Telepathy: Rupert Sheldrake & Evidence from "The Sense of Being Stared At

[Happeh]

I apologize for butting in here but what does it mean to be "western"? I am not sure if I am western or not? I live in Los Angeles and that's on the west coast of the U.S.

I use western as in western world. I usually mean caucasion people from Europe or the USA.

 

[SGT]

This seems incredibly trivial to me. I am at a loss as to how to make it more simple. EDIT: Did I make it clear that the origin point is the focal point of the energy of the body? What I am saying is that as the origin point moved from it's normal centered position, the focus of the energy moves with it. Whatever part of the brain is under the focal point, that point would be recieiving the majority of stimulation to the brain.



You are wrong.
EDIT: I need to say that I probably use energy in confusing ways. There is energy as you describe above. I also use energy to describe the intent of a person. If a person's body was focused on an object, I would describe that as "they are putting their energy on that object".




Can you feel your internal organs? Where they are and what they currently this minute feel like? That is going inside of your body. Most western people's awareness resides in the outer layer of their body only.

Well, may be I must activate my third eye in order to grasp your simple ideas.

 

[PIT2]

Here is an interesting paper on Quantum Telepathy:

Even though some superphysical phenomena may be not real, telepathy does exist. Its usual display is that between the familiar people, say twins, relatives or friends, one can perceive the other's happening, say being sick or being injured etc, at a distance. Many people have this kind of experience. At present, the telepathy phenomena have been confirmed by some strict scientific experiments[1-3], and are being studied by more scientists. One of the most convincing experiments was done in 1994 by Grinberg-Zylberbaum et al[2].

In their experiment, pairs of subjects were first allowed to meditate together, and then put into two semisilent Faraday chambers 14.5m apart. Their EEG activities are registered by two EEG machines. One subject of each pair was stimulated by 100 flashes at random intervals, and each photostimulation resulted in an evoked potentials for the stimulated subject. It is observed that, when the stimulated subject showed distinct evoked potentials, the nonstimulated subject showed "transferred potentials" similar to the evoked potentials in the stimulated subject, at the same time, the subjects both felt their interaction had been successfully completed. Since the subjects were separated by the soundproof faraday chambers, this experiment guarantees that neither sensory signals nor electromagnetic signals is the means of communication, and thus strictly demonstrate the existence of nonlocal correlations between human brains.

http://cogprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00003065/01/qmt.pdf

They also mention a theory called "Quantum Superluminal Communication":

“If our quantum model of telepathy is confirmed by the experiments, then it can be naturally used as one new kind of quantum superluminal communication (QSC) means. Compared with the conventional wire and wireless communication, such new kind of communication will undoubtedly have more advantages. First, the transfer delay of QSC is irrelevant to the communication distance, and can be zero in principle, thus QSC is the fastest communication means. Secondly, the carriers of information may not pass the space between the sender and receiver for QSC, thus the communication process is not influenced by the in-between environment, and QSC is one kind of complete anti-jamming communication means. Thirdly, since the carriers of information can be only stored in the sender and receiver for QSC, the third party can't eavesdrop the transferred information, thus QSC is the most secret communication means. Lastly, there is no electro-magnetic radiation for QSC, and it is one kind of green communication means.

 

[SGT]

Here is an interesting paper on Quantum Telepathy:



They also mention a theory called "Quantum Superluminal Communication":

How did they measure the delay for stating that QSC is faster than light?

 

[PIT2]

How did they measure the delay for stating that QSC is faster than light?

The bit about QSC is theory i believe. But perhaps there are some experiments mentioned, i haven't read the whole paper.

 

[SGT]

The bit about QSC is theory i believe. But perhaps there are some experiments mentioned, i haven't read the whole paper.

A scientific theory must make predictions that can be tested. If they theorized that QSC is faster than light, they must measure the time delay between sending and receiving.

 

[PIT2]

A scientific theory must make predictions that can be tested. If they theorized that QSC is faster than light, they must measure the time delay between sending and receiving.

In the paper they mention some experiments that could be done.

 

[SGT]

In the paper they mention some experiments that could be done.

Have they done those experiments? If they didn't it is not a theory yet. It's only a hypothesis. Only after the experiments don't falsify the hypothesis, can it be considered a theory.

