The US has the best health care in the world?

[Count Iblis]

...why would anyone ever buy medical insurance until after they're sick or injured? Then they can buy "insurance" at the discounted (subsidized) rate after they're sick/injured.

And that's why in most Western countries health insurance is compulsory. If foreign tourists from third world countries visit a Western Euopean country, they won't even be let in unless they have proof that they have adequate health insurance.

 

[WhoWee]

Assuming you mean that government would cover the cost of the pre-existing conditions, why would anyone ever buy medical insurance until after they're sick or injured? Then they can buy "insurance" at the discounted (subsidized) rate after they're sick/injured.

Of course, using the term "insurance" to refer to something that covers something pre-existing is a logical contradiction, so it might be more accurate to use the phrase "health care plan".

Obviously the cost of "insurance" for someone that's not already sick/injured is a fraction of the cost of a "health care plan" for someone already sick/injured. Are you suggesting that government cover the difference? If so, health "insurance" would no longer exist, because nobody would buy it.

If government covered the cost of car "insurance" paying for "pre-existing" damage, there would be no reason to buy car insurance until after the damage. (Actually this is exactly what some people have done, anyway).

I posted earlier in greater detail.

However, what I'm addressing is the need to create high risk insurance pools co-funded/guaranteed by the Government - similar in concept to what is done after an emergency is declared after a national disaster. Insurance companies pay their claims and the Government helps the under-insured and uninsured.

 

[Al68]

And that's why in most Western countries health insurance is compulsory.

Yeah, I know. And that's why the proposed bill in the U.S. makes it compulsory (or charges a stiff tax penalty). And it makes it compulsory to buy a (much more expensive) health care plan that covers all pre-existing conditions, even if they have none. And it forces people to buy insurance to cover the kinds of things a lot of people would never voluntarily buy insurance for. Most Americans don't realize what this bill contains, or its true purpose. Obviously, if the purpose were to just help poor people get insurance, they would just propose expanding Medicare.

And if the goal were just to make insurance cheaper, they would just propose establishing a public insurance company to compete with the private ones.

They aren't even considering those two options, yet they claim those are their purposes.

 

[Al68]

I posted earlier in greater detail.

However, what I'm addressing is the need to create high risk insurance pools co-funded/guaranteed by the Government - similar in concept to what is done after an emergency is declared after a national disaster. Insurance companies pay their claims and the Government helps the under-insured and uninsured.

Well, if all you meant was the equivalent of expanding Medicaid eligibility, it would have been simpler just to say so.

I must have misinterpreted your post, my bad.

 

[WhoWee]

Well, if all you meant was the equivalent of expanding Medicaid eligibility, it would have been simpler just to say so.

I must have misinterpreted your post, my bad.

That's not exactly what I'm saying. The Government doesn't have to carry the bulk of the burden.

 

[drankin]

I found this article today. According to Dr Ann Doig, "the incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association", the current system is "unsustainable".
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539943,00.html"

Of course it's from fox news. So we can discount what the Dr says outright.

 

[WhoWee]

I watched a panel style discussion with Kent Conrad over the weekend.

I think he's going to be a key player in shaping the final healthcare legislation. Here's a link to his website.

http://conrad.senate.gov/issues/healthcare.cfm

 

[Count Iblis]

I found this article today. According to Dr Ann Doig, "the incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association", the current system is "unsustainable".
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539943,00.html"

Of course it's from fox news. So we can discount what the Dr says outright.

The question is if this is a systematic problem in all of the Government regulated health care systems that exist in the Western World.

 

[drankin]

The question is if this is a systematic problem in all of the Government regulated health care systems that exist in the Western World.

I agree. But, if Dr Ann Doig is correct, the current Canadian model will not work for us.

 

[BoomBoom]

I finally found a answer on who pays for those emergency room calls by people without insurance. What apparently happens is that the hospital raises its rates on everyone. In other words it is a business cost which is expensed over its insured customers. The charity that Evo was talking about is all of us.

Correct, in addition, I believe we all are also paying for everyone's insurance that is provided by employers to employees in just about every product you buy and the (reduced) wages you earn. If anyone thinks these high healthcare costs aren't already passed on to all of us, then I suggest they are naive.

