The Force Awakens Spoiler Thread

[Noisy Rhysling]

How long after he left did Craig Daniels cave to the Force?

I don't buy the Rey/Ren connection, not after what happened in the basement of the bar.

 

[Heisenburgundy Gold]

That opening counter argument makes no sense whatsoever? Rey mind controlling him goes in line with the Rey & Kylo force bond theory along with all the others examples I presented which you chose to ignore.

And if in the basement you mean finding the saber that is more proof Rey and Kylo are connected. After all it was Ben's saber. He even said so in the movie, when he saw Finn holding it..."that saber! It belongs to me!" So yeah Ben Solo's saber calling to Rey has some big implications.

Just because you don't like the idea doesn't change the fact that it's there. It's all in the movie so if you don't like it you can take it up with JJ Abraham and the writers for putting it in the story. And take it up with the official Star Wars website and it's database for saying the two "formed a mysterious bond." And Daisy and Adam for portraying their characters the way they did?

 

[Orodruin]

After all it was Ben's saber.

No it wasn't. It was the Anakin/Luke saber. He might consider it "his" and desire it due to his obsession with Vader, but there need not be much more to it than that.

Your theory also does not explain why a large number of people seem to know who Ray is, which you could also reasonably argue is all there in the acting.

 

[Heisenburgundy Gold]

No it wasn't. It was the Anakin/Luke saber. He might consider it "his" and desire it due to his obsession with Vader, but there need not be much more to it than that.

Your theory also does not explain why a large number of people seem to know who Ray is, which you could also reasonably argue is all there in the acting.

Did you miss the part where Ben "That saber belongs to me!" Which according to the novelization he recognized. How else would he have known it was his grandfather's then uncle's old weapon? When Anakin went full on Darth Vader he wasn't using his old saber anymore so it's not like there was a myriad of footage floating around with him using it. In fact most people didn't even know Anakin and Vader were the same person until well after Return of the Jedi and a couple years before the events of The Force Awakens.

Yeah it was Luke's but he built a new saber after he lost his first one. Obviously it was found and it would make sense for him to give his old one to his nephew. It is a family heirloom so giving it to the youngest member of the family who is learning the force would make sense.

Hail when Han saw the saber for the first time it brought out a look of anger and revulsion. And it is easy to ascertain Han did not approve of his son joining Luke's academy and using the force. It is easy to conclude he saw the saber as the first step that sent his boy spiraling to the dark side. If it was just Lukes why would it bring out such strong emotions in Han?

No one in the movie recognized Rey. Not Han; who wanted to dump her and Finn on the nearest inhabited star system the first chance he and Chewie got. If he was her uncle and she was missing all these years why would he let her out of his sight after finding her, by pure happenstance? He didn't even know her name. He had to ask her. And if he did know Rey and her backstory why was he going to let her go back to Jakku and wait for someone who is never coming back? Wouldn't he had told her "Rey I'm your family. I know your dad and my wife Leia is your aunt."

Speaking of Leia she didn't know Rey either. When she was kidnapped by her son she was more concerned with pumping Finn for more information about Star Killer Base than rescuing her supposed "niece." If Rey was related to her saving her would have been priority number one or at least as important as getting information about SKB.

When Kylo captured Rey Han wasn't as concerned as an uncle whose niece was kidnapped, by his own son nonetheless. He blew Finn off to talk to Leia and all they talked about was him seeing Ben. Not once did he throw in "by the way I found Luke's kid." Just small talk and what caused their marriage to fail. They would be horrible relatives to not show any emotion over a long lost family member being abducted.

And Leia never met Rey until after Han died. That was the first time the two ever met. JJ Abraham said so himself. You know who he said never met Rey until TFA, as well? Kylo Ren her supposed cousin. In the movies commentary track the director said Ben and Reys first time meeting was in Takodana Woods when he captured her.

And no Maz didn't know or say Rey is a Skywalker either. The opposite really. "Whoever your waiting for on Jakku is not coming back; The belonging your waiting for lies ahead not behind you." Seeing as how she is spending most of The Last Jedi with Luke and Kylo that eliminates them as the ones who left her behind. The only reason Maz asked who the girl was is because she is force sensitive and sensed Rey was too. The only thing Han told her was the same thing we the audience already knew so there was no point in showing us what he told her. All that moment was meant to do was foreshadow there is something special about Rey.

Lastly Luke's expression at the end of the movie wasn't that of a man who discovered his long lost child. Hail seeing the saber is the only thing that brought out any recognition. His face wasn't that of someone happy to see Rey, at all. Even Daisy Ridley said his face was saying, who are you? What are you doing here and why do you have my old weapon?

 

[Orodruin]

Did you miss the part where Ben "That saber belongs to me!" Which according to the novelization he recognized.

No. Again, it is Ben's sentiment that the saber belongs to him.

Yeah it was Luke's but he built a new saber after he lost his first one. Obviously it was found and it would make sense for him to give his old one to his nephew. It is a family heirloom so giving it to the youngest member of the family who is learning the force would make sense.

This is pure speculation and obviously depends on how it was found and by whom.

When Kylo captured Rey Han wasn't as concerned as an uncle whose niece was kidnapped, by his own son nonetheless. He blew Finn off to talk to Leia and all they talked about was him seeing Ben. Not once did he throw in "by the way I found Luke's kid." Just small talk and what caused their marriage to fail. They would be horrible relatives to not show any emotion over a long lost family member being abducted.