 

[PIT2]

Have they done those experiments? If they didn't it is not a theory yet. It's only a hypothesis. Only after the experiments don't falsify the hypothesis, can it be considered a theory.

They call QSC a principle in the paper:

In the following, we will analyze the above telepathy experiment in terms of the principle of quantum superluminal communication (QSC)[4-11]. According to the principle of QSC, the proper combination of dynamical collapse of wave function and consciousness of observer will permit the non-electromagnetic superluminal transmission of information. It will be shown that this may provide an possible explanation of the above telepathy experimental results, and indicate that the telepathy process may be realized based on the quantum process in brains.

They also mention a theoretical model:

4. A quantum theoretical model of telepathy process

On the basis of the principle of QSC and the above analyses, we will present a primary theoretical model of telepathy process. In this model, the telepathy process includes three phases.

 

[SGT]

They call QSC a principle in the paper:



They also mention a theoretical model:

And I suppose they arrived at this principle either through their third eye or by receiving a telepathic transmission from highly evolved aliens. Nothing in our present understanding of physics allows for '

the proper combination of dynamical collapse of wave function and consciousness of observer

 

[PIT2]

And I suppose they arrived at this principle either through their third eye or by receiving a telepathic transmission from highly evolved aliens. Nothing in our present understanding of physics allows for '

The interpretation of QM in which consciousness causes the collapse of the wavefunction is just as valid as any of the other interpretations.

 

[SGT]

The interpretation of QM in which consciousness causes the collapse of the wavefunction is just as valid as any of the other interpretations.

Do you, or the proponents of this hypothesis have any idea of the meaning of the expression collapse of the wavefunction?

 

[PIT2]

Do you, or the proponents of this hypothesis have any idea of the meaning of the expression collapse of the wavefunction?

Irrelevant. Whether one is a proponent or an opponent, it is a valid interpretation of QM.

(and btw, yes i think i have a decent idea of what it means, but I am no QM expert of course)

 

[SGT]

Irrelevant. Whether one is a proponent or an opponent, it is a valid interpretation of QM.

(and btw, yes i think i have a decent idea of what it means, but I am no QM expert of course)

And can you see it happening in the macro world? If yes, please explain it to me. In my understanding wavefunction is a property associated to particles, not to sets of particles like a rock or a human being.

 

[PIT2]

And can you see it happening in the macro world? If yes, please explain it to me. In my understanding wavefunction is a property associated to particles, not to sets of particles like a rock or a human being.

Well i haven't yet invented a theory of everything, so no, i cannot explain it to u.

But since we are talking about consciousness experiencing telepathy, it is even unclear whether it belongs in the micro or macroscopic domain, or both. After all, what is the size of a thought?

 

[zoobyshoe]

The set up reported in the quote you provided, Pit2, sounds pretty good, although I am a bit leary of the fact they only specified that the two Faraday cages were "soundproof". Call me a stickler, but I want to be assured they were both "light proof". It would mean nothing at all if it turned out the second subject could see the flashes off in the distance. If he could, there would be no mystery whatever to his having "simlar" evoked potentials.


The other thing I would want to know is what they mean by "similar". EEGs are notoriously hard to read, and can be interfered with in many ways. They are notoriously sensitive to any EM waves in the vicinity, especially fluoresent lamps. If the lamps inside the Faraday cages were plugged into the same lines as the strobe lights, then there in a good chance those lamps would oscillate slightly along with the strobe light.
The "similar" evoked potentials, could well have been picked up from the lamps, and not the person's head. This would have undercut a main point of putting the people in the Faraday cages to begin with.

Do they show the EEG tracings comparing the responses of the two subjects during the strobe stimulation? (I would look myself, but I can't open pdf files.)

Their point is to show there is telepathy, and that it is not electromagnetic. Their set up seems sound to me in principle, but you wouldn't believe the dumb mistakes people can make. So, I would like to be sure that the cages were lightproof, and that all the equipment had independent power.

 

[SGT]

Well i haven't yet invented a theory of everything, so no, i cannot explain it to u.

But since we are talking about consciousness experiencing telepathy, it is even unclear whether it belongs in the micro or macroscopic domain, or both. After all, what is the size of a thought?

Wavefunctions are associated to material particles. Is a thought material?