 

[turbo]

Correct, in addition, I believe we all are also paying for everyone's insurance that is provided by employers to employees in just about every product you buy and the (reduced) wages you earn. If anyone thinks these high healthcare costs aren't already passed on to all of us, then I suggest they are naive.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Where do I sent the Cuban Cigar?Health insurance is not a zero-sum game. It is a system through which many US citizens are denied health care, yet are forced to pay for other peoples' coverage. Probably the worst offenses are against people who have to buy private coverage, and whose hospital bills and charges for doctor's visits are jacked up by the business-model that pushes the costs of the uninsured onto the insured.

 

[wildman]

Good point, kind of. But the issue is whether to greatly expand socialist policy, not whether socialist policy currently exists at all.

More like debating about whether or not to drastically increase the number of cars in our cities, to use your analogy.

I don't see any expansion of socialist medicine? Could you explain? Under the proposed plan, the people who have private insurance will keep it so no expansion there (or am I mistaken?) and the other people are simply moved from a very expensive model (emergency room visits) to a (hopefully) less expensive model (early visits to the doctor's office) of socialized medicine. So socialism would not increase at all. Or am I missing something?

 

[Al68]

I don't see any expansion of socialist medicine? Could you explain? Under the proposed plan, the people who have private insurance will keep it so no expansion there (or am I mistaken?) and the other people are simply moved from a very expensive model (emergency room visits) to a (hopefully) less expensive model (early visits to the doctor's office) of socialized medicine. So socialism would not increase at all. Or am I missing something?

Yes, you're missing a lot. The current proposal outlaws private insurance that is not part of the new "system" and meets its requirements (most normal private insurance. There is a grandfather clause, and employer based plans are legal for 5 years, but that's just relevant in the short term. The claim that an individual can just keep what he has is misleading, to say the least.

And anyone who doesn't buy the "new and improved" type of overly comprehensive health coverage will be charged a stiff income tax penalty.

The advocates have talked a lot about the goals of the proposal, but very little about the substance of it.

 

[mheslep]

I don't see any expansion of socialist medicine? Could you explain? Under the proposed plan, the people who have private insurance will keep it so no expansion there (or am I mistaken?) and the other people are simply moved from a very expensive model (emergency room visits) to a (hopefully) less expensive model (early visits to the doctor's office) of socialized medicine. So socialism would not increase at all. Or am I missing something?

Under the draft House plan there will certainly be several million people leaving private insurance and joining the government public option. There is, however, substantial wonkish disagreement about how many millions. On the low side, the CBO [1] says some 6 million people would leave private, with 12 million total on the public option. On the high side the Lewin group [2] says 88 million will leave private, with ~100 million in total on the public option. The CBO report actually addresses the Lewin report. The President is technically right when he says the current proposal doesn't legally force people off private, but it appears it will set up a situation where its unaffordable for many of them or their employer to maintain private coverage.

If we assumed that workers at larger firms would be allowed to purchase coverage
through the exchanges, our estimate of the number of enrollees involved would
undoubtedly be greater than 6 million, but we have not estimated the magnitude. Analysts
at the Lewin Group recently estimated that if all employers were given access to the
insurance exchanges, more than 100 million people would end up enrolling in the public
plan.4 For several reasons, we anticipate that our estimate of the number of enrollees in
the public plan would be substantially smaller than the Lewin Group’s, even if we
assumed that all employers would have that option.

[1] http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10400/07-26-InfoOnTriCommProposal.pdf
[2] http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/upload/HouseBillHeritageRevised.pdf

 

[Al68]

The President is technically right when he says the current proposal doesn't legally force people off private, but it appears it will set up a situation where its unaffordable for many of them or their employer to maintain private coverage.

Except for some grandfathered private policies, which will only stay grandfathered under certain conditions, and a 5 year grace period on employer based policies, which are both irrelevant in the long term, the proposal will outlaw all private policies that aren't in the "system", meeting the comprehensive requirements.

Sure he's telling the truth (barely and misleadingly) that a lot of people can keep their current policies temporarily, but long term, the only way they can keep them is if they are changed to meet the requirements for the new "system", which effectively means it's a different policy.

Whether we use the words "government takeover" or not is a matter of semantics, but despite claims to the contrary, the people that Democrats claim are being "mislead" into thinking it's a takeover still grossly underestimate the increase in government power over health insurance that is actually in the bill.

What would Dems do if everyone read the bill? Never mind, they know that won't happen.

