The U.S. is no angel or don't believe the hype.

[amp]

Alias, Russ(heres more) you have a romantic image of the US. America is beautiful, its just that we elected some people with different agendas.

This is a partial listing of sites that discuss U.S. atrocities, there are a lot more. Some may be taken with a grain of salt others are more substantive.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/461355.stm

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jul2002/afgh-j22.shtml

http://www.indiaexpress.com/news/world/20010926-0.html

http://www.zmag.org/forums/chomcambodforum.htm

THIS SITE HAS QUITE A BIT.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/122300-101.htm

US USES GAS ON NON-COMBATANTS
http://www.refuseandresist.org/resist_this/072498timesindiaed.html

http://www.humanrightsonline.net/USatrocities.html

http://www.state-terrorism.com/

An excerpt from this site:
http://www.sabac.co.yu/e-zine/social_politics/txt/english/chomsky2.html
MB: How do you reconcile that view with the fact that, according to polls at least, the majority of Americans would support an escalation of the war, for example, through the deployment of NATO ground troops?
NC: You have to keep in mind what these people are hearing. The public is getting its marching orders from Washington. And these orders are to disregard all other atrocities, even ones much worse than Kosovo, especially in places where the US is involved. Focus your attention only on this disaster and pretend to yourself that the crisis is all about one evil man who is carrying out genocide. This is what we are being told by our media day and night. It's effective. Most people accept the marching orders. Then they say we've got to do something, like send ground troops.
http://forests.org/recent/1995/indousmi.htm

http://www.jim.com/ChomskyReply.htm

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/PIL109A.html

http://mondediplo.com/2000/04/15vietnam

http://www.geocities.com/milamola/

http://www.colombiapeace.org/documents_2002_9.html

 

[Zero]

Hmmmmm...people don't want the truth when a comforting lie is available.

 

[amp]

I won't mention names,

but that's so true Zero.

 

[kyleb]

wow amp, thank you for putting together a very good list of many of the reasons i have for not supporting this war.

 

[Alias]

I read quite a bit of the info at those links and found quite a bit of comforting lies. The blade cuts both ways.

 

[amp]

Alias,

Are you realizing that about U.S. propaganda (to its own citizens) or do you accept it as gospel? Oh, and that's why I gave a list from differing areas of the world for the various looks at this particular focus.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Alias
I read quite a bit of the info at those links and found quite a bit of comforting lies. The blade cuts both ways.

Hmmm...like where? I know 30% of everything Bush says is a lie, and if you look at Rush Limbaugh, it is closer to 90%.

 

[Njorl]

Lie in first link - "The campaigners have always contended that the events of July 1950 were three days of unprovoked carnage."

The carnage was provoked by N. Korean soldiers posing as civilians. It is always described as "alleged" in the news stories about this, but it is something that N. Korea did then, and continued to do as late as the 1990's. N. Korean soldiers routinely infiltrate S. Korea and go on killing sprees.

Njorl

 

[BoulderHead]

Anyone remember Colin Powell when he tried to cover up Mai Lai?

 

[Njorl]

Lie in second link - "But many Afghans, particularly those of the Pashtun majority, who have had to endure 10 months of arbitrary US military operations, are beginning to voice their opposition to the American colonial-style occupation of Afghanistan."

Many Afghans may resent our presence, but it is not "colonial-style" in any sense. Are we going to live there? Are we going to exploit the vast wealth? Any attempt to exploit Afghan wealth would cost more than it nets. There is no colonial-style occupation.

Njorl

 

[amp]

Njorl, I'm sure we all respect your opinions...

can you give me some links or other evidence(were you there?).

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by Alias
I read quite a bit of the info at those links and found quite a bit of comforting lies. The blade cuts both ways.

Everyone seems to have an agenda, no true?

.....
Q: What kind of investigation did you make?

A: In a very limited schedule, our team waged investigation activities around Pyongyang City.

We obtained testimony from many persons--researchers, victims and witnesses of the chemical and biological warfare. I was most impressed with the story that in Korea there was a custom of presenting shellfish to others wrapping it in straw, and that by making use of this custom, the U.S. army spread germ-contaminated shellfish, causing many Korean people who ate it to die.

I also visited the germ warfare section in the Museum of Victory in Korean War, and I was able to have access to documents and materials, which were not to open to the public.

What surprised me most during my visit to the DPRK was an 18-minute documentary film, which was filmed in 1952 by the staff of the National Film Studio of the DPRK.

The documentary film titled, “U.S. forces’ atrocity of germ warfare,” showed flies and spiders, which were scattered by U.S. airplanes, crawling around on the snow, together with captive pilots testifying to the act of germ warfare. The film also showed the activities for prevention of epidemics and the activities of an international investigation team, which was formed by eight countries including the UK and France, to investigate the suspicion of U.S.-committed germ warfare.

