The philosophy behind the Fat Tax

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm curious if you think that's a good thing for a bad thing.

Drinking is bad, smoking is bad, seatbelts and helmets are good. I think we all agree on these points. If there was a practical way to tax or penalize everyone for all choices made that affects others, then I could see how this might be fair, but obviously we would be creating a monster to try to do so. Though with technology today this becomes more and more practical, which is what most concerns me. In fact I'll even go out on a limb and predict that one day our toilets will all be monitored. Already we have appliances on the internet that call for repair or service, order groceries, call the fire or police, or in the case of Porsche, call Germany for fine tuning. Toilets on the internet are only a chip away. And what better way to catch people doing whatever we are concerned about today.

In short I think we're creating a monster, and the heart of the monster is the logic behind seatbelt and helmet laws, taxes on tobacco, alcohol, gambling, non-critical drug testing, fat consumption, and whatever comes next. And I have no doubt that there will be a next, and a next, and a next... Ultimately I see this as the beginning of the end of liberty.

Welcome to my nightmare.

 

[Skyhunter]

Food Subsidies

This country has a cheap food policy, ie it subsidizes the food industry through agriculture and water subsidies. The meat and dairy industries benefit the most from these subsidies.

Instead of taxing the end product, why not end the agricultural subsidies?

When that happens meat will be so expensive that people will learn to eat more plants. Without the subsidies smaller local farms will become more competitive, since transportation is not subsidized and is increasing in cost.

 

[Hurkyl]

Without the subsidies smaller local farms will become more competitive

I am under the exact opposite impression -- small-time farmers already struggle to keep afloat.

 

[Pengwuino]

Small farmers will absolutely go under if they are forced to deal with even smaller margins. I'm absolutely amazed you could think otherwise living so close to the san joaquin valley.

 

[Hurkyl]

When that happens meat will be so expensive that people will learn to eat more plants.

And subsequently suffer a protein shortage, because they're used to a diet where they don't have to spend considerable effort in ensuring they have all the nutrients they need.

Though, I suppose that's fine, if you're willing to sacrifice a few generations until people become accustomed to it.



And what about the people who simply don't like plants? I have disliked almost every vegetable and fruit I've tried... and when something I don't like goes into my mouth, I am often unable to swallow it before it comes out the way it went in. Presumably I would eventually acclimate to it, but I would be in a terrible state of health until that point.

 

[Skyhunter]

I am under the exact opposite impression -- small-time farmers already struggle to keep afloat.

The majority of the subsidies go to the larger corporate farms, allowing them to squeeze out the smaller independent farms. I get majority of my food from local farmers, who do not have the benefit of government subsidies. I pay a premium, but it is all local and organic. If the corporate farms have to raise their prices, the local farmers market becomes more attractive to the average consumer.

If you have to pay $20.00 lb for hamburger and $15.00 for a package of hot dogs, the garden burgers start looking better and better.

 

[Skyhunter]

And subsequently suffer a protein shortage, because they're used to a diet where they don't have to spend considerable effort in ensuring they have all the nutrients they need.

Though, I suppose that's fine, if you're willing to sacrifice a few generations until people become accustomed to it.

The only people who have ever suffered from a protein shortage are emaciated and have bloated bellies. It is nearly impossible to not get enough protein unless you are starving.

And what about the people who simply don't like plants? I have disliked almost every vegetable and fruit I've tried... and when something I don't like goes into my mouth, I am often unable to swallow it before it comes out the way it went in. Presumably I would eventually acclimate to it, but I would be in a terrible state of health until that point.

They would pay the true cost of producing the meat.

 

[Hurkyl]

The only people who have ever suffered from a protein shortage are emaciated and have bloated bellies. It is nearly impossible to not get enough protein unless you are starving.

Then why am I told that getting enough (of each essential) protein is one of the major challenges of a vegan diet?

If you have to pay $20.00 lb for hamburger and $15.00 for a package of hot dogs, the garden burgers start looking better and better.

No, they don't. Making one alternative worse doesn't make the other better. You sound like you think I'm joking, but I'm not. Some things come back out before I can manage to swallow... and believe me, I do try. It's inconvenient to have to spit something out, not to mention embarassing with a group of people. Other things I can manage to down a few bites before I become incapable of swallowing any more... which is annoying because I would rather be able to eat the thing I don't like than buy another overpriced lunch from the work cafeteria.

 

[Mk]

I pay a premium, but it is all local and organic.

