the plasticity of the human brain (especially in the very young), and the relativity of perception, but also that imaging has limits not just based on the technology, but what it is a researcher is looking for.

 

[StarkRG]

rhody, zoobyshoe: I seem to recall that it was taste and sight. In other words letters, numbers, shapes, and other symbols can not only have color but a flavor too.

Then again, maybe I was thinking of quarks...

 

[Frame Dragger]

rhody, zoobyshoe: I seem to recall that it was taste and sight. In other words letters, numbers, shapes, and other symbols can not only have color but a flavor too.

Then again, maybe I was thinking of quarks...

I can settle this: it's Grapheme -> Colour which is most common, or believed to be.

http://www.bu.edu/synesthesia/faq/index.html

HOWEVER... that is most commonly reported, discovered, etc. That may be due to the primary role of vision in humans. In other words, there may be a major sampling (and other) biases.

 

[StarkRG]

Ooh, I don't know if I'd say vision is primary unless you're talking about what we notice consciously. Smell has a much more direct connection with memories (sound too, but less so). The difference is that it smell is a little more subconscious than sight.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Ooh, I don't know if I'd say vision is primary unless you're talking about what we notice consciously. Smell has a much more direct connection with memories (sound too, but less so). The difference is that it smell is a little more subconscious than sight.

This isn't one of those "maybes". Human beings are sight-primary, compared to saaaay, dogs, which primarily rely on scentt. This isn't to say we can't smell, but we do not navigate our world by it. As for the memories, scent-memory is there, but limited, and visual cues are FAR more effective than auditory cues in humans.

Compared to most other mammals we have VERY acute vision, and very poor hearing and sense of smell. The connection to memory is not relelvant to sight's primacy.

 

[waht]

An interesting short clip on synesthesia. The subject's favorite dish is chicken with ice-cream because it looks good literally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvwTSEwVBfc

 

[Frame Dragger]

*throws up a little* Yes, that is truly intersting, but um... BLEGH!

 

[waht]

*throws up a little* Yes, that is truly intersting, but um... BLEGH!

Gives a whole new meaning of synesthesia as a "gift."

 

[Frame Dragger]

Gives a whole new meaning of synesthesia as a "gift."

Oh yeah, the one that keeps on giving and leaves a funny taste in your mouth. That said, objectively, he enjoys the chicken and ice-cream so... who am I to judge? That said... I am going to have a very LIGHT dinner with this in mind.

 

[rhody]

An interesting short clip on synesthesia. The subject's favorite dish is chicken with ice-cream because it looks good literally.

waht,

I know the video was a short one, I wonder if Dr Eagleman is aware of those who blazed the trail before him, in this case Dr Cytowic, who not only tested the patients in his book, but ran the CBF tests (and others I haven't reported on yet) to determine where it occurs in the brain.

Second, if you look at item 15 in my list, and you are of drinking age and do drink and wouldn't mind answering the question, does alcohol enhance the effects of the condition, do the sensations become more vivid, intense, etc... Only answer if you are comfortable with the question, I don't want to pressure you in any way.

Third, reading more of the book today, the test subject whose blood flow was vastly reduced did not have any underlying condition that could have caused it, no lesions, cancer etc... I hope this puts your mind at ease at bit.

Thanks...

Rhody...

 

[waht]

I know the video was a short one, I wonder if Dr Eagleman is aware of those who blazed the trail before him, in this case Dr Cytowic, who not only tested the patients in his book, but ran the CBF tests (and others I haven't reported on yet) to determine where it occurs in the brain.

He's a researcher so I suppose he must have studied everything on the subject.

Second, if you look at item 15 in my list, and you are of drinking age and do drink and wouldn't mind answering the question, does alcohol enhance the effects of the condition, do the sensations become more vivid, intense, etc... Only answer if you are comfortable with the question, I don't want to pressure you in any way.

No pressure taken. But to answer your question, I really don't know what the effects of alcohol had been because I never thought about observing this behavior under the influence, and also most of it is hard to recall

Third, reading more of the book today, the test subject whose blood flow was vastly reduced did not have any underlying condition that could have caused it, no lesions, cancer etc... I hope this puts your mind at ease at bit.