This time, I confirmed again the fact that the U.S. committed chemical and biological warfare in Korea. Through some documents, I had known about the germ warfare committed by the U.S. forces during the Korean War but had no sufficiently convincing materials to persuade people to believe the fact.
....
Taken from;
http://www.korea-np.co.jp/pk/184th_issue/2002092816.htm

The sneaky, underhanded, fiendish ways in which government operates doesn't really change too much. I can't stand any of the bastards on any side;
The Trail of Tears, The handing out of infected blankets to American Indians for genocidal purposes. The US is very much guilty of atrocities but government lovers world wide root for their side like it was a football game.

 

[Njorl]

Discussion of the event, with eyewitness mention of the infiltration technique:
http://www.kimsoft.com/1997/nogun8.htm


Latest N. Korean violent infiltration:
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9609/21/south.korea/

Njorl

 

[Njorl]

Boulderhead,

That is from a North Korean government propaganda site.

Please, there are lots of genuine mistakes made by America that you can find from reputable sources. By using that site you just ruin your reputation.

Njorl

 

[amp]

Interesting Njorl, I can start to accept some of your

rebuttal. Still if this is going on or was going on, then why are so many S. Koreans protesting and openly urging reunification with N. Korea? I saw much of this on a special about the N, Korean regime and Kim's atrocities commited on his own peoples.(Slavery, murder, ect.)

 

[Ben-CS]

Would an angel's war cry be "Give 'em Hell" (World War 2)?

During the United States Civil War, the North adopted a policy of "total war"; everything that could be destroyed was destroyed, leaving a literal path of destruction cutting across the South. If the United States was willing to do that to itself, what do you think it is willing to do to another nation?

 

[iansmith]

Amp, I think you should be more critical of your source especially if it starts with www.geocities.com. Some of your links only expresse the writer opinions and the facts only suport their opinion. they do not show the whole picture.

As alias said their is conforting lies in those links for those that are opossed to USA foreing policy.

Ian

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by Njorl
Boulderhead,

That is from a North Korean government propaganda site.

Please, there are lots of genuine mistakes made by America that you can find from reputable sources. By using that site you just ruin your reputation.

Njorl

What reputation? haha
It follows from my having said that "Everyone seems to have an agenda, no true?"
I have no more reason to believe what their football team says than anyone else’s, but to dismiss atrocities by one's own 'team' as simply being 'genuine mistakes' is a mistake in an of itself.

 

[amp]

Ian,

If that is the case then it is more so in light of the propaganda the American people have been subjected to. Manufacturing consent is what PR is and does in relation to politics.

 

[Mulder]

To be honest, from the first link I clicked on (the NK civilian shootings), I expected something from a little more recent than 1953. Many of the soldiers that it involved are probably dead now, so what's the point in bringing up something 50 years old, which is well and truly and in the past, and bears no relevance to the World of today.

 

[amp]

Mulder, its just that

I didn't want to go all the way back to the Native Americans when I started this thread.

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by Mulder
To be honest, from the first link I clicked on (the NK civilian shootings), I expected something from a little more recent than 1953. Many of the soldiers that it involved are probably dead now, so what's the point in bringing up something 50 years old, which is well and truly and in the past, and bears no relevance to the World of today.

But Mulder, do you recall what Hitler said about the Armenian Genocide? It was something like;

"Who today remembers the Armenians?"
-Adolf Hitler, at the outset of the Holocaust.

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by amp
I didn't want to go all the way back to the Native Americans when I started this thread.

OK, I'll see if I can shut up for awhile, but there is a long running history of what people do each other that ought to be remembered...especially when it concerns your own side. Otherwise people tend to be left with illusions...

 

[amp]

Boulderhead,

Your response is apt, especially here in this thread. I was really talking to Mulder(X-files?) he may not have heard the saying 'those that forget history are bound to repeat it.'

Njorl posted:

...Many Afghans may resent our presence, but it is not "colonial-style" in any sense. Are we going to live there? ...

Any attempt to exploit Afghan wealth would cost more than it nets.

Really? We may not live there but Halburton among other multinational companies will certainly exploit the wealth. Ripley's.

 

[russ_watters]

Are you realizing that about U.S. propaganda (to its own citizens) or do you accept it as gospel?

Must I remind you of the 1st amendment? How can you possibly consider US news to be propaganda and not the state run news of the countries you cite? Thats just absurd. When was the last time a reporter was arrested for speaking out against the government in the US?

Amp, those sites are very, very weak. Besides much of it being flat out lies, they are heavily biased and rumor driven.