 

[PIT2]

The experiment u are talking about (by Grinberg-Zylberbaum) is only briefly mentioned in the paper. The details u are requesting arent in it.

Oh and SGT, about how they intend to measure quantum superluminal communication:

(1). Complete the experiment at much longer distance, say longer than the bound distance 40km, in which the possible classical signals with light speed can’t be used to explain the statistical relevance between the potentials of the subjects. Thus we can strictly confirm that telepathy is one kind of superluminal and non-electromagnetic phenomena, and further confirm the existence of “QSC condition” in human brains.
(2). Replace the flashes with flickering light. Here the evoked potentials of the stimulated subject will contain some measurable frequency information. It is expected that the corresponding transferred potentials of the other subject will contain the same measurable frequency information. Then we can use the transferred frequency information to realize non-electromagnetic and superluminal human brain communication more reliably.

http://cogprints.org/3065/01/qmt.pdf

 

[PIT2]

Wavefunctions are associated to material particles. Is a thought material?

lol is that supposed to be a trick question?

Anyway, whether a thought is material or not is unfortunately unknown. And exactly what is 'material', is also unknown.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The experiment u are talking about (by Grinberg-Zylberbaum) is only briefly mentioned in the paper. The details u are requesting arent in it.

Oh and SGT, about how they intend to measure quantum superluminal communication:

If they simply prove telepathy, then the superluminal gibberish is pretty much irrelevant.

If the evoked potentials are picked up be the second subject at a large distance like that, it should be headline news around the world in and of itself. If there's anything to it, then any other teams who tries it should have equal success. I think Evo and her daughter ought to be tested this way.

 

[PIT2]

If they simply prove telepathy, then the superluminal gibberish is pretty much irrelevant.

The paper is not about proving telepathy, but about theorising how it might work.

Heres the introduction from the .pdf:

The physical nature of Psi phenomena such as telepathy is an important problem in the life information science. Scientists have confirmed the existence of telepathy phenomena through many strict experiments[1-3]. Then can modern science (e.g. quantum theory) provide a scientific explanation for telepathy phenomena? In this paper, we will seek the possible quantum nature of telepathy from both theoretical and experimental respects, and present a primary quantum model of telepathy phenomena. It will be shown that, according to the principle of quantum superluminal communication (QSC)[4-11], quantum theory can in principle provide a scientific explanation of telepathy phenomena, and some experiments have indicated the validity of this explanation[6]. Furthermore, we will propose a serious of feasible experimental schemes to test the quantum model, and discuss the technical possibility of realizing controllable and applicable human brain communication on the basis of the proposed experimental schemes. Lastly, we give some remarks and expectations about the technical virtue and application foreground of such communication means.

 

[SGT]

The paper is not about proving telepathy, but about theorising how it might work.

Heres the introduction from the .pdf:

The introduction starts with a questionable affirmation:

Scientists have confirmed the existence of telepathy phenomena through many strict experiments[1-3].

So far no repeatable experiment confirmed the existence of telepathy. The fact that the million dollar prize offered by The James Randi Foundation is still being offered is a strong indication of this.
And don't tell me that researchers in paranormal phenomena don't care for money. Any scientist would be glad to have such a grant for his/her researches.

 

[PIT2]

The introduction starts with a questionable affirmation:
So far no repeatable experiment confirmed the existence of telepathy. The fact that the million dollar prize offered by The James Randi Foundation is still being offered is a strong indication of this.

The paper mentions the sources on which this claim is based. Feel free to actually investigate them.

Strangely, i don't see any mention of Randy with his million dollars as a source...

 

[zoobyshoe]

Strangely, i don't see any mention of Randy with his million dollars as a source...

You don't get it, Pit2.

 

[SGT]

The paper mentions the sources on which this claim is based. Feel free to actually investigate them.

Strangely, i don't see any mention of Randy with his million dollars as a source...

Of course not! No bogus investigator will dare to candidate to the prize.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Wavefunctions are associated to material particles.

I hardly know anything about the quantum world, SGT, so maybe you can bring me up to speed a bit. I have been under the impression that the only particle with a waveform that might be collapsed is the photon.

Are there other quantum particles with waveforms that can be collapsed?

 

[persef]

Does telepathy relate to quantum ? how can that be ?

