I Time harmonic case of Gauss's Law

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the implications of time harmonic electric fields in relation to Gauss's Law, specifically why a time harmonic electric field cannot bound a charge source. It is clarified that in a homogeneous material with no free charge or current, the divergence of the electric field is zero, indicating no charge buildup. The conversation highlights that if the material is homogeneous, the absence of surface interfaces prevents polarization charges, leading to a consistent conclusion that divergence remains zero. The assumption of a single homogeneous material is deemed crucial, overshadowing the harmonic time dependence. Overall, the participants agree that the nature of the material significantly influences the behavior of electric fields in this context.
elyons
Messages
10
Reaction score
1
In a chapter building up to the theory of plane waves my book starts by introducing
time harmonic electric fields and defines a special case of Gauss's law.curl(H) = J + dD/dt

curl(H) = sigma * E + epsilon * dE/dt

if E is time harmonic and spacially dependent... E(x,y,z,t) let E' represent the phasor form

curl(H) = sigma * E' + epsilon * j * w * E'

curl(H) = (sigma + epsilon*j*w) E'

of curl(H) = jw(epsilon - j*sigma/w) E'
where epsilon - j*sigma/w = epsilon_c (complex permittivity)given that... divergence(curl(H)) = 0...

divergence( jw * epsilon_c * E') = 0

therefore divergence(E) = 0

so pv (volume charge density) = 0 by Gauss's lawI am very confused why a time harmonic E field can never bound a charge source and why it's divergence is always zero as my book seems to suggest.
I am guessing of have missed a major assumption and or am misinterpreting something? Looking for some guidance. Thanks!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Let's take the divergence of both sides of this equation, but let's assume ## J=J_{free} =0 ##, and let's look at ## 0=\frac{d \nabla \cdot D}{dt}=\frac{d (\epsilon_o \nabla \cdot E+\nabla \cdot P)}{dt} ##. If we have a single material, and a single frequency, we can write ## P(\omega)=\epsilon_o \, \chi(\omega) E(\omega) ##, with ## E(t)=E(\omega)e^{i \omega t} ## and ## P(t)=P(\omega) e^{i \omega t} ##. Having a single homogeneous material means we get no polarization charges on any surface interface, (because there are no surface interfaces), and with the equation as we have it, it shows that we must have ## \nabla \cdot E=0 ##. We won't get any polarization charge inside the single uniform material. ## \\ ## I think a similar argument could be applied to the ## \nabla \cdot J_{free}=\nabla \cdot (\sigma E ) ## term. If the conductor is homogeneous, and responds linearly with ## J=\sigma E ##, so that ## J(\omega)=\sigma(\omega) \, E(\omega)##, there is no charge build-up anywhere. (If the conductor has a boundary, so that ## \sigma ## is not constant, then you will get charge build-up, and ## \nabla \cdot E \neq 0 ## ). ## \\ ## I don't know that what is found in your textbook is saying anything of any more significance than what I have just shown.
 
Last edited:
Charles Link said:
Let's take the divergence of both sides of this equation, but let's assume ## J=J_{free} =0 ##, and let's look at ## 0=\frac{d \nabla \cdot D}{dt}=\frac{d (\epsilon_o \nabla \cdot E+\nabla \cdot P)}{dt} ##. If we have a single material, and a single frequency, we can write ## P(\omega)=\epsilon_o \, \chi(\omega) E(\omega) ##, with ## E(t)=E(\omega)e^{i \omega t} ## and ## P(t)=P(\omega) e^{i \omega t} ##. Having a single homogeneous material means we get no polarization charges on any surface interface, (because there are no surface interfaces), and with the equation as we have it, it shows that we must have ## \nabla \cdot E=0 ##. We won't get any polarization charge inside the single uniform material. ## \\ ## I think a similar argument could be applied to the ## \nabla \cdot J_{free}=\nabla \cdot (\sigma E ) ## term. If the conductor is homogeneous, and responds linearly with ## J=\sigma E ##, so that ## J(\omega)=\sigma(\omega) \, E(\omega)##, there is no charge build-up anywhere. (If the conductor has a boundary, so that ## \sigma ## is not constant, then you will get charge build-up, and ## \nabla \cdot E \neq 0 ## ). ## \\ ## I don't know that what is found in your textbook is saying anything of any more significance than what I have just shown.