 

[WheelsRCool]

I agree that the current health system definitely needs reform, but I think the Obama administration is going about completely wrong, for reasons stated in previous posts.

 

[WhoWee]

Except for some grandfathered private policies, which will only stay grandfathered under certain conditions, and a 5 year grace period on employer based policies, which are both irrelevant in the long term, the proposal will outlaw all private policies that aren't in the "system", meeting the comprehensive requirements.

Sure he's telling the truth (barely and misleadingly) that a lot of people can keep their current policies temporarily, but long term, the only way they can keep them is if they are changed to meet the requirements for the new "system", which effectively means it's a different policy.

Whether we use the words "government takeover" or not is a matter of semantics, but despite claims to the contrary, the people that Democrats claim are being "mislead" into thinking it's a takeover still grossly underestimate the increase in government power over health insurance that is actually in the bill.

What would Dems do if everyone read the bill? Never mind, they know that won't happen.

Don't act surprised, every time we elect a lawyer - we get lawyer-speak.

Step back and look at the process and it will begin to make sense.

Think of the election campaign (say anything to get elected - like no more lobbists, save or creat x jobs, and televised healthcare discussions), the run up to the stimulus (no time to read it - shovel ready projects), now healthcare (keep your insurance/doctor) as the "opening statements" - a rosey (one-sided) picture is painted and a general strategy is outlined - the lawyer preps his audience but doesn't present any evidence.

Once the trial begins or the legislation is passed (in this discussion) the lawyer works through the details and counter-arguments. In a courtroom, this is where the lawyer (or his team - Pelosi, Frank, Reid and assoc.) begins to face opposition - after he's had an opportunity to present his case. Ultimately, the lawyer makes a deal - a plea bargain.

Obama is trained to think like a lawyer. He selects his words carefully, keeps his eye on the prize, and looks for possible areas of compromise to make a deal.

There is no reason for him to become mired in the details of healthcare. His associates in the House and Senate are presenting arguments and at the close of the "trial", he'll step in and make a deal.

 

[Count Iblis]

I agree that the current health system definitely needs reform, but I think the Obama administration is going about completely wrong, for reasons stated in previous posts.

Hmmmm, any reform will have to include the government stepping in in one way or another. The problem is that some people a priori assume that any government intervention is a pretext to implement "bad socialist policies". So, these people can always raise the same type of objections against any proposed health care system that would work.

 

[WhoWee]

Hmmmm, any reform will have to include the government stepping in in one way or another. The problem is that some people a priori assume that any government intervention is a pretext to implement "bad socialist policies". So, these people can always raise the same type of objections against any proposed health care system that would work.

You can't even call this a debate until someone presents a list of specific problems, objectives, and solutions.

Starting with 1,000 pages of legislation that nobody understands tells me the "reform" is not real.

 

[Astronuc]

The Truth About Record-Setting U.S. Life Expectancy
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090819/sc_livescience/thetruthaboutrecordsettinguslifeexpectancy

Life expectancy in the United States rose to an all-time high, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said today. But that's only half the story.

The country is behind about 30 others on this measure.

Though the United States has by far the highest level of health care spending per capita in the world, we have one of the lowest life expectancies among developed nations - lower than Italy, Spain and Cuba and just a smidgeon ahead of Chile, Costa Rica and Slovenia, according to the United Nations. China does almost as well as we do. Japan tops the list at 83 years.

Interesting.

 

[BoomBoom]

You can't even call this a debate until someone presents a list of specific problems, objectives, and solutions.

Starting with 1,000 pages of legislation that nobody understands tells me the "reform" is not real.

Maybe they should put it in the form of a pop-up book?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You can't even call this a debate until someone presents a list of specific problems, objectives, and solutions.

Starting with 1,000 pages of legislation that nobody understands tells me the "reform" is not real.

The sausage making has been going on in Congress for many weeks, but unless you happen to make a living debating and negotiating in congressional committees, you would really have no way to know what is being argued. As of right now there is no single plan. There are about five plans. Apparently you haven't been paying attention.

Specific problems:

1). Lifetime limits on coverage that are exhausted in the event of a serious illness
2). Dropped coverage when illness strikes
3). Denial of coverage due to preexisting conditions
4). 50 million people who can't afford health insurance
5). Increasing costs that will certainly overwhelm the country as the baby boomers retire and the cost of medicine skyrockets
6). We pay far more per capita for medical care than do than other nations, for less in terms of results.

