The Grassroots movement , and the Tea Party

[brainstorm]

What specifically do you think the US government should do about that? Take over the UK so that the person's right to free speech is established?

I think this is exactly the question that has to be dealt with regarding the role of US power globally. US authorities have to decide which regimes to legitimate or challenge and which insurgents to recognize as freedom fighters and which as terrorists interested only in replacing freedom with rule by fear. Also, what methods should be advocated and/or supported? Should the US support full scale revolutions or negotiations with more authoritarian governments that allow for freedom-seekers to migrate either to a US state or some other region where freedom and democracy are being expanded?

The constitution is generally a set of ideals that are intended to be applicable to everyone, but the US only has authority over the US, so that's where its boundaries are.

It's not a question of legitimate authority but of power and goals. The British colonial authorities controlled the jurisdiction claimed by the US insurgents, but the insurgents decided to question that authority and declare independence from it. So the question is who has the power to declare independence from whom and how, imo.

On that note, if a non-citizen comes to the US, they still have all the protections under the constitution that a citizen would have, except for the possibility of deportation

That is logical, since the constitution was established as a general ideology of governmental restraint against curtailment of rights and freedoms of individuals. However, the issue of how deportation and hence cooperation with less democratic governments fits with the constitutional ideology should be discussed, imo. For example, I read that several refugees from Cuba were recently picked up and returned to the island. I wonder how much sense it makes for US military authorities to be cooperating with a regime that is being embargoed. On the other hand, if the refugees best hope for freedom is to remain on the island and work toward freedom, perhaps that was the best place for them to have been brought. The bigger issue, however, is why policing national territories against migration has become more important than supporting the pursuit of freedom and democracy.

 

[Office_Shredder]

The bigger issue, however, is why policing national territories against migration has become more important than supporting the pursuit of freedom and democracy.

You make it sound like sound like this is a change in policy or something. The US has never been involved in actively spreading democracy until recently after WWII

 

[brainstorm]

You make it sound like sound like this is a change in policy or something. The US has never been involved in actively spreading democracy until recently after WWII

I think people who wanted democracy/freedom just moved to one of the states prior to that - and there were new states being created as well. Monroe doctrine comes to mind as a curtailment of expansion but I can't remember the details. Certainly there is a long history of global politics regarding the expansion of US ideology and how/why or why not.

 

[Evo]

I think people who wanted democracy/freedom just moved to one of the states prior to that - and there were new states being created as well. Monroe doctrine comes to mind as a curtailment of expansion but I can't remember the details. Certainly there is a long history of global politics regarding the expansion of US ideology and how/why or why not.

What in the world does any of this have to do with the topic of this thread?

The original Tea Party was based on "taxation without representation", this is not the topic of this thread. Please get back to the topic.

 

[mheslep]

Maybe I should clarify what I meant by 'unswayed'. Most of those people did not, to pick a simple illustrative example, believe in the divinity of Christ¹. They probably all agreed that it had some redeeming moral/philosophical value,

Agreed

but that's a far cry from the Christianity espoused by the Palins and the Becks.

You know this how? For all I know Beck's a Deist in the Adams mode, and could have easily made a modern version of that Adam's quote above. The mistake Beck's making here in my view is not per se his particular view of religion, but in his casual mixing of it with politics - something the New Testament warns against in its parables.

Adams, for instance, considered organized Christianity of his time to be a superstition propagating fraud² (and he was probably the one of the most sympathetic towards Christianity among that lot).

I think that needs a caveat in that Adams considered some of the tenets and aspects of organized Christianity of his time to be superstition propagating, just like aspects of today's organized religion. See, e.g., Jefferson's bible. Jefferson did not throw out the New Testament as total hogwash, he spent some considerable time going through it line by line to remove the supernatural aspects and published the remainder.

 

[mheslep]

I don't think that the US constitution is a collective instrument in the way you say "if other countries want to use the same ideas."

Someone already pointed out - you're conflating the Declaration of Independence with the US Constitution. The former states first principles, the latter is a legal frame work for government based in part on the former. The issue is confused by using them interchangeably.

 

[mheslep]

I consider every step forward for the Tea Party, and every primary Republican win for so-called grassroots leaders who appeal in particular to the tea drinkers, to be just more nails in the coffin for the GOP.

Another nail in the coffin:

"[URL Takes Unprecedented 10-Point Lead on Generic Ballot
[/URL]

 

[Al68]

Why shouldn't anyone anywhere be able to declare independence from colonial rule and establish a constitution that enumerates rights and protections for free citizens? If the constitution is not a copyrighted document, why can't they simply make reference to it?

