Things you consider academic dishonesty , but people do all the time?

[ideasrule]

Why?

I know this isn't addressed to me, but a test should measure the student's understanding of the course material. Period. If the student has a disability that affects his learning, that's unfortunate, but the test must remain an accurate measurement instead of being a random number generator.

Now, if the student has a disability that specifically prevents him from taking an exam, that's a different story. He might understand the material perfectly; he just has trouble demonstrating it in an exam setting. In that case, it's possible to accommodate him without compromising the accuracy of the test.

 

[HeLiXe]

Teacher's fault, not student's. The teacher should never have let him have at his test again after leaving the room for so long.

I understand your point about the teacher not giving the test back to the student, but I don't think the teacher should be faulted for the student's dishonesty. I think she was acting in good faith as the question needed clarification and he missed it.

I guess he went to the restroom. If you leave the room and give your test to the professor, it means it's game over for you, you finished it. If you went to the restroom you can still come back.

He was finished and gave it to the teacher. She gave permission for students to leave and come back at a later time for lecture (when testing was over).

 

[tedbradly]

I understand your point about the teacher not giving the test back to the student, but I don't think the teacher should be faulted for the student's dishonesty. I think she was acting in good faith as the question needed clarification and he missed it.

He was finished and gave it to the teacher. She gave permission for students to leave and come back at a later time for lecture (when testing was over).

In my opinion, ambiguous questions are fair game on tests, because the truly knowledgeable will find the discrepancy and ask about it in class, which should be done in private. A teacher should not reveal the error on a test to all, revealing it instead only to the one who asked, (if it affects all evenly) nor give a student who left after the first sighting of that error another chance. He left without asking for clarification. Obviously, he didn't understand the material for having left.

And someone who withholds exposing a cheater is equally guilty of cheating. If the person who spotted this problem feels so bad about it, he should turn him in.

 

[HeLiXe]

In my opinion, ambiguous questions are fair game on tests, because the truly knowledgeable will find the discrepancy and ask about it in class, which should be done in private. A teacher should not reveal the error on a test to all, revealing it instead only to the one who asked, (if it affects all evenly) nor give a student who left after the first sighting of that error another chance. He left without asking for clarification. Obviously, he didn't understand the material for having left.

And someone who withholds exposing a cheater is equally guilty of cheating. If the person who spotted this problem feels so bad about it, he should turn him in.

I understand that this is your opinion, but I really cannot agree with all of your logic.

 

[tedbradly]

I understand that this is your opinion, but I really cannot agree with all of your logic.

Where do you stop agreeing with it? If I were a teacher, I'd never intentionally insert error. But if there is some, why should only one student, the one who found it first, be disadvantaged by wasting his time in asking the question that all else should ask? It is fairest for all to find and ask about the error themselves, offering fairness to the first to ask it. And, sensibly, I would disclose this policy to my students to encourage them to ask about dubious questions.

 

[Pythagorean]

The bold there is a little caveat I feel you need to add. I can't speak for all of us on the forum not from the states but here in the UK drug use for studies is very rare, probably due to the far less prevalence of prescription drugs.

Wait, what? Theres other countries besides the US and Iraq? Huh...

 

[HeLiXe]

Where do you stop agreeing with it? If I were a teacher, I'd never intentionally insert error. But if there is some, why should only one student, the one who found it first, be disadvantaged by wasting his time in asking the question that all else should ask? It is fairest for all to find and ask about the error themselves, offering fairness to the first to ask it. And, sensibly, I would disclose this policy to my students to encourage them to ask about dubious questions.

How does this exclude the responsibility of the student to be honest, and how does this make the teacher at fault for the student's dishonesty? How is the person who asked first disadvantaged if the teacher makes the error known to the class? If the teacher made an error and discloses it to the students, why is that unfair? These are the points in the logic I do not agree with.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

In my opinion, ambiguous questions are fair game on tests, because the truly knowledgeable will find the discrepancy and ask about it in class, which should be done in private. A teacher should not reveal the error on a test to all, revealing it instead only to the one who asked, (if it affects all evenly) nor give a student who left after the first sighting of that error another chance. He left without asking for clarification. Obviously, he didn't understand the material for having left.