 

[PIT2]

Of course not! No bogus investigator will dare to candidate to the prize.

Ur reasoning is illogical.

"oh randy hasnt given his million dollars away yet, so the investigators must be 'bogus'"

Please, try to remain objective and critical. As i said before, the sources are given in the paper.

(btw, i wouldn't want to give my billion dollars away either )

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I hardly know anything about the quantum world, SGT, so maybe you can bring me up to speed a bit. I have been under the impression that the only particle with a waveform that might be collapsed is the photon.

Are there other quantum particles with waveforms that can be collapsed?

Quantum systems remain in an undefined state until measured. Note however that the definition of a measurement is still the subject of debate. There are plenty of good links in the Credible Anomalies Napster: See "The Measurement Problem".

As for your question, consider as an example a two slit diffraction experiment using one electron. Just as with light, if we measure the system in such as way that we know which slit the electron passes through, the wavefunction is collapsed and the electron acts like a particle instead of a wave. In this respect there is no difference between the photon, electron, or any subatomic particle; a wave acts like a wave. If we measure for a unique position - one way to collapse the wavefunction - we find a thing that acts like a particle.

 

[zoobyshoe]

As for your question, consider as an example a two slit diffraction experiment using one electron.

Does an electron, or any other particle, exhibit the same "self-interference" a photon does in a double slit experiment?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Sure enough; the same wave equations apply to all. Many physics students do an electron diffraction experiment as part of the required lab work.

The wave itself is a statement of probability of the state or value we will get if we make a measurement on the system.

Edit: Strictly speaking, the wave function is used to calculate the expectation value for any observable of the system.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Sure enough; the same wave equations apply to all. Many physics students do an electron diffraction experiment as part of the required lab work.

Is the equipement expensive and specialized? In other words, would you only expect to find it at MIT and CalTech, or is it in the range of any school?

The wave itself is a statement of probability of the state or value we will get if we make a measurement on the system.

Edit: Strictly speaking, the wave function is used to calculate the expectation value for any observable of the system.

This takes some pondering. If I think about it in conjunction with Feynman's insistence in QED that photons are particles, and not waves, then it suggests to me that the "wave function" never refers to any literal wave at all. Rather it seems to mean that what is always a particle has to be analyzed as if it were a wave because this is the only mathematical way to get any traction on the always uncertain arrival point of the particle.

Speaking of a "collapse of the wavefunction" suggests the literal image of a wave, in water, say, traveling out in all directions from a source, and then suddenly contracting all its momentum and energy into a single impact point concentrated on the first obstacle it encounters. I can also, with a little more effort, imagine the same thing happening to an expanding three dimensional spherical shell consisting of comressed air, as in a sound wave. I'm pretty sure, though, these mental models of "wave function" are completely wrong, and that any particle in question always remains a particle despite not traveling in a straight line from source to detector.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The equipment required for electron diffraction is nominal. We did this experiment at OSU which is hardly known for its physics department budget.

The questions of measurement, collapse, and entanglement are all incredibly intriguing - the motivation for my own physics degree, really - and to a large extent they remain unresolved.

From the Napster: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=58374

Measurement in Quantum Theory
From the inception of Quantum Mechanics (QM) the concept of measurement has proved a source of difficulty. The Einstein-Bohr debates, out of which both the Einstein Podolski Rosen paradox and Schrödinger's cat paradox developed, centered upon this difficulty. The problem of measurement in quantum mechanics arises out of the fact that several principles of the theory appear to be in conflict. In particular, the dynamic principles of quantum mechanics seem to be in conflict with the postulate of collapse. David Albert puts the problem nicely when he says:

'The dynamics and the postulate of collapse are flatly in contradiction with one another ... the postulate of collapse seems to be right about what happens when we make measurements, and the dynamics seems to be bizarrely wrong about what happens when we make measurements, and yet the dynamics seems to be right about what happens whenever we aren't making measurements.' (Albert 1992, 79)

This has come to be known as "the measurement problem" and in what follows, we study the details and examine some of the implications of this problem. [continued]

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-measurement/

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We shouldn't get too far off topic here.

 

[zoobyshoe]

We shouldn't get too far off topic here.

I'm trying to set up some structure within which to examine the notion of the non-electromagnetic, faster than light energy being proposed as the medium of telepathy.