They can, but the U.S. constitution is a legal contract between the states and federal government. Of course outside states can join, that's how the number of member states got to 50.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Another nail in the coffin:

"[URL Takes Unprecedented 10-Point Lead on Generic Ballot
[/URL]

Completely expected given the circumstances. The Republicans did far more damage to the economy than was hoped; and the republican and independent voters cannot yet accept that fact. With the failure of free-market capitalism, supply-side economics, and the devestating consequences of maximized deregulation in the financial markets - to root causes of our problems - the Republicans literally have no credible platform left. But they are good at smoke and mirror shows, which is how they are getting by for now - a gullible public

The liberals are ticked because Obama really isn't a flaming liberal, just as I've always argued.

In his second year, Reagan looked much like Obama does now.

 

[Office_Shredder]

In his second year, Reagan looked much like Obama does now.

Black?

 

[mheslep]

Completely expected given the circumstances. ...

Not according to your OP. You didn't say everyone would be fooled by "smoke and mirrors", instead you forecast doom for the GOP, i.e. "nails in the coffin" and "certain death for the foreseeable future".

 

[Gokul43201]

You know this how? For all I know Beck's a Deist in the Adams mode, and could have easily made a modern version of that Adam's quote above.

For all you know. Did you not know that Beck is a Mormon? That's a little ways down the road from being a Deist in the mould of Adams.

To dispel any doubts read An Unlikely Mormon: The Conversion Story of Glenn Beck by Glenn Beck. If, like me, you don't feel inclined to read the whole book, maybe this blurb (from above link) will suffice:

Glenn Beck is not the man he used to be. “My life changed,” says Glenn. “I may look the same. I may sound the same. But I am not the same man. . . the healing power of Jesus Christ transformed me.”

In this presentation, Glenn Beck tells an audience of nearly 7,000 about his conversion to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. His story is both stirring and sobering. Glenn bears his testimony about home teaching, tithing, and the transforming power of the Spirit. He talks about his addiction to alcohol, the miracle of the Atonement, and the reality that God does answer prayers. In particular, he acknowledges God's hand in how he met his wife, Tania, and in their family's spiritual quest for faith and religion. Funny and inspirational, Glenn's story will strengthen the testimony of any Latter-day Saint. In addition, An Unlikely Mormon will be an ideal missionary tool.

I suspect you have a better idea about Palin's Christianity.

 

[Gokul43201]

I think that needs a caveat in that Adams considered some of the tenets and aspects of organized Christianity of his time to be superstition propagating, just like aspects of today's organized religion. See, e.g., Jefferson's bible. Jefferson did not throw out the New Testament as total hogwash, he spent some considerable time going through it line by line to remove the supernatural aspects and published the remainder.

Jefferson did a whole lot more that just edit out the supernatural parts, but in any case, that's not inconsistent with my reading that these people considered the Bible/Christianity to have some redeeming moral/philosophical value (at least the NT part of the Bible - Jefferson considered the God of the OT to be cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust).

 

[Evo]

For all you know. Did you not know that Beck is a Mormon? That's a little ways down the road from being a Deist in the mould of Adams.

To dispel any doubts read An Unlikely Mormon: The Conversion Story of Glenn Beck by Glenn Beck. If, like me, you don't feel inclined to read the whole book, maybe this blurb (from above link) will suffice:

I suspect you have a better idea about Palin's Christianity.

Does anyone else feel truly frightened when they read stuff like this from people that are trying to hold positions of power?

 

[Gokul43201]

Check out this Apocalyptic message from Beck this week (from the wiki on Beck):

"I believe we're approaching a last call, all aboard. I had nightmares last night, because I felt maybe I wasn't clear enough. The message I feel I'm supposed to give you is get behind the shield of God."​

Or Beck's insistence that a flock of geese flying over his rally was a miracle from God ...

Juxtapose that with Thomas Paine, who Beck refers to as the Glenn Beck of the Revolution.

 

[edward]

There is a great irony in that most of the radical Christian right are Evangelicals. They believe that the Mormon church is a cult.

The tea party has been hijacked by a group called Americans For Prosperity. They are Libertarians headed by the Koch billionaire brothers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html

The Billionaires Bankrolling the Tea Party

Last week the Kochs were shoved unwillingly into the spotlight by the most comprehensive journalistic portrait of them yet, written by Jane Mayer of The New Yorker. Her article caused a stir among those in Manhattan’s liberal elite who didn’t know that David Koch, widely celebrated for his cultural philanthropy, is not merely another rich conservative Republican but the founder of the Americans for Prosperity Foundation, which, as Mayer writes with some understatement, “has worked closely with the Tea Party since the movement’s inception.” To New Yorkers who associate the David H. Koch Theater at Lincoln Center with the New York City Ballet, it’s startling to learn that the Texas branch of that foundation’s political arm, known simply as Americans for Prosperity, gave its Blogger of the Year Award to an activist who had called President Obama “cokehead in chief.”