It's pretty fascinating. Needless to say, I'll pick up this book sometime this week.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Cytowic and Eagleman co-authored "Wednesday Is Indigo Blue: Discovering the Brain of Synesthesia".

 

[rhody]

A good collection of synesthasia links http://www.doctorhugo.org/synaesthesia/" including Cytowic's personal website: scroll down, under: Synaesthesia researchers heading.

Don't have a chance to browse any of them (in detail) now. For review and comment if you wish. Info supplied here pretty much indicates, at least to me, that this thread has plenty of life in it, even after review of Cytowic's book.

Rhody...

 

[khz]

Sorry for deviating from wherever the discussion has led to, but I have voluntary synesthesia resulting from one time marijuana use. That is, I can turn off the lights whilst listening to music, and I can have mild visual pattern/colour correlative hallucinations that conform to any changes to the music. It's AWESOME! I'm not scared of psychosis or anything because I just see it as my visual cortex getting too much electricity or blood or whatever resulting from my expectation of mild hallucinations to start (remember, it's totally voluntary). I'm curious as to how this was 'unlocked' in me though.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Sorry for deviating from wherever the discussion has led to, but I have voluntary synesthesia resulting from one time marijuana use. That is, I can turn off the lights whilst listening to music, and I can have mild visual pattern/colour correlative hallucinations that conform to any changes to the music. It's AWESOME! I'm not scared of psychosis or anything because I just see it as my visual cortex getting too much electricity or blood or whatever resulting from my expectation of mild hallucinations to start (remember, it's totally voluntary). I'm curious as to how this was 'unlocked' in me though.

Marijuana has been shown to trigger mental illness that might otherwise have remained dormant... and while Synesthesia isn't a mental illness, I wonder if a similar mechanism could be at play. More likely this is a very unusual effect that frankly, I can't even begin to explain. Synesthesia DURING drug use is not unheard of, but to become Synesthetic... I think that is. Beyond that... *baffled*

 

[rhody]

I'm curious as to how this weas 'unlocked' though.

khz,

Me too, I would say to start that you may have been on the threshold for it to happen to begin with, and the one time use of whacky weed that triggered it. They say it can run in families so check and see if other relatives have experienced it too. I am sure if you "google" on it you will find others like yourself and what effects they now experience because of it. I am no Dr, but it may be something else that sounds like synesthesia and you are putting the "synesthesia" label on it. Are the symptoms always the same, consistent or do they change in intensity and in the sensations you are experiencing ?

Do some more probing on your own and let us know what you discover.

Rhody...

 

[khz]

khz,

Me too, I would say to start that you may have been on the threshold for it to happen to begin with, and the one time use of whacky weed that triggered it. They say it can run in families so check and see if other relatives have experienced it too. I am sure if you "google" on it you will find others like yourself and what effects they now experience because of it. I am no Dr, but it may be something else that sounds like synesthesia and you are putting the "synesthesia" label on it. Are the symptoms always the same, consistent or do they change in intensity and in the sensations you are experiencing ?

Do some more probing on your own and let us know what you discover.

Rhody...

No filial history of mental illness, otherwise I wouldn't have tried it. Looking back, I regret trying marijuana as LSD seems much healthier for the brain. (note: onlyh done weed, and only once) It is foremost voluntary visuals whilst in a dark room, brought on by consciously remembering the hallucinatory experience. The introduction of music produces the seeing of the music, that materialises as changing visuals when the music changes. The whole thing started about 1 month after the weed experience. I was sitting in a train and for 30 minutes was remembering my experience. Suddenly something got unlocked, and I was having visuals of a twisting double helix, and I felt that I could morph this into whatever visual I wanted at will. I wonder whether remembering the experience tricked my brain into doing something that it did in the experience.

Now, I can only ever get visuals when I'm in the dark. I bring it on consciously and it goes away consciously. I do it for fun quite a lot. The visuals are always centred in the middle of wherever I'm looking at (I can't look away from the visuals). This is obviously because it's in my brain and not reliant on photons coming into my eyes. I can induce all sorts of visuals, which I will describe to everyone if there is demand for the information.

EDIT: Actually, to say I've done weed once is an error on my part. I did it one more time when I was on holiday with friends. Except, this yielded no hallucinations (This was post-involuntary hallucinations period).