 

[turbo]

Ivan's #1 is a nasty one. The rates that hospitals and large practices keep rising - when is the last time your insurance company informed you that they had raised your life-time cap to keep current with these increased costs? Get out your policy and find the lifetime cap (it's buried in there somewhere) and then consider how soon you might hit it if a serious infection caused your kidneys to fail. How many years would the insurance company pay for dialysis to keep you alive while you wait for a donor? Would they pay the screenings or for the surgeries for you and the donor if you were already near your cap? There are the REAL "death panels".

 

[mheslep]

The Truth About Record-Setting U.S. Life Expectancy
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090819/sc_livescience/thetruthaboutrecordsettinguslifeexpectancy Interesting.

Many of those life expectancy factors have little to do with medical practice or insurance.
http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=psc_working_papers

...a country could still have poor measured health if personal health care practices were unusually deleterious. This is not a remote possibility in the United States, which had the highest level of cigarette consumption per capita in the developed world over a 50-year period ending in the mid-80’s (Forey et al. 2002). Smoking in early life has left an imprint on mortality patterns that remains visible as cohorts age (Preston and Wang 2006; Haldorsen and Grimsrud 1999). One recent study estimated that, if deaths attributable to smoking were eliminated, the ranking of US men in life expectancy at age 50 among 20 OECD countries would improve from 14th to 9th, while US women would move from 18th to 7th (Preston, Glei, and Wilmoth 2009). Recent trends in obesity are also more adverse in the United States than in other developed countries (OECD 2008; Cutler, Glaeser, and Shapiro 2003).

If the deaths from homicides and accidents and the like are also corrected for the US moves to or near the highest in life expectancy.

 

[WhoWee]

Maybe they should put it in the form of a pop-up book?

Are you suggesting they have approached the problem in a methodical way? Or perhaps you mean Barney and co will have an easier time with a pop-up illustration?

 

[mheslep]

...
4). 50 million people who can't afford health insurance

More like 10 million

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Specific problems:

1). Lifetime limits on coverage that are exhausted in the event of a serious illness
2). Dropped coverage when illness strikes
3). Denial of coverage due to preexisting conditions
4). 50 million people who can't afford health insurance
5). Increasing costs that will certainly overwhelm the country as the baby boomers retire and the cost of medicine skyrockets
6). We pay far more per capita for medical care than do than other nations, for less in terms of results.

Objectives:
1). Eliminate lifetime caps
2). Eliminate dropped coverage when illness strikes
3). Eliminate the denial of coverage due to preexisting conditions
4). Provide a means to affordably insure 50 million more people
5). Reduce the cost of medical care
6). Increase the efficiency of the medical care systems

Some options considered in no specific order:
1). Government regulation of the terms of insurance
2). Create competition for the private insurance industry with a government option for those without insurance - the universal health care option
3). Create a single-payer system with the government acting as the central agent for insurance.
*Note that This is not government run health care. It is government run health care insurance. Calling this government run health care is like saying that Farmers Insurance runs the local hospital now.
4). Form co-ops to create competition for private insurance
5). Through part of the existing government stimulus programs, invest in state-of-the-art information technology to streamline everything from the tracking of drug interactions, to the ordering of studies, to payment, for the entire healthcare system. Consider for example, it is claimed that as much as 50%-80% of the cost associated with running a doctor's office can be attributed to paperwork and insurance regulations. Also, many of the errors made in hospitals that result in death or injury are preventable though information technology.
6). Here is one of the latetest suggestions being considered: Implement a program like that instituted by Gov Romney, in Massachusetts.

 

[WhoWee]

The sausage making has been going on in Congress for many weeks, but unless you happen to make a living debating and negotiating in congressional committees, you would really have no way to know what is being argued. As of right now there is no single plan. There are about five plans. Apparently you haven't been paying attention.

Specific problems:

1). Lifetime limits on coverage that are exhausted in the event of a serious illness
2). Dropped coverage when illness strikes
3). Denial of coverage due to preexisting conditions
4). 50 million people who can't afford health insurance
5). Increasing costs that will certainly overwhelm the country as the baby boomers retire and the cost of medicine skyrockets
6). We pay far more per capita for medical care than do than other nations, for less in terms of results.

What is your "specific" source - an Obama town hall meeting?