Ah, so you have succumbed to the organic food scam. http://www.junkscience.com/foxnews/fn122900.htm

If you have to pay $20.00 lb for hamburger and $15.00 for a package of hot dogs, the garden burgers start looking better and better.

Uhm, I don't have to. I'm ready to try a garden burger if I'm offered, but I am not going to buy a box. An acquaintance said he would bring me a hot fresh garden burger, and I was looking forward to it, but he never did.

Drinking is bad, smoking is bad, seatbelts and helmets are good.

Also, if I may add, something the "health conscious" often say is how toxic or poisonous some foods or activities (or lack of) are. Something to be noted is the dose, always. Natural radiation doses from space and everything around you are so little, it doesn't matter. Getting an xray—negligible amounts of ionizing radiation. Drinking a single sip of beer or inhaling a single (or a whole pack, why not?) puff of smoke from a cigarette is not bad. Some say that each puff is killing cells, or destroying your lungs. It is, but it doesn't matter, because it is not enough that your body cannot fix it. If you fall and bruise your arm, it is ok! Your body will fix itself! The problem is when you go overboard and bang your arm over and over again.

 

[Mk]

Every day on Planet Earth, 25,000 people die of starvation. Given this startling reality, one might be forgiven for wondering why the most controversial issue on the agenda of last week's World Health Organization meeting was the size of our love handles. Yet the venerable global health body practically begged for this fight. WHO's anti-obesity strategy includes a call for "fat taxes" on hot dogs, candy, and the like. The Bush Administration won the right to amend WHO's plan after charging that it neglects "the notion of personal responsibility." Predictably, defenders of the fat tax cried foul.

This is one of those heinously stupid things I try my best to stay out of. It is like the whole "remove 'under god' from the pledged of allegiance" thing all over again. It is BARELY worth talking about, but you can understand both sides well... and is just stupid.

If I ate Mcdonalds for non-stop a month, there isn't a 'chance' I will go fat; I will most definately become fat.

No, there is a chance. Your lifestyle is integral to the equation, as well as how much you ate.

Calories are Calories, it does not matter where they come from. Fats and oils have a higher Caloric density than carbohydrates or proteins, but if you ate oranges, celery, and spinach, in place of all your food and drink, in the day, that would make you gain weight.

One of my friends is the island 5K champion, he gets first place at almost every 5K or 10K. He eats McDonald's all the time, but he runs for hours everyday. Look at almost any male movie star (or female), for instance Nick Lache, that guy on the show with Jessica Simpson called "Newlyweds" they eat McDonald's almost everyday! The guy is ripped, and Jessica is 110 pounds! He exercises so much, and burns so many Calories, that the Calories from fat, carbs, and protein alike, go to building muscle.

Shaquile O'Neil also exercise a lot. However he almost exclusively eats salads. Man that guy is a monster. Maybe I need to eat salad.

 

[StarkRavingMad]

In short I think we're creating a monster, and the heart of the monster is the logic behind seatbelt and helmet laws, taxes on tobacco, alcohol, gambling, non-critical drug testing, fat consumption, and whatever comes next. And I have no doubt that there will be a next, and a next, and a next... Ultimately I see this as the beginning of the end of liberty.

Well said. It always scares me when people go along with this kind of thinking. It's ironic that the first people to freak out when polititians use their power are the very people who consistently vote to give the government more power in the first place.

 

[Pengwuino]

bye bye thread...

 

[loseyourname]

When that happens meat will be so expensive that people will learn to eat more plants. Without the subsidies smaller local farms will become more competitive, since transportation is not subsidized and is increasing in cost.

Are you suggesting that what has changed in the last twenty years to increase the obesity levels in this country is the consumption of meat? I eat meat with virtually every meal I have and am nowhere near being obese.

 

[Smurf]

Wow this thread is really long, you people talk a lot about fat people.

 

[Mk]

Are you suggesting that what has changed in the last twenty years to increase the obesity levels in this country is the consumption of meat? I eat meat with virtually every meal I have and am nowhere near being obese.

NO, he is not. He is saying meat is more fattening than plants.

 

[russ_watters]

Again, I'm behind, but...

And you have said nothing to suggest that this isn't a slippery slope.

I gave a clear criterion for deciding what is and isn't allowed and gave an example of one item on each side of the line. I don't know how it can be made any clearer. Are you saying that under the criterion I used, fatty foods could still be taxed?

And what of those who pay their medical bills? Should they be exempt?