You assume that everything would ve said on screen. This is clearly not the case, eg, in Maz's cantina. Besides, it has the logical fallacy of presenting counter arguments of one theory as proof of the other. The theories are not exhaustive nor mutually exclusive as far as I can tell.

Lastly Luke's expression at the end of the movie wasn't that of a man who discovered his long lost child. Hail seeing the saber is the only thing that brought out any recognition. His face wasn't that of someone happy to see Rey, at all. Even Daisy Ridley said his face was saying, who are you? What are you doing here and why do you have my old weapon?

Again, same logical fallacy.

 

[Heisenburgundy Gold]

No. Again, it is Ben's sentiment that the saber belongs to him.This is pure speculation and obviously depends on how it was found and by whom.You assume that everything would ve said on screen. This is clearly not the case, eg, in Maz's cantina. Besides, it has the logical fallacy of presenting counter arguments of one theory as proof of the other. The theories are not exhaustive nor mutually exclusive as far as I can tell.Again, same logical fallacy.

It was in the novelization he recognized it. The novel are canon. There is no arguing that. And it's funny how you completely ignored the reasons why I said it belonged to Ben and he wouldn't know it was granddads. That line was put into the movie for a reason...it use to be his. It really is that simple. Who and how the saber was found is irrelevant. All that matters was it was found and given to Luke and or Ben which is the only way he would've known it belonged to his family. Like I said he possessed it at one point; it belonging to Anakin wouldn't mean anything because he idolizes Vader. Not his grandfather's days as a Jedi, fighting for good which is when The elder Skywalker used it.

Important pieces of information are said on screen or at least hinted at. Leaving it off screen and hoping the audience would fathom a crucial piece of information doesn't make sense from a storytelling standpoint. There was never any mention of Luke having children. If it was there would have been some on screen discussion of Luke missing a kid. Or some visual tell to know Luke lost his family. All someone had to say was "since Luke's daughter went missing he hasn't been the same. It was the final push that made him disappear." That's basic writing 101; you always leave some small clue so a major plot doesn't come out of nowhere and confuses the audience. The only time you don't show or say something on screen is to avoid repetitive information like when Maz asked Han who Rey was. We already knew what Han did. If he had told her something we didn't then Maz would have filled us in.

By your standards of saying it doesn't have to be seen or heard in the movie (that is real speculations without facts to back it up) I could claim Batman was in the movie. It was said offscreen and he was wearing a disguise but the characters said so, we just didn't get to hear it.

Once again you gloss over things that are facts that were stated by members of the creative team. JJ saying Rey never met Leia and Kylo before TFA; Daisy herself said Luke looked at Rey like she was a stranger; JJ himself said Rey's parents were not in The Force Awakens. These are not speculations but things that were actually in the movie and books, or people involved with making the actual source material.

 

[Orodruin]

So you decide to continue the argument along the lines "you are wrong, so I must be right" even after the logical fallacy has been pointed out to you. Very interesting. I am done with this conversation since you do not seem to have anything constructive to add.

By your standards of saying it doesn't have to be seen or heard in the movie (that is real speculations without facts to back it up) I could claim Batman was in the movie. It was said offscreen and he was wearing a disguise but the characters said so, we just didn't get to hear it.

This is a ridiculous reductio ad absurdum atgument.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

That opening counter argument makes no sense whatsoever? Rey mind controlling him goes in line with the Rey & Kylo force bond theory along with all the others examples I presented which you chose to ignore.

Not ignore, dismiss.

And if in the basement you mean finding the saber that is more proof Rey and Kylo are connected. After all it was Ben's saber. He even said so in the movie, when he saw Finn holding it..."that saber! It belongs to me!" So yeah Ben Solo's saber calling to Rey has some big implications.

Sorry, but Ben is saying he is the heir to that saber, not that he owned it before and Google Eyes somehow got it from him.

Just because you don't like the idea doesn't change the fact that it's there. It's all in the movie so if you don't like it you can take it up with JJ Abraham and the writers for putting it in the story. And take it up with the official Star Wars website and it's database for saying the two "formed a mysterious bond." And Daisy and Adam for portraying their characters the way they did?

I find the idea completely out of line with the movie, nothing more.

 

[Heisenburgundy Gold]

So you decide to continue the argument along the lines "you are wrong, so I must be right" even after the logical fallacy has been pointed out to you. Very interesting. I am done with this conversation since you do not seem to have anything constructive to add.

This is a ridiculous reductio ad absurdum atgument.

Just because you repeatedly say it's a "logical fallacy" doesn't make it so. Everything I said was in the movie and other source materials. You have provided no evidence that Ben felt entitled to the saber. What logic based on material sources led you to that conclusion? I clearly pointed out my thought process for why I say it was his at one point. Your argument is wishful thinking based on biased for how you want the story to go. Not what is actually in the story.

The Batman part you cherry picked is my point exactly. That is how absurd your argument is. Claiming that something on screen isn't a reliable source but something that may or may not have happened off screen is?

Seems like a case of projecting mate. Yeah I think your right there's no point in continuing this debate. You believe what you want I'll believe what I think and the sequel will tell who is right.