And someone who withholds exposing a cheater is equally guilty of cheating. If the person who spotted this problem feels so bad about it, he should turn him in.

I'm afraid I don't agree with this. Students are there to learn from a teacher, if they could go away and learn it all by themselves then they wouldn't need to be taught. Yes students should be able to spot some errors however if a lecturer presents a fact which other things are contingent on and this fact turns out to be wrong it is his fault, not the students for not spotting it.

 

[tedbradly]

How does this exclude the responsibility of the student to be honest, and how does this make the teacher at fault for the student's dishonesty?

Humans are too weak, and to offer such an easy course of debauchery is the teacher's fault, not the student's.

How is the person who asked first disadvantaged if the teacher makes the error known to the class? If the teacher made an error and discloses it to the students, why is that unfair? These are the points in the logic I do not agree with.

Because he alone had to waste test-taking time to ask the question and wait on the response. Further, it also offers a chance that he worked on the problem, wasting time, while another student skipped it. Then, he is the one that wasted time, having discovered the issue (which deserves reward, not penalty) and then the student who coincidentally skipped it (and perhaps may not have even been well-versed enough to spot the error) reaps the benefits relative to the better student who sighted the error.

It is fairest to have each student work through the problem impossibly, discover that impossibility, ask about it, and then correctly finish the problem. Otherwise, coincidence and perhaps even inability reap reward over more watchful students.

I'm afraid I don't agree with this. Students are there to learn from a teacher, if they could go away and learn it all by themselves then they wouldn't need to be taught. Yes students should be able to spot some errors however if a lecturer presents a fact which other things are contingent on and this fact turns out to be wrong it is his fault, not the students for not spotting it.

All you're mentioning is the difference between an A and B student. An A student discovers errors in his professor's teachings (I alone found +20 errors in my teacher's book, which he thanked me for). A B student sits back and does little extra work.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

All you're mentioning is the difference between an A and B student. An A student discovers errors in his professor's teachings (I alone found +20 errors in my teacher's book, which he thanked me for). A B student sits back and does little extra work.

That's not true in every case, there is a massive difference between working out that something a professor said doesn't make sense or looking up the information the professor provided because it was required and fact-checking everything your professor says. For example if your teacher gives you a lecture slide with a transcription pathway map on it intended to supplement your learning on how an endocrine works there is no need to go away and check that everything on that map is true.

Your statement stands only on the subjects that require or are likely to be studied further. It is not practical and unrealistic to expect a student to go and check that everything the professor said is true. There is a world of difference between extra reading/self-study and fact-checking everything that is said.

 

[JaredJames]

Because he alone had to waste test-taking time to ask the question and wait on the response.

What's he waiting for a response on? If he's spotted an error and has to ask anyway if it's correct, then he's losing the time either way. No disadvantage there.

His advantage is that he doesn't have to wait for the teacher to announce it so he gains all of those few seconds over others.

Until the mistake is spotted, all students are wasting time attempting to answer the flawed question, so it's not giving any advantage to others at all by pointing it out.

It is fairest to have each student work through, discover, ask about, and then correctly finish the problem.

So the teacher has to answer each student individually? What if a few find it at the same time? They all then have to wait until he's finished with the previous in order to get to them, at which point they have lost valuable time - more so than in your ridiculous idea above. In fact, the person last to speak to by the teacher may loose significant time, even though they found it at the same point as others.

 

[tedbradly]

What's he waiting for a response on? If he's spotted an error and has to ask anyway if it's correct, then he's losing the time either way. No disadvantage there.

His advantage is that he doesn't have to wait for the teacher to announce it so he gains all of those few seconds over others.