 

[rhody]

Videos: including four by Cytowic himself, very good. He goes into detail I am reading and taking notes on in the second half of the book. He does a much better job of explaining than I possibly could, and makes it entertaining to watch and to listen to. Funny though, the number of hits on these video's is fairly low, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Cytowic mentions a memory expert who has limitless memory because of 5 fold synesthesia in all of his senses. One suggestion he makes in the question and answer session in part 4 is that people who meditate and do it often are 10 times more likely to experience some form of synesthesia, all without taking LSD. He claims for most people it is there in his words, "hovering under the edge of consciousness."

Having said that after watching the video's and when I finish the book, will summarize what really stood out, was unusual or astounding to me.

http://sciencestage.com/v/19089/synesthesia:-a-film-by-jonathan-fowler.html"

Watch this short http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o39TiACe4mw" if you hear anything, you may have synesthesia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj8f_Bg8cdg"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOdZGbxexz0&feature=related"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj8f_Bg8cdg"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj8f_Bg8cdg"

Finally:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00izxEm5kD4&feature=related"

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

I just watched those Hirshhorn videos. Very engaging.

The part about seeing auras being a form of synesthesia was fascinating for two reasons: 1.) I once saw an aura around someone, and 2.)A guy here (Pit2) once started a thread in Skepticism and Debunking suggesting this very possibility; that seeing auras might just be a form of synesthesia. A pretty good intuitive leap it turns out.

Just as Cytowic said, the aura I saw was around a stranger and was, therefore, colorless (because I had no emotional connection to her). Additionally this happened after I had been meditating regularly for a while. (For those who haven't watched the videos, he recommends that if a non-synesthete wants to experience it the best way is to meditate rather than take acid.

He said seeing auras around people or objects was the very simplest form of synesthesia, and when the colors of the aura become more complex the more you know someone it's called "emotionally mediated synesthesia".

He said that mystical "adepts", i.e. people who've meditated for years, usually have developed multimodal synesthesia. Everyone has the potential to experience it. Some people are genetically predisposed to experience it effortlessly.

 

[rhody]

I just watched those Hirshhorn videos. Very engaging.

The part about seeing auras being a form of synesthesia was fascinating for two reasons: 1.) I once saw an aura around someone, and 2.)A guy here (Pit2) once started a thread in Skepticism and Debunking suggesting this very possibility; that seeing auras might just be a form of synesthesia. A pretty good intuitive leap it turns out.

Just as Cytowic said, the aura I saw was around a stranger and was, therefore, colorless (because I had no emotional connection to her). Additionally this happened after I had been meditating regularly for a while. (For those who haven't watched the videos, he recommends that if a non-synesthete wants to experience it the best way is to meditate rather than take acid.

He said seeing auras around people or objects was the very simplest form of synesthesia, and when the colors of the aura become more complex the more you know someone it's called "emotionally mediated synesthesia".

He said that mystical "adepts", i.e. people who've meditated for years, usually have developed multimodal synesthesia. Everyone has the potential to experience it. Some people are genetically predisposed to experience it effortlessly.

Zooby,

Nice to hear your insights, what stood out to me is the guy who Cytowic mentions who has perfect memory, (due to 5 fold synesthesia in all of his senses). Are these traits common to many people who exhibit photographic like memory ? Are they required ? I have to imagine that not as many folks have 5 fold synesthesia, due to the genetic component(s) suspected, implying more genetic variation in those who have it in only 1 or 2 senses.

A bit off topic, but I wanted to ask your one time opinion on this, if you are familiar with Edgar Caycee (I know, please PF Mentors, don't banish this thread to the debunking forum because of it ! lol). The famous documented psychic "Edgar Caycee" could see aura's around people, and all of his readings (with stenographer) were made with him lying in a relaxed quiet position (perfect setting for the effect). The trouble is he went further than simple uses of aura's, he "claimed to be able to remotely view or pass harmlessly" through a person's body and describe internal health conditions from anywhere on earth. My question is, is there evidence for synesthesia effects, combined with other as yet undiagnosed physical conditions that could really explain Caycee's seemingly pretty good track record at diagnosing people's health conditions ?