Again, I must state explicitly that the US is *NOT* perfect, however the weakness of efforts to discredit her only strengthens my positive opinions of the US.

 

[amp]

Russ,

because all the networks are owned and controlled by multinational corporations. And I've seen the proof of what Noam Chomsky wrote in his book 'The Manufacture of Consent'

 

[russ_watters]

because all the networks are owned and controlled by multinational corporations.

And that means what? Are you saying the corporations ARE the government? Which corporation is in control or do they have their own corporate republic? Don't tell me you're a believer in one of those corporations-own-the-government conspiracy theories...

It is a fact that media outlets (all of them) from time to time say negative things about the US government. WHY would the government allow that? And since the government clearly does allow that (or at least doesn't act to stop it) how can our government possibly be using the media as a propaganda machine? Its just absurd.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by amp
because all the networks are owned and controlled by multinational corporations. And I've seen the proof of what Noam Chomsky wrote in his book 'The Manufacture of Consent'

Pleeeaaase, before you go any further spouting chomsky check his facts, read the criticisms of him and his works.
you could start here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=criticism+of+noam+chomsky&spell=1

 

[amp]

Kat,

Chomsky has addressed many criticisms here:

http://www.jim.com/ChomskyReply.htm

But aside from Chomsky this is a good book to read:



Russ, follow the money trail-and answer this question, Who has the most to gain by placing their people into positions of power?

 

[russ_watters]

Amp, your entire theses depends on having ONE entity in control and no dissention. Clearly that is not the case. Your thesis is flawed and this conspiracy theory is bunk.

 

[amp]

Russ,

How so? I'm aware that there are a few in control of the current world pathos.

 

[kyleb]

well actually there is quite a few and they all have their own little plans, but they also tend go along with the flow when it suits their needs. its basically the same thing that has been going on for the majority of recorded history; granted they do tend to fudge the records when they think that is the best plan.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by amp
Chomsky has addressed many criticisms here:

http://www.jim.com/ChomskyReply.htm

But aside from Chomsky this is a good book to read:



Russ, follow the money trail-and answer this question, Who has the most to gain by placing their people into positions of power?

I'm not a chomsky hater amp, I'm a chomsky worshipper disdainer .
I'm also with Brad Delong on this one:
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/archives/000155.html "Never get involved in a land war in Asia." "Never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line." And now, "Never get involved in an argument over Noam Chomsky."

The Chomsky defenders--and there seem to be a surprisingly large number of them--seem to form a kind of cult. Arguing with them seems to be a lot like trying to teach Plato's Republic to a pig: it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig.
Of course he then goes on and argues about Chomsky...

I don't neccesarily have a problem with everything Chomsky says, although I believe he does mislead and conveniently leaves out those facts that go against his premises. People often treat him as a historian, when he's not..he's better treated as an activist with a focus that despite what he claims does come off as very "anti-american" and "anti-semetic" TO ME.
What do we know of Arabic, French, German, and Russia's ulterior motives? capabilities? influences? I prefer to have a more balanced world view..


I have in mind far more than just what Bush might mean for a Dole voter. I keep in mind the record of France in Africa, the record of Russia, the record of China, the hypothetical results of what they propose, what the USA, UK and all the other idiotic countries are proposing and implementing, each in different degrees and the hypothetical results of their actions, and very very much the record of Saddam and the hypothesis of what will mean for Iraqis and the middle east if Saddam remains, and the total revelation of all hypothesis together with past records and habits of all participants.

Human rights present in times of open conflict terrible moral dilemnas, of categories of rights, of working with hypothesis that might be accurate or not and the results incide gravely on humans. They are not solved by anti-americanism as an only option.

 

[russ_watters]

How so? I'm aware that there are a few in control of the current world pathos.

A real propaganda campaign (not to mention control of a government) requires coordination and tight centralized control. If the corporations controlled the government, it would require that ALL of the major corporations work together. Thats preposterous (I'm wearing out the word "absurd"). A major news network can't even wield the centralized control required for a propaganda campaign or government control(with the exception of CNN, which has only one station), much less all the networks (and other corporations) doing it together. Similar, the US government in general is too decentralized and the first amendment too powerful for the government to run an effective propaganda campaign.

Corporate control of the government of the US is limited to contributions and lobbying. Certainly this is more control than they should have, but its only influence on their little area of interest (hence the term "special interest group"). Microsoft for example, doesn't give a rats ass about funding for fixing potholes in Philadelphia.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by russ_watters
A real propaganda campaign (not to mention control of a government) requires coordination and tight centralized control.

well if it is so tight that it is clearly visable that is nothing but a real inefective propaganda campaign. however, there is more than one way to skin a cat.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,889818,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40057-2003Mar27.html
http://www.fair.org/international/iraq.html