Thank you for the response, I think this helps me narrow down my confusion a bit more. This makes sense for a 'charge and current' free region as you are showing, that an externally produced E field would not result in any long term charge in a homogeneous material.
I think my confusion is that my book doesn't seem to make this assumption (maybe I missed this?) of being in a current free charge free region.
If there was some theoretical time harmonic source of charge wouldn't it produce a time harmonic E field and then wouldn't the volume charge density have nonzero value at various points in time in that region?
 
elyons said:
Thank you for the response, I think this helps me narrow down my confusion a bit more. This makes sense for a 'charge and current' free region as you are showing, that an externally produced E field would not result in any long term charge in a homogeneous material.
I think my confusion is that my book doesn't seem to make this assumption (maybe I missed this?) of being in a current free charge free region.
If there was some theoretical time harmonic source of charge wouldn't it produce a time harmonic E field and then wouldn't the volume charge density have nonzero value at various points in time in that region?
I only assumed ## J_{free} =0 ## ,(and presumably ## \rho_{free}=0 ##), for the very first paragraph. After that, the more general case applies, but again, the assumption of a homogeneous material still applies. ## \\ ## The assumption of a single homogeneous material seems to be the important one in all cases here, rather than a harmonic time dependence. ## \\ ## Note: In the equation ## \nabla \times H=J+\frac{\partial{D}}{\partial{t}} ##, the ## J ## here is ## J_{free} ##. ## \\ ## The ## J_m =\nabla \times M ## and ## J_p=\dot{P} ## are not part of ## J ## here, in this equation. ## \\ ## And also notice if ## \sigma ## and ## \epsilon ## are spatially dependent, i.e. a non-homogeneous material, then ## \nabla \sigma \neq 0 ## and ## \nabla \epsilon \neq 0 ##, so that ## \nabla \cdot ( \sigma E) \neq \sigma \nabla \cdot E ##, and ## \nabla \cdot (\epsilon E) \neq \epsilon \nabla \cdot E ##, so that an algebraic step that was assumed would not be permissible.## \\ ## (Note: ## \nabla \cdot (\sigma E)=(\nabla \sigma) \cdot E+\sigma \nabla \cdot E ## ).
 
Last edited:
Charles Link said:
I only assumed ## J_{free} =0 ## ,(and presumably ## \rho_{free}=0 ##), for the very first paragraph. After that, the more general case applies, but again, the assumption of a homogeneous material still applies. ## \\ ## The assumption of a single homogeneous material seems to be the important one in all cases here, rather than a harmonic time dependence. ## \\ ## Note: In the equation ## \nabla \times H=J+\frac{\partial{D}}{\partial{t}} ##, the ## J ## here is ## J_{free} ##. ## \\ ## The ## J_m =\nabla \times M ## and ## J_p=\dot{P} ## are not part of ## J ## here, in this equation. ## \\ ## And also notice if ## \sigma ## and ## \epsilon ## are spatially dependent, i.e. a non-homogeneous material, then ## \nabla \sigma \neq 0 ## and ## \nabla \epsilon \neq 0 ##, so that ## \nabla \cdot ( \sigma E) \neq \sigma \nabla \cdot E ##, and ## \nabla \cdot (\epsilon E) \neq \epsilon \nabla \cdot E ##, so that an algebraic step that was assumed would not be permissible.## \\ ## (Note: ## \nabla \cdot (\sigma E)=(\nabla \sigma) \cdot E+\sigma \nabla \cdot E ## ).

Thanks! The spatially dependent case clears up my confusion.
 
  • Like
Likes Charles Link
Thread 'Is there a white hole inside every black hole?'
This is what I am thinking. How much feasible is it? There is a white hole inside every black hole The white hole spits mass/energy out continuously The mass/energy that is spit out of a white hole drops back into it eventually. This is because of extreme space time curvature around the white hole Ironically this extreme space time curvature of the space around a white hole is caused by the huge mass/energy packed in the white hole Because of continuously spitting mass/energy which keeps...
Back
Top