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zooby,

Nice to hear your insights, what stood out to me is the guy who Cytowic mentions who has perfect memory, (due to 5 fold synesthesia in all of his senses). Are these traits common to many people who exhibit photographic like memory ? Are they required ? I have to imagine that not as many folks have 5 fold synesthesia, due to the genetic component(s) suspected, implying more genetic variation in those who have it in only 1 or 2 senses.

I don't think synesthesia is required for an involuntary super memory, but it could be that some form of neurological problem is. That well known character who recently passed away, Kim Peaks, was a sort of autistic savant. He remembered every word he'd ever read in his life, but the couldn't really explain the meaning of a lot of it. In the videos Cytowic characterized autism as the "opposite" of synesthesia, you may recall (during the Q & A).

My question is, is there evidence for synesthesia effects, combined with other as yet undiagnosed physical conditions that could really explain Caycee's seemingly pretty good track record at diagnosing people's health conditions ?

I have to suppose that these people had sent him letters with specific complaints. It seems that with a modicum of medical knowledge he ought to have been able to simply diagnose them from the symptoms they reported.

 

[waht]

Brilliant Rhody. I'm going get some popcorn and watch Cytowic's lectures this evening.

Just a quick question. Do the red areas indicate activity or inactivity in the brain?

 

[rhody]

I have to suppose that these people had sent him letters with specific complaints. It seems that with a modicum of medical knowledge he ought to have been able to simply diagnose them from the symptoms they reported.

It has been at least 10 years since I picked up a book about Caycee, but I am pretty sure that many of his readings were of the "blind" type with no advance knowledge of the individual or situation, just name, age and location. As you state he may have had a background in medical diagnosis, but in his lifetime he made over 30,000 readings all now available to the public in a library in Virginia Beach. Whatever skill he did have seemed to me at least, was beyond chance, and educated guessing. He has a following that exists to this day.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

Brilliant Rhody. I'm going get some popcorn and watch Cytowic's lectures this evening.

Just a quick question. Do the red areas indicate activity or inactivity in the brain?

Thats funny you say that because I said something similar, "I will sit here with my popcorn" in my thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=389372" awhile back. I think the red areas are the activity response from the stimulus given.

Rhody...

 

[waht]

Thats funny you say that because I said something similar, "I will sit here with my popcorn" in my thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=389372" awhile back.

Lol, I thought I'd get away. Actually I've watched a youtube engineering vblog couple of days ago, and someone commented

I'm going to grab a beer and some popcorn and enjoy my next hour of engineering bliss

that's how I remembered it. Although I think the youtube comment actually reinforced the latent memory of your comment and pushed it up the stack in the list of cool comments to use.

 

[zoobyshoe]

As you state he may have had a background in medical diagnosis, but in his lifetime he made over 30,000 readings all now available to the public in a library in Virginia Beach. Whatever skill he did have seemed to me at least, was beyond chance, and educated guessing.

I wouldn't be impressed unless there are 30,000 confirmatory letters from verifiable medical doctors on file with the readings. In most cases like this the impressive stories that get repeated over and over have simply been cherry picked from the 'hits', and the misses are swept under the carpet.

 

[rhody]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Cytowic#p/a/f/0/ex8UYOJtddA"

This talk, by Dr Cytowic, one hour with about 10 or so minutes with a question and answer period is very good, even better than the four eight minute segments I posted a few posts ago.

Interesting notes from the talk:

1. 1989 color area of the brain discovered.​

2. 150 different couplings of synesthesia cataloged so far.​

3. Research in 15 countries is being done, serious science papers are being published.​

4. Synesthesia is almost always directional, there are rare bidirectional synesthestes and they find themselves obevwhelmed by the barrage of sensation and tend to live voluntarily quiet, sequestered lives.​

5. 1 in 23 have some kind of synesthesia, most common is sensing the days of the week as a color.​

6. 1 in 90 have lexical (letters induce color).​

7. sounds stimulate taste, childhood foodnames act as templates for taste.​

8. Richard Feynman had number form of it (number sense in spatial coordinates around one's body. He once said to his students, "I talk about equations with tan j's and violet x's flying about, and I wonder what the hell it looks like to students !".​

9. 1 in 10 have the number form of synesthesia. Can have number form without synesthesia, if you have synesthesia you have a 60% chance of having the number form.​