 

[Evo]

The divide I am seeing in this nation is frightening. There was a political commercial on tv tonight calling for the end of Obamacare and to elect the person that will oppose Obama's reforms.

You see the comments by people that for reasons unknown manage to access the internet and post their comments to yahoo articles blaming Obama for everything. These are the people that believe he's not American, and say he's Muslim and has ties to terrorism.

I understand that racism is still big in America. When you combine the white supremicst movement with the Evangelical movement, you've got quite a mix.

 

[mheslep]

Does anyone else feel truly frightened when they read stuff like this from people that are trying to hold positions of power?

Perspective? This psychopath Lee just attempts to blow up the Discovery building because there are too many 'filthy humans'; we have more than one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold" want to be poster here on PF stating that the guy was right. Given that, I'm reserving my "truly frightened" states for something other than a loopy Mormon who quit drugs and alcohol, holds what are effectively large church picnics, and is running for no political office.

 

[turbo]

I understand that racism is still big in America. When you combine the white supremicst movement with the Evangelical movement, you've got quite a mix.

The scary thing about that mix is that the nuts are quite motivated and they WILL go vote in the mid-terms. That's bad news for Democrats and possibly for Republicans facing Tea Party candidates running as independents in the mid-terms.

 

[mheslep]

They are Libertarians headed by the Koch billionaire brothers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html

The Billionaires Bankrolling the Tea Party

Right,by Frank Rich, a disgusting sack.

 

[turbo]

Right,by Frank Rich, a disgusting sack.

So the story is not true? The Koch brothers are NOT bankrolling the Tea Party? Ad-hom attacks on messengers do not invalidate their stories.

 

[mheslep]

So the story is not true? The Koch brothers are NOT bankrolling the Tea Party? Ad-hom attacks on messengers do not invalidate their stories.

It means I choose not to consider the assertions of an Op Ed piece by this particular agenda columnist, which is otherwise not a reliable PF source. Besides, the title is nonsensical. There's no way to 'bankroll' an amorphous group like the Tea Party. There's a DNC, and an RNC both with audited bank accounts. There is no 'TPNC, there's no elected leader of the TPNC, there's certainly no TPNC bank account.

 

[turbo]

How about the New Yorker?
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer

How about NPR?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129425186

I know, all lying liberals demonizing a couple of really nice old guys.

 

[mheslep]

How about the New Yorker?
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer

How about it?

How about NPR?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129425186

That's not another news source, its a repeat of the Mayer story in the New Yorker.

 

[edward]

It means I choose not to consider the assertions of an Op Ed piece by this particular agenda columnist, which is otherwise not a reliable PF source. Besides, the title is nonsensical. There's no way to 'bankroll' an amorphous group like the Tea Party. There's a DNC, and an RNC both with audited bank accounts. There is no 'TPNC, there's no elected leader of the TPNC, there's certainly no TPNC bank account.

I just grabbed the first link that came up. There are many more. With all of the blogs we don't get the reliable sources that we used to find easily. The link has a hot link to the New Yorker and others.

Try this one.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/senate/who-is-americans-for-prosperit.html

We have; Mormon Glen beck, the Tea Party, mainstream Republicans, radical right Christian Republicans and, the Libertarian [Americans for Prosperity ] all boiling in one pot and stirred by the Koch brothers.

The local attack ads paid for by Americans for Prosperity have already eliminated one REPUBICAN candidate for the congress. The winner of the primary wears a republican hat with a Libertarian label in it.

The news today that Americans for Prosperity (AFP) is launching $500,000 worth of new TV ads in Arizona targeting Democratic Reps. Ann Kilpatrick, Harry Mitchell and Gabrielle Giffords is the latest indication that conservative group will be a major player in the November midterm elections.

The radical attack ads against the incumbent Democrat ,Giffords, have already begun. At the bottom of the ad is: Paid for by Americans for Prosperity.

 

[edward]

How about it?

That's not another news source, its a repeat of the Mayer story in the New Yorker.

The New Yorker did an investigative report. Do you really think that they just made up a buch of crap about a couple of billionaires?

 

[mheslep]

I just grabbed the first link that came up. There are many more. With all of the blogs we don't get the reliable sources that we used to find easily. The link has a hot link to the New Yorker and others.