Huh? The whole point is that since some people don't have insurance/pay their bills, everyone must pick up the slack.

How much fat may be consumed? At some point it clearly is a problem. Why should I pay [through my insurance] for some guy who sits at Wal Mart eating hot dogs?

If you can think of a different/better litmus test than the one I used, by all means tell me...

The cause of what? With all the rhetoric I can hardly tell what your point is.

There is so little rhetoric (I count three soft uses, but they are all connected to logical points) in that post that the point could not be more clear. What I think modern liberalism is causing should be obvious: the concurrent shirking of personal responsibility and requirement that the government pick up the slack.

 

[russ_watters]

Does it do enough damage so that the effects become noticable on our public health care system? Would 2 groups of equals show any distinct increase in tobacco related illness if one had a cigarette once every week or 2?

Since the cigarette tax is per unit, that's a self-regulating issue, Penguino - people who smoke less have fewer health problems and therefore pay less tax. It works out just fine and is completely fair to both smokers and non-smokers.

 

[russ_watters]

However, IIRC, about 30% of regular smokers will never have any significant problems before something else gets them.

I have a deal with a buddy of mine that takes care of that: as soon as he gets diagnosed with cancer (and he will), he's going to commit suicide.

 

[russ_watters]

In short I think we're creating a monster, and the heart of the monster is the logic behind seatbelt and helmet laws, taxes on tobacco, alcohol, gambling, non-critical drug testing, fat consumption, and whatever comes next. And I have no doubt that there will be a next, and a next, and a next... Ultimately I see this as the beginning of the end of liberty.

Welcome to my nightmare. [emphasis added]

edit: found your logic...

The logic you used in your OP was based on taxing "all poor choices that can lead to costs to society." What constitutes a "poor choice" isn't defined, but may be redundant anyway - do you mean that anything that leads to a cost to society is a poor choice?

In any case, you asked me what Constitutionality has to do with this: the answer is that I don't think the logic you used would be considered a reasonable justification for a law by the USSC. Ie, your fear is of something that won't happen because it isn't Constitutional.

 

[Moonbear]

Ah, so you have succumbed to the organic food scam. http://www.junkscience.com/foxnews/fn122900.htm

Until a few weeks ago, my attitude on organic food is that it's certainly not cheap to produce in any massive way to feed the entire population, but if small pockets of consumers were willing to pay the extra money for it, and a small industry was sustained because of it, no big deal, it's their money and their food. However, after we received a group of organically raised sheep on our farm, my attitude has changed dramatically. I now think it's just plain cruel, and unsafe. We received the sheep because we're not an organic facility (not by a longshot), the sheep had been attacked by coyotes (horribly...I actually had nightmares the first night after seeing them), and needed medical treatment. They were on the organic farm several days before someone finally insisted that if they wanted the sheep to live, they needed to be brought in for veterinary treatment. As long as they were on the organic farm, they could not receive antibiotics, you would not believe the parasite load in these animals because they can't use drugs that are commonly used to prevent parasite infections (I don't know about you, but I want my food to be parasite-free, and consider that an improvement in modern agriculture), and even the pain medications were not permitted. The only way to humanely treat those animals was to remove them from the organic farm and not treat them as organic, or just euthanize them on the spot. I wonder how the reality of organic farming would sit with all those who think it's a more healthy source of food, and better for the animals and environment, etc. I was not even aware of how extreme it gets, and I was absolutely nauseated by the idea.

This has nothing much to do with the topic at hand, but it was a very shocking wake-up call to me. I didn't realize they couldn't even use drugs to de-worm the animals. I guess it does get at the issue of the challenge of determining what is a healthy food or unhealthy food to decide which would get taxed if someone were to start taxing food based on its health-value.

 

[Pengwuino]

Since the cigarette tax is per unit, that's a self-regulating issue, Penguino - people who smoke less have fewer health problems and therefore pay less tax. It works out just fine and is completely fair to both smokers and non-smokers.

So that non-smoker who probably won't put any extra strain on the healthcare system still has to pay for other people's uncontrolled behavior? And what if we expand this? What happens when the good, healthy, nice guy with complete self-discipline is paying hundreds of dollars in taxes on every little thing he does because everything is getting taxes? Should he really be paying because other people don't have any discipline? This can all get out of control very quickly...