Until the mistake is spotted, all students are wasting time attempting to answer the flawed question, so it's not giving any advantage to others at all by pointing it out.So the teacher has to answer each student individually? What if a few find it at the same time? They all then have to wait until he's finished with the previous in order to get to them, at which point they have lost valuable time - more so than in your ridiculous idea above. In fact, the person last to speak to by the teacher may loose significant time, even though they found it at the same point as others.

Why are you assuming students do the tests in the same order? All students are not necessarily wasting time on the erroneous problem.

And yes, you're right about having to wait, but I'd rather punish people for being slow than punish people for being exceptional.

Plus, if this policy is impractical like you say, then I'll have no questions from test-takers. Instead, they must prove it is flawed, upon which they receive full credit.

 

[JaredJames]

Why are you assuming students do the tests in the same order? All students are not necessarily wasting time on the erroneous problem.

I'm not. But on a test (as with my own) where there are only six questions, the chances are that out of the 30 of us someone is doing the same question at the same time as me. Therefore if we both spot the error together, one will be disadvantaged waiting for a response.

And yes, you're right about having to wait, but I'd rather punish people for being slow than punish people for being exceptional.

Again, you're assuming it's an 'exceptional' student who spots it. Could be a poor student who only knows that one type of question thanks to learning only how to answer that particular style of question.

Plus, if this policy is impractical like you say, then I'll have no questions from test-takers. Instead, they must prove it is flawed, upon which they receive full credit.

You think spotting a mistake should be worth full credit? This argument is getting weaker by the post.

 

[HeLiXe]

(I alone found +20 errors in my teacher's book, which he thanked me for)

Thank you for answering tedbradly. When you found these errors and told the teacher, did you tell him and expect him not to correct them, but to let others find the errors for themselves? If he corrected the errors based on what you told him, do you think that is unfair to you?

 

[tedbradly]

I'm not. But on a test (as with my own) where there are only six questions, the chances are that out of the 30 of us someone is doing the same question at the same time as me. Therefore if we both spot the error together, one will be disadvantaged waiting for a response.Again, you're assuming it's an 'exceptional' student who spots it. Could be a poor student who only knows that one type of question thanks to learning only how to answer that particular style of question.

You're right. Instead of having people question it or having all know about the error after the questioning, the best solution is for the students to reason a question is erroneous (on the test) if it happens to be so. That way, no one is disadvantaged except the weaker students.

Thank you for answering tedbradly. When you found these errors and told the teacher, did you tell him and expect him not to correct them, but to let others find the errors for themselves? If he corrected the errors based on what you told him, do you think that is unfair to you?

He didn't tell other students about the errors during that class, so it was all fair since the curve he established compared student in that class mainly. So no, I felt fine, and I feel fine if he corrected it for later classes since they are not in direct competition with me.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

You're right. Instead of having people question it or having all know about the error after the questioning, the best solution is for the students to reason a question is erroneous if it happens to be so. That way, no one is disadvantaged except the weaker students.

Or the students who came to learn from their teacher

 

[JaredJames]

You're right. Instead of having people question it or having all know about the error after the questioning, the best solution is for the students to reason a question is erroneous if it happens to be so. That way, no one is disadvantaged except the weaker students.

And how much time would it take for a first year class of 100 AE students who all spot the mistake to reason it in front of the teacher individually (wouldn't want them sharing now would we)?

 

[tedbradly]

And how much time would it take for a first year class of 100 AE students who all spot the mistake to reason it in front of the teacher individually (wouldn't want them sharing now would we)?

They reason it on the test as an answer. That is the idea, to remove that wasted time.

Or the students who came to learn from their teacher

Are you seriously saying there is a problem if students who attend class are better off than students who do not attend class? I think that's how it is for most classes...

 

[JaredJames]

He didn't tell other students about the errors during that class, so it was all fair since the curve he established compared student in that class mainly. So no, I felt fine, and I feel fine if he corrected it for later classes since they are not in direct competition with me.

