The Math You Don't Learn is Harder Still

[arildno]

Since you were actually lying about what you said, as shown by my re-quote, you do not deserve to be adressed with a grown-up's language.

 

[Gza]

ORIGINAL QUOTE:
"I can assure you, there is far more to math than some dumb, memorizable math algorithms such as long division."

EXPLANATION:
"I don't have any sort of disdain for long division, and meant it was "dumb" in the way its taught as some sort of memorizeable math trick"

At no point did I "lie" or go back on what I said. Is there some sort of language barrier here that's keeping you from understanding what I'm saying? Or do you just need some improvement in reading comprehension?

 

[arildno]

Comparison:

"I can assure you, there is far more to math than some DUMB, memorizable math algorithms SUCH AS long division."

"I don't have any sort of disdain for long division"

In the first, you show disdain for long division, in the second one, you contradict that.

 

[Evo]

Ok, stop the fighting.

 

[Gza]

Comparison:

"I can assure you, there is far more to math than some DUMB, memorizable math algorithms SUCH AS long division."

"I don't have any sort of disdain for long division"

In the first, you show disdain for long division, in the second one, you contradict that.

Well, you can make me say pretty much anything you want me to by taking a quote out of context; the FULL quote:

I don't have any sort of disdain for long division and meant it was "dumb" in the way its taught as some sort of memorizeable math trick


I qualified my use of "dumb" to be different than its usual negative connotation. Any more clarifications before we can have any semblance of intelligent communication?

 

[arildno]

Yes. Anyone else with a shred of respect for others would have said something along the lines:"Ah sorry, what I meant to say was...". That's not what you did.

Furthermore, you are ridiculing Orthodontist as a chemist (goodness knows why), and to my first reply (which wasn't at all disrespectful towards you), you ridicule it by insinuating I wash my clothes by hand, and cook my food on a fire.

 

[Gza]

Yes. Anyone else with a shred of respect for others would have said something along the lines:"Ah sorry, what I meant to say was...". That's not what you did.

Furthermore, you are ridiculing Orthodontist as a chemist (goodness knows why), and to my first reply (which wasn't at all disrespectful towards you), you ridicule it by insinuating I wash my clothes by hand, and cook my food on a fire.

Agreed, the comment to orthodontist was over the line, and I apologize to him. As for your first reply:

" What's your problem? First of all, long division isn't "dumb", secondly, if you actually claim to understand the concept of division, you'd be able to develop that algorithm in about two minute's time."

First you assume I have some sort of problem. Then you posit that i don't "understand the concept of division." As far as the -washing clothes by hand and cooking on a fire- comment, I meant it as an analogy, and by no means any sort of personal attack.

 

[arildno]

Agreed, the comment to orthodontist was over the line, and I apologize to him. As for your first reply:

" What's your problem? First of all, long division isn't "dumb", secondly, if you actually claim to understand the concept of division, you'd be able to develop that algorithm in about two minute's time."

First you assume I have some sort of problem.

Yes.

Then you posit that i don't "understand the concept of division."

No. What stands there quite simply express that anyone understanding maths (including you, I happen to presume) wouldn't need to REMEMBER long division, since we are able to develop it from scratch, if need ever be.

And I still cannot see whether a 20-30 year old remembers a formula is relevant to the OP's question/theme whether long division should be taught or not in school.

Besides, you owe OP an apology by your rendering of the quote as coming with the ridiculous message that long division is the end-all of mathematical prowess. You know damn well that was not implied in the original post.

 

[physics girl phd]

Ok, stop the fighting.

Well put! arildno and Gza... Agree to disagree... 0rthodontist and I had a good time debating, defining our positions WITH NICE LANGUAGE, and then moving on. I think we probably respect each other (right 0-guy? and I DO like chemists!). I don't think we EVER insulted each other...

So if you guys don't stop we'll send you to the corner to hold hands for an hour! ( worse punishment my parents ever inflicted on my siblings and I).

 

[0rthodontist]

Well put! arildno and Gza... Agree to disagree... 0rthodontist and I had a good time debating, defining our positions WITH NICE LANGUAGE, and then moving on. I think we probably respect each other (right 0-guy? and I DO like chemists!). I don't think we EVER insulted each other...

So if you guys don't stop we'll send you to the corner to hold hands for an hour! ( worse punishment my parents ever inflicted on my siblings and I).

Of course! I have a lot of respect for anyone educated in a technical subject.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Long division is wrong anyway.

 

[Quaoar]

Long division is wrong anyway.

Wrong? What do you mean?

 

[mathwonk]

i can't find anything to respond to here. what gives?

 

[Office_Shredder]

i can't find anything to respond to here. what gives?

On the other hand, there have been no argumentative posts for 8 hours.

It's kind of like in the simpsons, when Prof. Frink stands up and shouts "Pi is exactly three!"

 

[arildno]

Well put! arildno and Gza... Agree to disagree... 0rthodontist and I had a good time debating, defining our positions WITH NICE LANGUAGE, and then moving on. I think we probably respect each other (right 0-guy? and I DO like chemists!). I don't think we EVER insulted each other...