Problems, objectives, and solutions - I see a few general talking points on your list - no specifics.

1.) Some private policies have $1.0 million limits and some have $7 million.
2.) Can you please explain this - under what specific circumstances does this happen?
3.) Denial of coverage is what happens when the person (under your #2 example) loses coverage and re-applies. This is a major problem but a general category of pre-existing doesn't begin to describe the overall situation.
4.) Are any of these 50 million people illegal immigrants, people who choose to self-insure, people already on public assistance, people already accounted for in #2 and #3, are any of these people on the extended COBRA plan and just developed a problem that will now be considered pre-existing - or are these people not in any of these categories that can't afford coverage? Again, a statement of "50 million uninsured" does not fully describe the actual problem - it is a talking point.
5.) Obama says reform will save money, even though the CBO doesn't agree - again, another talking point with no factual support.
6.) As Astronuc pointed out above. Could the reason be that our lifestyles have something to do with the data - WE ARE A FAT NATION - diabetes, high blood pressure, etc. Junk food and lack of exercise need to be factored in and then re-evaluate the data.

I have been paying attention - and nobody thus far has presented a comprehensive plan that itemizes all of the problems, objectives, and solutions. Writing a fast 1,000 page Bill and ramming it through won't solve anything - do you trust your life to Barney, Nancy, and Harry? This Bill needs to be understood. Obama promised a "line by line" review of anything that he signs - did HE read the stimulus Bill? Will he read and understand this Bill?

 

[WhoWee]

Objectives:
1). Eliminate lifetime caps
2). Eliminate dropped coverage when illness strikes
3). Eliminate the denial of coverage due to preexisting conditions
4). Provide a means to affordably insure 50 million more people
5). Reduce the cost of medical care
6). Increase the efficiency of the medical care systems

Some options considered in no specific order:
1). Government regulation of the terms of insurance
2). Create competition for the private insurance industry with a government option for those without insurance - the universal health care option
3). Create a single-payer system with the government acting as the central agent for insurance.
*Note that This is not government run health care. It is government run health care insurance. Calling this government run health care is like saying that Farmers Insurance runs the local hospital now.
4). Form co-ops to create competition for private insurance
5). Through part of the existing government stimulus programs, invest in state-of-the-art information technology to streamline everything from the tracking of drug interactions, to the ordering of studies, to payment, for the entire healthcare system. Consider for example, it is claimed that as much as 50%-80% of the cost associated with running a doctor's office can be attributed to paperwork and insurance regulations. Also, many of the errors made in hospitals that result in death or injury are preventable though information technology.
6). Here is one of the latetest suggestions being considered: Implement a program like that instituted by Gov Romney, in Massachusetts.

Again, what is your source? What politician has listed these things?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Again, what is your source? What politician has listed these things?

For one, Obama has talked about some of it; esp wrt universal care vs single-payer system. HE did just a few days ago in his press conference, and he did again this morning on Conservative radio.

Where do you get your news? What do you think people have been talking about for the last several months? There are I believe five active committees in Congress. What do you think they are debating?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

During his campaign for the White House, President-elect Barack Obama proposed lowering health care costs and helping the 45 million uninsured Americans. Now he faces the tough task of implementing those reforms during a likely recession...

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/health/uninsured/index.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/health/uninsured/map_flash.html

Also to be considered, the underinsured.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Here is one version discussed in the House. A vote was not taken before the summer recess, so the issue is being discussed in town halls all around the country, every day. Perhaps the problem is that nuts like Sarah Palin have tried their best to misdirect the discussion with crackpot claims.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The Palin effect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8

 

[drankin]

The Truth About Record-Setting U.S. Life Expectancy
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090819/sc_livescience/thetruthaboutrecordsettinguslifeexpectancy


Interesting.

I don't think we are looking at all the factors in life expectancy. How does the American diet compare to those of other developed countries? The Japanese, for example, have a very healthy diet (variety of fish and rice products) in comparison to Americans (hamburgers/french fries/bacon). In my experience with people in the UK, American meal serving sizes are much larger. A lifetime of that has to have an impact on life expectancy.

 

[cristo]

The Palin effect

Comparing Obama to Hitler.. genius Methinks a little history and/or politics needs to be taught to people asking such questions. It's all well and good defending first amendment rights (which I agree with, by the way) but no one takes such claims seriously, do they? I liked that representative's response.