You realize that a teacher making a mistake and teaching it to a class and then not correcting it can mean the difference between life and death in some cases? That it can be the difference between doing a good job and a bad job? A simple mistake in how to apply safety factors that isn't spotted could spell disaster if that student applied them to a real life problem.

 

[JaredJames]

Are you seriously saying there is a problem if students who attend class are better off than students who do not attend class? I think that's how it is for most classes...

What?

Under your rules even if you attend the class you don't get the correction unless you spot it yourself.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

Humans are too weak, and to offer such an easy course of debauchery is the teacher's fault, not the student's.


Because he alone had to waste test-taking time to ask the question and wait on the response. Further, it also offers a chance that he worked on the problem, wasting time, while another student skipped it. Then, he is the one that wasted time, having discovered the issue (which deserves reward, not penalty) and then the student who coincidentally skipped it (and perhaps may not have even been well-versed enough to spot the error) reaps the benefits relative to the better student who sighted the error.

It is fairest to have each student work through the problem impossibly, discover that impossibility, ask about it, and then correctly finish the problem. Otherwise, coincidence and perhaps even inability reap reward over more watchful students.


All you're mentioning is the difference between an A and B student. An A student discovers errors in his professor's teachings (I alone found +20 errors in my teacher's book, which he thanked me for). A B student sits back and does little extra work.

Except we don't base education on a Randian philosophy (which is a very good thing in my books). As a TA I've always found the experience as a struggle to get the requisite knowledge in.. either by hook or by crook. Student A may see a typo and, despite thoroughly knowing the course material, may question their knowledge, assume THEY are wrong rather than a test, person B may know nothing but still assumes they must be right (I'm also the administrator for online assignments they do so I can assure you there's a certain type of person that when they get the wrong answer they ALWAYS assume the question must be wrong (god forbid they get something wrong)). You may not think it but I can virtually guarantee that there were a dozen little points in your life where a teacher gave you the benefit of the doubt (you may never have even been aware of it) which ultimately led to where you are now. Students get things wrong for all kinds of different reasons. Most of which have nothing to do with acumen with the courses material.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Are you seriously saying there is a problem if students who attend class are better off than students who do not attend class? I think that's how it is for most classes...

I was referring to your idea that "That way, no one is disadvantaged except the weaker students." If students are taught an error by a teacher then they are disadvantaged.

 

[tedbradly]

You realize that a teacher making a mistake and teaching it to a class and then not correcting it can mean the difference between life and death in some cases? That it can be the difference between doing a good job and a bad job? A simple mistake in how to apply safety factors that isn't spotted could spell disaster if that student applied them to a real life problem.

No, it's fine that way, because any decent professor will grade on a curve. Thus, if all miss it, no one is harmed. If only the exceptional student gets it, he is rewarded. Problem solved.

 

[micromass]

I do think that spotting a mistake might be worth a few points. Depending on what mistake.
I remember a test where some students were asked to prove something, but it was actually incorrect. However, constructing a counterexample (or even spotting that it was incorrect) was not trivial at all.
One or two students did manage to come up with a counterexample, and they were rewarded points for the problem. I think that's only fair.

But note, I'm not talking about typo's or trivialities here. I just think that spotting errors and being able to explain why it is an error might be worth some points...

 

[JaredJames]

No, it's fine that way, because any decent professor will grade on a curve. Thus, if all miss it, no one is harmed. If only the exceptional student gets it, he is rewarded. Problem solved.

Right, so you want someone who is exceptional all round but doesn't spot a mistake at some point - and learns the mistake to be the correct method / value - using that mistake in their career? This is nonsense.

"If all miss it" may not mean much on a test, but as above, it could mean all those students end up working with false data in the future, potentially endangering lives. It may sound like an over reaction, but it can happen and is something you should be working to prevent.

