Tired of having your Ideals Challenged?

[Drakkith]

I really want anyone who reads this bulletin to think, and think harder than what these post are talking about, read 4 lines deep between the words and beyond the meaning

This is a physics forum, not a philosophy forum. It helps to state your meaning as clearly as possible. Otherwise that thing that someone is thinking about could be completely counter to what you were suggesting.

Ha, reality. it reminds me of a quotes "Ones persons craziness is another reality" -Tim Burton. Still, reality is subjective and it seems like you do mean that the person could be to weak to do anything about how the situation they are in.

It's not weakness, it's an inability to change someone's mind. Practically any group of people working toward a common goal will have some sort of leader, it's just the way we work. This is either through the appointing of one, such as any workplace, or through social pressures or whatever you want to call it, such as a group of students working on a project where one person happens to become the de facto leader because of their personality, skills, or whatever.

Most people have had plenty of situations where they've made suggestions and they've been shot down, so eventually they just stop trying to change things and just go with the flow. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Suggestions can be good or bad. I know I've had to shoot down my share of bad suggestions because the person suggesting them didn't know what they were talking about. Of course at the same time I've also tried to listen to people and taken the good ones to heart. It's just as important to know when to suggest change as it is to know when not to suggest change. People who continually question pointless everyday things or make suggestions about every little thing quickly become super annoying to work with.

Completely right! But explaining it isn't the problem, just make the person think. if they do not want to think, then why argue? If you cannot replace a persons opinion with logical, rational statements which clearly depict the way beyond the norm, why is this "conflict" happening? When people do end up producing a logical argument they (the opposing party) tend to deny the rights on the other person, this is going back to my question "does this make them ahead of their time?(the ones who is questioning the norm)" , if so why won't anyone catch up?

I don't really know what you're getting at here. The conflict happens because two people have different opinions about something. You may even think you have a reasonable, logical argument, but from the other persons point of view your logic may be flawed, you may not understand the whole situation, or any number of things.

Again, this willingness for the authority to push for the change that they want, why would this power be let to go unchecked? Dissension is the way to democracy, the rule of the people, the decentralized government has rise! I do not know, the stuff seems like you believe that a politically weak adversary don't have the right to voice opinions.

My statements have nothing to do with politics specifically and everything to do with people as a whole. Democracy in the US is a totally different subject that what we are discussing and I believe we should keep it out of this thread or political arguments will spread like wildfire and this thread will be locked.

 

[NemoReally]

I don't know, I seem to get in trouble very often and I do not know why. All I do is challenge authority.

I am an impolite person

Have you not worked out a probable answer to your question yet?

Why do other people who I am associated with get punished also, why do my so called friends tell me not to challenge this "power to be"?

Sigh. Let's see, your "associates" get punished when you "challenge authority" and then you wonder why they ask you not to? Hmm, tricky one, that, isn't it?

by nature, don't blame me for my natural inquisitions, my innate curiosity.

Attributes that many people, and not just scientists, share. But they are not all rude in the manner in which they attempt to discover things from others and raise questions.

You wouldn't blame a person with down syndrome who couldn't tie their shoe could you? Why blame a person who is some what impolite?

No, but after assessing the individual a little more closely, I would "blame" the person for not having the insight to learn a little courtesy, particularly if they are the ones who claim to have insights that "authority" does not and which lack the "lemmings" do not question. What's so special about you that you can't, or don't feel the need to, control your impoliteness?

As with Drakkith, I've got a military background (16 yrs as an engineering officer) and one of the many things I learned was that if you're after simple, correct answers to ill-defined, unquantified questions with no background information then you're living on the wrong planet.

 

[jim hardy]

Natural Selection works in social mechanisms. We got where we are by, to borrow a phrase, standing on the shoulders of giants.
To presume that because we enjoy this 'view from a height', the giants who got us here can be dismissed as mental elves is at the very least a gross mistake. They learned through experience what ideas and methods work and what ones do not work. Reject them at your peril, you're dismissing your own support system.



“The individual's most vital need is to prove his worth, and this usually means an insatiable hunger for action. For it is only the few who can acquire a sense of worth by developing and employing their capacities and talents...”

"Both the revolutionary and the creative individual are perpetual juveniles. The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing. "
eric hoffer, the ordeal of change

You'll get farther in life by getting and keeping your little corner of the world in such good order that others take note and see it as an example.



old jim

 

[Tenshou]

This is a physics forum, not a philosophy forum. It helps to state your meaning as clearly as possible. Otherwise that thing that someone is thinking about could be completely counter to what you were suggesting.

Philosophy is a science and this forum contains most Natural and Pure sciences. Thinking is subjective, and I made that statement such that It would, or possibly even could be counter to what I was thinking.

It's not weakness, it's an inability to change someone's mind. Practically any group of people working toward a common goal will have some sort of leader, it's just the way we work. This is either through the appointing of one, such as any workplace, or through social pressures or whatever you want to call it, such as a group of students working on a project where one person happens to become the de facto leader because of their personality, skills, or whatever.

What is weakness to you? Yeah, social animals do work in the fashion of having a pack leader, cult leader (note that I am using cult to refer to cultural conditioning, and a person who is in charge of the cultural thing.) still the leader doesn't have to take the role of an authority figure. what do you think would happen, if they did take the role of the authority?