Try this one.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/senate/who-is-americans-for-prosperit.html

Which does not mention or use the phrase Tea Party. It does say, however,

Democrats, of course, have their own outside groups that also refuse to reveal their donor lists.

 

[mheslep]

The New Yorker did an investigative report. Do you really think that they just made up a buch of crap about a couple of billionaires?

I didn't say that it did. Instead of making an argument through negatives, what do you say is going on based on the New Yorker article? You could start by acknowledging it does not make the hyperbolic assertion "Billionaires Bankrolling the Tea Party"

 

[mugaliens]

Does anyone else feel truly frightened when they read stuff like this from people that are trying to hold positions of power?

I do! I'm not so much "frightened" as "concerned" that it's even an issue. While I do believe we cannot be governed appropriately without a moral basis upon which to ground the law upon which we're governed, I'm not so sure religion is the best basis upon which to base the morals.

Rather, I view it as an evolutionary byproduct which served to stabilize psychosocial dynamics by codification after the creation of writing.

Although the fact we're still here is logically fallacious evidence as to its mechanism, vestigial remnants abound throughout most of humanity.

Do I believe it's real? I dunno, but I think I'm better for it. Perhaps that's an evolutionary marker, as well.

I'd love to base the rule of law upon pure logic, but as that seems to escape most people, including those in the legal profession, I'm not sure we as a species are ready for that step.

I do think some of us try, although as a whole we're many generations away from such an evolutionary step.

 

[mheslep]

The divide I am seeing in this nation is frightening...These are the people that believe he's not American, and say he's Muslim and has ties to terrorism.

They're have been many documented waves of irrational beliefs held by the public. What's the particular concern about this one?

 

[turbo]

They're have been many documented waves of irrational beliefs held by the public. What's the particular concern about this one?

Perhaps the realization that the right-wing "media" are pushing the beliefs, AND the realization that there are groups of uneducated people willing to embrace them. When you have the senate minority leader saying on Meet the Press that Obama says that he is a Christian and that he will take him at his word, we have hit a new low. Even McCain didn't take that tack during the campaign.

 

[Evo]

They're have been many documented waves of irrational beliefs held by the public. What's the particular concern about this one?

Oh, crazy people like this for starters.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/tue-august-17-2010-dick-armey

Also, if you can listen to someone like Beck and not be horrified, I seriously doubt that there is anything anyone could say to make you see what is so scary to those of us that are.

I do not think these people are rational, and I don't think they could make rational decisions for the good of the people. I think they would make decisions based on their misguided beliefs regardless of the detriment to the general population. This is purely my opinion.

 

[mheslep]

For all you know. Did you not know that Beck is a Mormon?

No I did not. Or at least I'd forgotten? <shrug> Didn't care enough to find out/remember. Thanks though for the blurb quote while we are on the subject.

 

[mheslep]

Oh, crazy people like this for starters.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/tue-august-17-2010-dick-armey

Also, if you can listen to someone like Beck and not be horrified, I seriously doubt that there is anything anyone could say to make you see what is so scary to those of us that are.

I do not think these people are rational, and I don't think they could make rational decisions for the good of the people. I think they would make decisions based on their misguided beliefs regardless of the detriment to the general population. This is purely my opinion.

I asked about about your comment on what's generally called 'birthers', not Beck:

The divide I am seeing in this nation is frightening...These are the people that believe he's not American, and say he's Muslim and has ties to terrorism.

Yes I agree those birther beliefs are irrational. Again, why do you find them so out of the ordinary* as to be frightening, in an historical context? Without some rationale, all you have there is a dogma, ala: " if you don't believe as I do, without explanation, then nothing can be done..."

*Reminder: As late as 2007, more than http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/bush_administration/22_believe_bush_knew_about_9_11_attacks_in_advance" of Democrats believed former Pres. Bush had a hand in 911, i.e. Truthers.

 

[Evo]

I asked about about your comment on what's generally called 'birthers', not Beck:
Yes I agree those birther beliefs are irrational. Again, why do you find them so out of the ordinary* as to be frightening, in an historical context? Without some rationale, all you have there is a dogma, ala: " if you don't believe as I do, without explanation, then nothing can be done..."

*Reminder: As late as 2007, more than http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/bush_administration/22_believe_bush_knew_about_9_11_attacks_in_advance" of Democrats believed former Pres. Bush had a hand in 911, i.e. Truthers.

No, you didn't ask me about my opinion on "birthers". I wasn't talking about "birthers" specifically, I was talking in general about paranoid, crazy people that fear Obama. You apparently selected one item out of my entire post, but you didn't even state that until now.