To the converted atheists: What do you miss from believing ?

[Ivan Seeking]

Atheism is a leap of faith in the that it denies claims of direct experience.

 

[end3r7]

I'm interested in knowing how your physics friends feel about that. Are there plenty of religious physics majors?

I'm a math major, so I only know literally a handful of physics undergrads. All of them are Christian.

Although I contend that Biology is the field of science with most believers. I actually know some that don't believe in evolution (but these are getting a bio degree exclusively for med school).

What always annoyed me were the people who do pre-med and smoke, and the pre-vets who hunt as a sport, hehe

 

[Cyrus]

Atheism is a leap of faith in the that it denies claims of direct experience.

huh? Come on, people also claim to be probed in the butt by aliens.

 

[end3r7]

huh?

Why did you bite? :(

 

[Cyrus]

Why did you bite? :(

Nibble, just a nibble. No bite.

 

[lisab]

You mean that you don't like having faith that you will never see them again.

It would be so comforting if I could! The thought of leaving my daughter alone in the world is sad beyond belief (no pun intended!). But in my heart of hearts, I just can't make the leap.

I have a wonderful Christian friend who tells me I'll be the nicest person in hell!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

huh? Come on, people also claim to be probed in the butt by aliens.

Logic by Cyrus: Since we assume that some claims are false, we can conclude that all claims are false.

 

[Phlogistonian]

People with terrible diseases have been deliberately made to suffer if you are a believer.

May I ask to those who were or are comforted by an eternal after-life concept, why is that so comforting?

OK, I'll take a crack at this.

Many churches teach a watered-down version of Christianity that basically says that God exists to make you happy and improve your life. But this is backwards. If there is a God, then He is not the one who exists to serve. Rather, God created you to serve Him. And the point of religion is not just to find comfort, but to understand God and do what He wants. And if you disobey God, He has the power and authority to inflict any suffering He wants on you.

This is why the Bible says, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10)

So what about comfort? Comfort comes from forgiveness and the promise of eternal life. Some commenters have argued that eternal life would be boring, but they are limiting heaven to what they can imagine. An omnipotent God can create an infinite number of worlds to explore. I'm looking forward to it. :)

 

[Cyrus]

It would be so comforting if I could! The thought of leaving my daughter alone in the world is sad beyond belief (no pun intended!). But in my heart of hearts, I just can't make the leap.

I have a wonderful Christian friend who tells me I'll be the nicest person in hell!

Funny you should say that. There was some Korean guy from a ministry (I guess) bothering people on campus. He came to me and asked me my name and I told him. He then happily showed me where my name was in the bible and told me about how my name is important. He asked me if I am christian and I told him....nooo? He said, "Well, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you will go to hell. You don't want to go to hell do you?" He then said we should get together and talk about JEEBUS and friends. I told him SURE! We set up a date and he really couldn't stress enough how he had to drive all the way to campus so to be sure I'd be there when he arrived. I even gave him my phone number. When that day finally showed up he called me on my phone and asked where I was. I told him I was busy and hung up on the bastard.

Gimme a break, I am studying for my classes and he's going to come up to me and preach how I am going to hell...talk about digusting.

 

[Cyrus]

Logic by Cyrus: Since we assume that some claims are false, we can conclude that all claims are false.

Talk to any aliens lately? Just because a bunch of people say something doesn't make it so.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So you not only admit to the fallacy, but you are too small-minded to respond directly?

 

[OmCheeto]

It would be so comforting if I could! The thought of leaving my daughter alone in the world is sad beyond belief (no pun intended!). But in my heart of hearts, I just can't make the leap.

I have a wonderful Christian friend who tells me I'll be the nicest person in hell!

My brother has always said that he's volunteering to go to hell, to comfort the suffering. I think that's so nice of him. Even though he's a demon, god denying gay, and is going to hell whether he volunteers or not!

But then again, so am I...