No, you didn't. But Gza insulted several, without any prior provocation. I simply critisized him for doing that.

 

[Alkatran]

So the current math is based on the idea that when kids come up with their own algorithms, they do better in math?

Guess which kids come up with their own algorithms regardless of how math is taught. What?! The ones that are good at math?!

 

[arildno]

So the current math is based on the idea that when kids come up with their own algorithms, they do better in math?

Guess which kids come up with their own algorithms regardless of how math is taught. What?! The ones that are good at math?!

Guess&check has been elevated to the deepest method available, since the teachers are unsure of other methods, in particular of those based on systematic thinking.

 

[Office_Shredder]

So the current math is based on the idea that when kids come up with their own algorithms, they do better in math?

Guess which kids come up with their own algorithms regardless of how math is taught. What?! The ones that are good at math?!

It's interesting, my 8th grade math teacher said something similiar. One of the kids who had to stay after for extra help asked how some kids could answer so many more questions, and get them right more often, in the same amount of time (I wasn't staying after for help then, I was busy scribbling on the board in my misguided attempt at eliminating a variable from an algebraic equation Those were the days). She said that the reason why is that the kids who get higher grades do the problems in a way that's easier and faster, because they know how to answer the problem better.

 

[twisting_edge]

Guess which kids come up with their own algorithms regardless of how math is taught. What?! The ones that are good at math?!

If you read that article, it's probably the kids who are sent out for private math tutoring.

That has evidently become pretty common, although there aren't many hard numbers given in the article.

 

[Gza]

No, you didn't. But Gza insulted several, without any prior provocation. I simply critisized him for doing that.

Arildno the saint . Thank you for playing "post police", but I'm sure that most posters here are intelligent enough to defend themselves in a debate. And as far as insults go, read back a few pages and see who was the one delivering the largest number of -not so subtle- insults (Although I see you've deleted a few involving a certain 4-letter word) .

 

[twisting_edge]

I forwarded that same article I linked to start this thread to one of my brothers. His response was interesting.

Yep. That's me. Well, actually, I'm the sorry b_st_rd who is left to pick up the pieces. I teach physics to 11th and 12 graders, and many students cannot solve for t in the equation d=(1/2)at*t. (One-half a t squared). Just ridiculous. I teach a class in "conceptual physics" where there is literally almost no math, and what little there is (see example above) will kill my students. I've faced the same stupid dilemma over and over: bring everything to a complete stop, teach the math for a few days, then start over, or just simply drop material from the curriculum. I've done it both ways. I was going to try to teach the Pythagorean theorem to 11TH GRADERS. Holy sh_t, man, these are not even kids really. Luckily, I chose to drop it. I teach vectors in one dimension to those kids, which is to say that I do not teach them vectors at all. I've used the 3-4-5 right triangle, and 45-45-90 to keep the math simple. They can swallow that, but only after relentless drilling, etc. F_cking joke. The title of the class is "college physics". The idea that anyone who can't handle the Pythagorean theorem at the age of seventeen is going to go anywhere near a college campus in the capacity of anything other than a food-service or maintenance worker is not just laughably optimistic, but pathologically delusional. Oh well.

Thanks for the article. I haven't had a chance to read the other thing you sent me yet. I've just been too busy trying to translate the science of physics from the language of mathematics to the patois of today's youth.

 

[turbo]

I forwarded that same article I linked to start this thread to one of my brothers. His response was interesting.

That is really pathetic and disheartening. I blame some of this on the the resistance to "tracking" in Junior High and High Schools. Back in the '60's I was in the "College" track (and had been assigned lots of extra work in grade school to keep me from being a bored behavioral problem). The HS math teacher created and taught an advanced math class just so 3 other seniors and myself could keep learning when we had absorbed all the available math curriculum. Recently, I have watched my nieces and nephews float through HS, essentially unchallenged, earning A's because they are graded with a pool of other kids who just don't measure up. "All men are created equal" might be a fine ideal, politically, but every child should be challenged to their limits because children all have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Evo]

The title of the class is "college physics". The idea that anyone who can't handle the Pythagorean theorem at the age of seventeen is going to go anywhere near a college campus in the capacity of anything other than a food-service or maintenance worker is not just laughably optimistic, but pathologically delusional. Oh well.

If they're learning grade school math in high scool, maybe they can catch up to high school level in college.

It's really patheitic. On this forum we see yuoung people that are definitely above the curve when it comes to learning, I sometimes forget about the "average" kids shlepping along out there. The child of Evo tutored kids in English which is called "communication arts" when she was in high school. She was appalled.

 

[Knavish]

I forwarded that same article I linked to start this thread to one of my brothers. His response was interesting.

I graduated from high school about a year and a half ago, and let me be the first to say that this is complete bull****. My high school, if anything, was below average, and virtually all sophomores (and a large number of freshman) could do simple algebra and knew of the Pythagorean theorem. Your brother either (a) teaches at an extremely lousy high school or (b) is exaggerating.

The problem with our school system is not that students aren't learning these methods. It's that they aren't learning the reasons for them. For example, nearly all students know of the Pythagorean theorem, but most don't know why it is.