 

[Pengwuino]

Until a few weeks ago, my attitude on organic food is that it's certainly not cheap to produce in any massive way to feed the entire population, but if small pockets of consumers were willing to pay the extra money for it, and a small industry was sustained because of it, no big deal, it's their money and their food. However, after we received a group of organically raised sheep on our farm, my attitude has changed dramatically. I now think it's just plain cruel, and unsafe. We received the sheep because we're not an organic facility (not by a longshot), the sheep had been attacked by coyotes (horribly...I actually had nightmares the first night after seeing them), and needed medical treatment. They were on the organic farm several days before someone finally insisted that if they wanted the sheep to live, they needed to be brought in for veterinary treatment. As long as they were on the organic farm, they could not receive antibiotics, you would not believe the parasite load in these animals because they can't use drugs that are commonly used to prevent parasite infections (I don't know about you, but I want my food to be parasite-free, and consider that an improvement in modern agriculture), and even the pain medications were not permitted. The only way to humanely treat those animals was to remove them from the organic farm and not treat them as organic, or just euthanize them on the spot. I wonder how the reality of organic farming would sit with all those who think it's a more healthy source of food, and better for the animals and environment, etc. I was not even aware of how extreme it gets, and I was absolutely nauseated by the idea.

Where do you work if i may ask?

 

[Bladibla]

This is one of those heinously stupid things I try my best to stay out of. It is like the whole "remove 'under god' from the pledged of allegiance" thing all over again. It is BARELY worth talking about, but you can understand both sides well... and is just stupid.


No, there is a chance. Your lifestyle is integral to the equation, as well as how much you ate.

Calories are Calories, it does not matter where they come from. Fats and oils have a higher Caloric density than carbohydrates or proteins, but if you ate oranges, celery, and spinach, in place of all your food and drink, in the day, that would make you gain weight.

One of my friends is the island 5K champion, he gets first place at almost every 5K or 10K. He eats McDonald's all the time, but he runs for hours everyday. Look at almost any male movie star (or female), for instance Nick Lache, that guy on the show with Jessica Simpson called "Newlyweds" they eat McDonald's almost everyday! The guy is ripped, and Jessica is 110 pounds! He exercises so much, and burns so many Calories, that the Calories from fat, carbs, and protein alike, go to building muscle.

Shaquile O'Neil also exercise a lot. However he almost exclusively eats salads. Man that guy is a monster. Maybe I need to eat salad.

Yes, And that's just one person who *happens* to actually do exercise! There wouldn't be a point for the existence of this thread if everyone was like that is there?

And what about this ''chance that you will get fat?'' I have already mentioned whether a person eats Mcdonalds (or any fatty resteraunt) for a month, year etc without consideration to outside factors, as is the case for the actual obese people we are so concerned about my point still stands! Nevermind if there is a 'chance' you will become fat and not 'will' become fat, if there is physical proof that so many people are eating without consideration to exercise etc as, is, oh, the existence of this thread, then the original point mentioned isn't relevant.

 

[Bladibla]

So that non-smoker who probably won't put any extra strain on the healthcare system still has to pay for other people's uncontrolled behavior? And what if we expand this? What happens when the good, healthy, nice guy with complete self-discipline is paying hundreds of dollars in taxes on every little thing he does because everything is getting taxes? Should he really be paying because other people don't have any discipline? This can all get out of control very quickly...

This 'out of hand' problem can be easily solved by allowing to have a license to smoke. Then the only people elligible to such tax would be people who are actually recorded to be smokers.

 

[Pengwuino]

This 'out of hand' problem can be easily solved by allowing to have a license to smoke. Then the only people elligible to such tax would be people who are actually recorded to be smokers.

Then there goes the whole purpose of this tax. You create another system of government employees to keep up with peoples smoking habbits? And where is that money probably going to come from? The same tax its made to enforce... thus, no money for health care. As I see it, the meaning of this tax isn't to discourage people from smoking, its to make up for all the expense put on our health care system with the added incentive that it might decrease smoking rates. Of course, as far as the license goes, obviously it will be a recurring license because people will hvae to be taken off the taxing process when they stop smoking so there's no way of keeping the process cheap.

Then of course in the spirit of the thread, where does it end? A license to eat fast food? A license to ski? A licenes to see R-rated movies?

 

[Skyhunter]

Then why am I told that getting enough (of each essential) protein is one of the major challenges of a vegan diet?

Because that is the myth perpetuated by the meat and dairy industry.

If one consumes processed food I suppose that getting all essential amino acids might be a problem. If one eats whole plant foods, protein is not an issue.