 

[JaredJames]

I do think that spotting a mistake might be worth a few points. Depending on what mistake.
I remember a test where some students were asked to prove something, but it was actually incorrect. However, constructing a counterexample (or even spotting that it was incorrect) was not trivial at all.
One or two students did manage to come up with a counterexample, and they were rewarded points for the problem. I think that's only fair.

But note, I'm not talking about typo's or trivialities here. I just think that spotting errors and being able to explain why it is an error might be worth some points...

There's a difference between rewarding someone for spotting a mistake (which I agree with so far as a few marks go) and then allowing others to continue without flagging the mistake (of course, unless as per your example the question demanded it).

 

[HeLiXe]

Thanks for explaining tedbradly, I understand your reasoning more clearly now especially given the variables you are considering.

 

[KingNothing]

I think it is fair for a teacher to announce mistakes on a test question to the whole class. The whole point of a test is to measure students' understanding. If a mistake is made in such a way that it actually hinders the ability of the test to measure students' abilities, then it should be changed.

I've had professors who offered a point or two of extra credit for finding errors.

 

[HeLiXe]

I've never had professors give me credit for finding errors, but I do think it is fair for a teacher to make all test takers aware of critical errors on the test.

 

[maverick_starstrider]

You guys are all acting like any given test should be the make or break of a student's future and those who exceed all expectation should be rewarded and those who fail to perform flawlessly are culled. Students have other courses, they have lives and are all finding their own life/academics balance. If you **** up while writing a test well then YOU ****ed up. And, again, as a TA, for whatever reason I'M always the one who spots errors, despite their being 4-5 OTHER TAs and 1-2 professors for a given course. Why? Because they don't give a ****, and if they don't give a **** it's ridiculous to expect students to take your test as if it were dictated via burning bush and handed down on stone tablet. Getting kids to understand concepts is hard enough without throwing them curveballs because you're too incompetent to proof read your own tests. I literally got into a yelling argument once with this prof over a question. Essentially the question was wrong and he admitted as much. There was no way to generate the right answer. So would he fix it? No. He merely claimed "they need to understand that life's not fair" and shrugged it off. Real story. I know it sounds like a cliche but it really happened. There are a million different things that add up to a given students performance on a given test day and you're actually only interested in a handful of them. The least you can do is remove confounding factors like "time given" and errors

 

[pergradus]

I have thought of many elaborate ways to cheat, but never ended up using them. I've earned every grade I've gotten - but I could have cheated if I had wanted to!

 

[maverick_starstrider]

I have thought of many elaborate ways to cheat, but never ended up using them. I've earned every grade I've gotten - but I could have cheated if I had wanted to!

I've taught many classes with cheaters, the worst of which being pre-med students, but the most appalling things? Most of them suck at it! They cheat through their teeth but I'm too lazy to call them on it because they STILL come out with a 65%. TAing such courses has definitely crushed what little respect I had for medical doctors. Being a cheater is one thing, being a BAD cheater? That's 10 times worse.

 

[tedbradly]

I've taught many classes with cheaters, the worst of which being pre-med students, but the most appalling things? Most of them suck at it! They cheat through their teeth but I'm too lazy to call them on it because they STILL come out with a 65%. TAing such courses has definitely crushed what little respect I had for medical doctors. Being a cheater is one thing, being a BAD cheater? That's 10 times worse.

I always want to see my doctor's grades. Who wants a pile of crap average doctor to treat you? There's no good way to request it that I know of, though.

 

[DaveC426913]

I always want to see my doctor's grades. Who wants a pile of crap average doctor to treat you? There's no good way to request it that I know of, though.

Perhaps not, but there are 'rate my doctor' sites online.

 

[tedbradly]

Perhaps not, but there are 'rate my doctor' sites online.

I can see that telling the wrong half of the story, though. Perhaps, someone incorrectly demanded something that a good doctor would correctly deny yet receive negative feedback for having done so.

If anything, I'd like to see both ratings of service (from users) and ratings of knowledge (from institutions designed for that measurement, i.e. schools and testing companies).