10. Research has found a new brain area, over learned sequence area (number associated with colors).​

11. Very first cognitive tree in which science can map its gene for a single nucleotide mutation can alter how ones perceives the world. (Cytowic's comment: Sublime !).​

12. Synesthesia exists not in a area or group of areas in the brain but is spread out over many structures.​

13. Has to do with excitation and inhibition of existing pathways in the brain, increased simultaneous excitation in pathways is the cause. When the excitation is "calmed" the synesthesia effect is not present.​

14. Test yourself for the various forms here: http://www.synesthete.org/" , They have analyzed over 7000 people so far with this test.​

15. Conclusion: crosstalk among the senses is "normal".​

16. Marilyn Monroe, had synesthesia, Normal Mailers bio of her, "she has a displacement of the senses that others take drugs to find".​

17. Cytowic says that synesthesia is: "a peephole that opens a broad new window on the mind".​

18. During the question and answer session, one mother stood up to tell Dr Cytowic of a disadvantage of having it, her child, who has it, was made ill (I assume from taste) when he heard the teacher speak in class, and had to be placed in another one to keep from getting sick.​

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

All I will say right now is that my older daughter is a very gifted artist. Her teachers have said that "art is her life". She exhibted unusual understanding of shapes as early as 18 months, and drew pictures of people "thinking". For example a stick picture of a man with his legs in the air, $ signs in his eyes, and a pile of coins at the bottom. When I asked her what this picture was about, she said "He's jumping for joy because he's rich". Eighteen months old. She scared me.

Evo,

After reading what has been presented here so far, has your mind been put somewhat at ease ? I hope so.

Rhody...

 

[Ben Niehoff]

I also have letter-color synaesthesia. The colors are typically very specific shades, and sometimes they seem to have other qualities such as shininess or translucence. Someone earlier mentioned that A tends to be red, B blue, and C yellow. However, for me, A is a reddish orange, B is light blue, C is pale yellow. E is bright, cherry red.

 

[zoobyshoe]

5. 1 in 23 have it, most common is sensing the days of the week as a color.​

9. 1 in 10 have the number form of synesthesia.​

Seems like these two contradict each other. Also, in the Hirshhorn videos he said 1 in 200 have some form of it.

So, I'm pretty confused about the statistics.

 

[rhody]

Seems like these two contradict each other. Also, in the Hirshhorn videos he said 1 in 200 have some form of it.

So, I'm pretty confused about the statistics.

zooby,

After a second look, at 7:15 in his presentation, Cytowic states, about 1 in 23 people have some form of synesthesia, and that the most common kind is sensing days of the week as color. At 12:00 he says, about 1 in 10 people have the number form without synesthesia, and you have synesthesia you have about a 60% chance of having a number form. I am a bit confused as well, because about a minute before he was introducing the number form describing it with a visual, further qualifying it as spatial sequence synesthesia, because what numbers, calendars, shoe sizes, temperatures, etc... are is that they are all over learned sequences. Listen to these two segments carefully and see if your interpretation is what I reported above.
I look at it this way, the section from 11 to 12 minutes is complex, linked and detailed, maybe critical focus was lost and he did not fully clarify what he intended to say.

I have amended the list on the previous post to reflect the stats for 1 in 23 and 1 in 10 to my best understanding.

Rhody...

 

[rhody]

I also have letter-color synaesthesia. The colors are typically very specific shades, and sometimes they seem to have other qualities such as shininess or translucence. Someone earlier mentioned that A tends to be red, B blue, and C yellow. However, for me, A is a reddish orange, B is light blue, C is pale yellow. E is bright, cherry red.

Ben,

Interesting, Cytowic reports that people with color synesthesia have a greater sensitivity to color. Even after taking the test (in link above) twice a year apart from one another report very similar color matches than those (non synesthetes) who took the same test(s) a year apart. The people that did not have synesthesia were all over the map in their color choices, whereas the people with synesthesia reported colors very close to their original results in the first test. This reinforces the belief that the sensation remains relatively constant throughout one's life, and that people who report to have it (and don't) can be easily identified as imposters from the test results.

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

I look at it this way, the section from 11 to 12 minutes is complex, linked and detailed, maybe critical focus was lost and he did not fully clarify what he intended to say.

This is probably it. Thanks for checking into that for me, I haven't watched this one yet.