Calorie for calorie there is more protein in romaine lettuce than in prime rib.

Here is a good resource for information. Scroll down the page and there is a protein chart.

http://www.soystache.com/plant.htm

 

[Evo]

Until a few weeks ago, my attitude on organic food is that it's certainly not cheap to produce in any massive way to feed the entire population, but if small pockets of consumers were willing to pay the extra money for it, and a small industry was sustained because of it, no big deal, it's their money and their food. However, after we received a group of organically raised sheep on our farm, my attitude has changed dramatically. I now think it's just plain cruel, and unsafe. We received the sheep because we're not an organic facility (not by a longshot), the sheep had been attacked by coyotes (horribly...I actually had nightmares the first night after seeing them), and needed medical treatment. They were on the organic farm several days before someone finally insisted that if they wanted the sheep to live, they needed to be brought in for veterinary treatment. As long as they were on the organic farm, they could not receive antibiotics, you would not believe the parasite load in these animals because they can't use drugs that are commonly used to prevent parasite infections (I don't know about you, but I want my food to be parasite-free, and consider that an improvement in modern agriculture), and even the pain medications were not permitted. The only way to humanely treat those animals was to remove them from the organic farm and not treat them as organic, or just euthanize them on the spot. I wonder how the reality of organic farming would sit with all those who think it's a more healthy source of food, and better for the animals and environment, etc. I was not even aware of how extreme it gets, and I was absolutely nauseated by the idea.

This has nothing much to do with the topic at hand, but it was a very shocking wake-up call to me. I didn't realize they couldn't even use drugs to de-worm the animals. I guess it does get at the issue of the challenge of determining what is a healthy food or unhealthy food to decide which would get taxed if someone were to start taxing food based on its health-value.

Can't that be considered animal abuse? Those places need to be shut down.

I wonder if they also refuse medication to their children? Or are they so intent on profit that they just don't care about the animals?

 

[Skyhunter]

Modern liberalism is the cause of this.

You have it backwards Russ. Modern capitalism is the cause of this.

The driving force behind our food supply is profit motive. If the motive were to provide a healthy nutritious diet Americans would be much healthier.

When the primary goal is profit, all other considerations, by definition are of a lesser priority.

 

[Averagesupernova]

You have it backwards Russ. Modern capitalism is the cause of this.

The driving force behind our food supply is profit motive. If the motive were to provide a healthy nutritious diet Americans would be much healthier.

When the primary goal is profit, all other considerations, by definition are of a lesser priority.

I would have to agree with this.
-
How I REALLY feel about the whole healthcare costs issue would open up a whole new can of worms so I'm going to refrain from saying very much. BUT, I will say that this fat tax is typical of any tax plan to come out of a republican administration. The tax will hit those hardest who can afford it least. Those who NEED a lot of calories are typically laborers. They typically aren't paid as much as some desk jockey.
-
A note on farm subsidies: If they were eliminated large farms would simply get out of the business. They are there for profit and profit only. Small farmers are more adaptable than large corporate farms. Penguino, you may not know it, but I'm afraid you don't know the ag industry well enough to make claims like that.

 

[Pengwuino]

Penguino, you may not know it, but I'm afraid you don't know the ag industry well enough to make claims like that.

Considering half my family has worked on/owns farms... uhhh...

But let me guess, you're an analyst for the UFW?

Oh and by the way, taxes like these are a staple to the other side of the fence.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Ok. Start talking.

What is an LDP?
What is PCP?
What is sealing price?
When is the deadline to collect an LDP?
What products can you collect an LDP on?
What is the defintion of basis?
How are yields proven?
What is the average cost of fertilizer and how is it priced?
Can you give me an example of how much cash rent is in your specific examples and what is the typical break-even yield on a corn crop?
Other than owning the land, what are the typical arrangements for renting it?
Shall I go on?

 

[Pengwuino]

I don't actually live on a farm. What website did you grab those questions off of?

 

[Averagesupernova]

I rest my case. No web site. I'm quite familiar with them. You never know who is on the internet. And what does 'living on a farm' have to do with it? It's not a requirement to understand the ag industry.

 

[Pengwuino]

I rest my case. No web site. I'm quite familiar with them. You never know who is on the internet. And what does 'living on a farm' have to do with it? It's not a requirement to understand the ag industry.

Yes but you made the assumption that just because my family is in the industry, that i would know the technicals.

 

[Averagesupernova]

You implied that you know quite a bit. You said it yourself.