Most people have had plenty of situations where they've made suggestions and they've been shot down, so eventually they just stop trying to change things and just go with the flow. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Suggestions can be good or bad. I know I've had to shoot down my share of bad suggestions because the person suggesting them didn't know what they were talking about. Of course at the same time I've also tried to listen to people and taken the good ones to heart. It's just as important to know when to suggest change as it is to know when not to suggest change. People who continually question pointless everyday things or make suggestions about every little thing quickly become super annoying to work with.

How do you know the person didn't know what they were talking about? what gave that kind of indication? Questioning everything, just means you want to learn, babies they question everything, or they want to explore everything around them because it is so new, you know like a new concept! Don't you like exploring new concepts? Well, I guess that is just a simple quirk you have to over come, I mean if you do want to make friends, and friends are better than enemies.

I don't really know what you're getting at here. The conflict happens because two people have different opinions about something. You may even think you have a reasonable, logical argument, but from the other persons point of view your logic may be flawed, you may not understand the whole situation, or any number of things.

If you do not believe a person to be reasonable, then why not point out the flaw in their logical argument and have that stated as the counter argument. If they didn't understand the bigger picture, then why could not be a simple, and in a polite way state to the conformal/non-conformal character, the multitude of things. Patience the virtue, impulse the vice.

My statements have nothing to do with politics specifically and everything to do with people as a whole. Democracy in the US is a totally different subject that what we are discussing and I believe we should keep it out of this thread or political arguments will spread like wildfire and this thread will be locked.

Yeah I know, I just wanted to begin to narrow it down so it as broad as so many people claim that it is. I only suggested democracy, for one because it characterizes the standards for unadulterated freedom, and the second thing is that democracy is decentralized power (meaning a direct democracy). I don't understand why this thread will be locked, if a conversation between competent and rational beings would talk about politics?

Have you not worked out a probable answer to your question yet?

I don't see how a persons ability to be non-conforming rude. Do you? I mean, if a person has a lot of money, and prestige they are considered an eccentric, yet if they do not and are on the dredges of society they are called a non conformist. I implore you to please explain to me, if you do have the ability to see something I have missed.

Sigh. Let's see, your "associates" get punished when you "challenge authority" and then you wonder why they ask you not to? Hmm, tricky one, that, isn't it?

Pretty tricky, I do agree. You cannot liberate those who do not want freedom.

Attributes that many people, and not just scientists, share. But they are not all rude in the manner in which they attempt to discover things from others and raise questions.

Rude is just a word. The action is intent. One many not have that ability to comprehend something as rude. that is why I deferred about the down syndrome. Though, it is true that people under social condition some people do have the ability to know the difference between polite and rude in a conversational setting, I am just now referring to the past example, because I thought about conforming and non conforming. Although, the person with down syndrome cannot choose to be a non-conformist to the social environment, or probably anything for that fact. The people around them can choose. Rudeness is something that is understood in by the other party,subjective. Although one many not try to come off ignorant it is kind of hard not to when they aren't giving any answers, or better yet the simply answer "I simply do not know."

No, but after assessing the individual a little more closely, I would "blame" the person for not having the insight to learn a little courtesy, particularly if they are the ones who claim to have insights that "authority" does not and which lack the "lemmings" do not question. What's so special about you that you can't, or don't feel the need to, control your impoliteness?

Simply? I do not know, or better yet i don't know what it means to be polite.

As with Drakkith, I've got a military background (16 yrs as an engineering officer) and one of the many things I learned was that if you're after simple, correct answers to ill-defined, unquantified questions with no background information then you're living on the wrong planet.

There are many things I find abstract in this statement. Simple answers are easy to find "I do not know." is the best and simplest, when you shut down a person you close doors and may possibly lead them down the opposite direction, or to an unintentional place. I do not wish to base on the military, serve the country, serve the state. I am sure with your beautiful engineering degree, that you have lots of questions in fields you are ignorant in too. Everyone has curiosities about the different fields of exploration. Sometimes you just need patience, I am sure you have it.

These unquantified questions can lead to the build-up of a background, no one is to wise to learn, yet people become to wise to continue to learn.

Natural Selection works in social mechanisms. We got where we are by, to borrow a phrase, standing on the shoulders of giants.
To presume that because we enjoy this 'view from a height', the giants who got us here can be dismissed as mental elves is at the very least a gross mistake. They learned through experience what ideas and methods work and what ones do not work. Reject them at your peril, you're dismissing your own support system.

I do agree, oh my. I do not know what to say, but you are true.

“The individual's most vital need is to prove his worth, and this usually means an insatiable hunger for action. For it is only the few who can acquire a sense of worth by developing and employing their capacities and talents...”

I have this sense that I have heard that before, and there is knowledge in this quote.

"Both the revolutionary and the creative individual are perpetual juveniles. The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing. "
eric hoffer, the ordeal of change

You'll get farther in life by getting and keeping your little corner of the world in such good order that others take note and see it as an example.

old jim

That kind of reminds me of something from plato's apology. Although, I have not formally read this poetry myself, I think it is impertinent of you to take a look at the "childish" side of things, the one which is "never grows-up, because it is not finishes". It kind of reminds me of Neverland and Peter Pan.

 

[Evo]

The Op posts have driven this thread off topic.