 

[Evo]

I graduated from high school about a year and a half ago, and let me be the first to say that this is complete bull****. My high school, if anything, was below average, and virtually all sophomores (and a large number of freshman) could do simple algebra and knew of the Pythagorean theorem. Your brother either (a) teaches at an extremely lousy high school or (b) is exaggerating.

The problem with our school system is not that students aren't learning these methods. It's that they aren't learning the reasons for them. For example, nearly all students know of the Pythagorean theorem, but most don't know why it is.

Knavish, you'd be surprised. I'm only guessing where T_E's brother teaches, but I'm inclined to say it's a very high income area, which means most students go to private schools, and if he teaches at a public school, no one (the majority of the populace) there cares about what happens because their kids don't attend.

 

[Moonbear]

I forwarded that same article I linked to start this thread to one of my brothers. His response was interesting.

That's really sad, especially since it's the same attitude my high school physics teacher had, and was what completely turned me off to physics. Has he taken a look at what math courses the students are in? In my high school, trig was a co-requisite for physics, and calculus not required (we took physics in 11th grade and calculus in 12th), yet the physics teacher taught us with the assumption we all knew calculus (some students on the fastest math track did...we had two honors tracks for math, which to this day I couldn't explain the reasoning behind how they assigned us into them...I guess that was enough to convince him the rest of us were just dummies).

Perhaps he would serve the students better to talk to the school administration and get the course pre-requisites clarified so that students who haven't been taught calculus yet aren't trying to learn it in their physics course. There's no excuse for lack of communication among teachers to ensure that the prerequisites for junior and senior level classes are indeed being met in their earlier classes. What chance do those students have when their teacher looks down on them so badly?

 

[twisting_edge]

I graduated from high school about a year and a half ago, and let me be the first to say that this is complete bull****.

Yes, I am sure you know far more about my brother's school than he does, esp. since you were not even a student there, let alone a teacher.

I shall e-mail him your commentary and demand he correct his opinions forthwith. The fellow is clearly useless.

 

[FrogPad]

What's with all the hostility in this thread?

 

[Quaoar]

What's with all the hostility in this thread?

I would tell you the percentage of hostility in this thread, but no one taught me long-division so I can't divide 101 into 62...

 

[FrogPad]

I would tell you the percentage of hostility in this thread, but no one taught me long-division so I can't divide 101 into 62...

hehe nice

 

[Knavish]

Yes, I am sure you know far more about my brother's school than he does, esp. since you were not even a student there, let alone a teacher.

I shall e-mail him your commentary and demand he correct his opinions forthwith. The fellow is clearly useless.

Needless to say, I was discounting the implicit broader message--namely, that such is the state of all students in the country. To believe this is nothing more than an act of arrogance.

As it is, it's just a squabble over personal experiences. We need statistics.

Still, I think I made a valid point, and I'd rather not see it die just yet. What's your take on it?

p.s. Whatever it was in my last post that prompted the condescension, well, sorry; it was unintended.

 

[Gza]

hehe nice

NO IT WASN'T...NOW SHUDDUP


also, I think this thread is about 3 posts away from getting locked.

 

[BobG]

NO IT WASN'T...NOW SHUDDUP





also, I think this thread is about 3 posts away from getting locked.

Good choice. That would certainly be a prime candidate for locking.

 

[twisting_edge]

He doesn't teach in an inner city school, although I admit I don't know exactly where he does teach. It's somewhere up around Boston, so it's tough to blame this one on the religious right. They tend to be a bit "fundamentalist" in their educational preferences in any case: they generally want the schools to teach reading, writing and arithmetic, and not a great deal else.

It's not just math US students are falling way behind in, it's all the hard sciences. But the point he makes is pretty obvious: if you gut the math curriculum, the rest of the sciences are going to suffer correspondingly. I've never heard anyone argue it is the evolutionists who are dragging down US science scores, but if anyone ever tried that argument, it just got refuted by the NYT article and the rather obvious connection back to math.

However, if you look on the bright side of that, the science scores might pick back up if you fix the math. It might be just the one problem, not a sector-wide difficulty.

p.s. Whatever it was in my last post that prompted the condescension, well, sorry; it was unintended.

It was this line:

let me be the first to say that this is complete bull****

 

[arildno]

He doesn't teach in an inner city school, although I admit I don't know exactly where he does teach. It's somewhere up around Boston, so it's tough to blame this one on the religious right. They tend to be a bit "fundamentalist" in their educational preferences in any case: they generally want the schools to teach reading, writing and arithmetic, and not a great deal else.

It's not just math US students are falling way behind in, it's all the hard sciences. But the point he makes is pretty obvious: if you gut the math curriculum, the rest of the sciences are going to suffer correspondingly. I've never heard anyone argue it is the evolutionists who are dragging down US science scores, but if anyone ever tried that argument, it just got refuted by the NYT article and the rather obvious connection back to math.

However, if you look on the bright side of that, the science scores might pick back up if you fix the math. It might be just the one problem, not a sector-wide difficulty.


It was this line:

Take heart. The situation is even worse here in Norway.