We'll have tea and crumpets ready for you all. Sunscreen and lip-balm for the fair skinned ones. And don't forget to bring lots of water.

 

[Cyrus]

So you not only admit to the fallacy, but you are too small-minded to respond directly?

The answer to that question is that the brain has many, many mechanisms to cope with stress. I.e. seeing a 'light at the end of the tunnel', etc.

That, in no way, proves the existence of the divine, nor does it mean it holds weight.

LOTS of people claim to have seen UFOs. That does not mean there are UFOs. Nor does that validify it.

Lots of people also swear by homeopathics - so what.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There are UFOs. Sometimes they get identified.

You are still using the logic that since some claims are false, all claims are false. And history is full of reports of direct encouters with God, or Angels, or whatever, so it is not a matter that can be discarded by logic or by rationalizing select experiences. You make a choice to believe a claim or not, but it is a choice, and unless you can prove otherwise, a leap of faith.

By your logic, I can point to UFO claims that were true as evidence for God.

 

[lisab]

My brother has always said that he's volunteering to go to hell, to comfort the suffering. I think that's so nice of him. Even though he's a demon, god denying gay, and is going to hell whether he volunteers or not!

But then again, so am I...

We'll have tea and crumpets ready for you all. Sunscreen and lip-balm for the fair skinned ones. And don't forget to bring lots of water.

Thanks, OmCheeto! See you and your brother there...I need to find some sunscreen that's SPF 2,279...and maybe a welder's shield...

 

[Cyrus]

There are UFOs. Sometimes they get identified.

You are still using the logic that since some claims are false, all claims are false. And history is full of reports of direct encouters with God, or Angels, or whatever, so it is not a matter that can be discarded by logic or by rationalizing select experiences. You make a choice to believe a claim or not, but it is a choice, and unless you can prove otherwise, a leap of faith.

By your logic, I can point to UFO claims that were true as evidence for God.

No, its more than that. These claims are never reproducible, and the criterion by which these claims follow are so wishy washy they are basically useless.

Again these are claims - so what?

History is also full of crackpots and their claims on free energy devices. Does that make those real too?

 

[binzing]

WTF is going on here? Biting...Nibbling, wtf guys?

 

[lisab]

WTF is going on here? Biting...Nibbling, wtf guys?

Well...me, OmCheeto, and OmCheeto's brother are going to hell together. No biting!

 

[B. Elliott]

We'll have tea and crumpets ready for you all. Sunscreen and lip-balm for the fair skinned ones. And don't forget to bring lots of water.

I'm there! Tea and crumpets by the river Styx sounds breathtaking.

 

[lisab]

I'm there! Tea and crumpets by the river Styx sounds breathtaking.

And fine Mr Elliot shall join us!

 

[Daniel Y.]

WTF is going on here? Biting...Nibbling, wtf guys?

Hmm? This seems to be a reasonable discussion. No name calling or sweeping attacks so far; we're staying away from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law" , so I'd say no biting, just a little barking.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

No, its more than that. These claims are never reproducible, and the criterion by which these claims follow are so wishy washy they are basically useless.

First of all, if you mean UFOs, then we do have RADAR and other supporting evidence. And in both cases your demand for reproducibility is moot. Not everything can be reproduced on demand. This only speaks to the limits of science. Can you reproduce the Big Bang? We accept that in fact there are many phenomena that exist but can't yet be reproduced.

Again these are claims - so what?

History is also full of crackpots and their claims on free energy devices. Does that make those real too?

So what? History is also full of dedicated and honest people who told true stories. And many myths were later proven true.

The Fallacy of the Atheist: Some claims are false, so all claims are false.

 

[OmCheeto]

Thanks, OmCheeto! See you and your brother there...I need to find some sunscreen that's SPF 2,279...and maybe a welder's shield...

:!)

I always find it interesting, that after 2000+ years, we are still arguing about it. I guess this thread is god's retribution, for us not having our usual Sunday chat.

 

[DavidWhitbeck]

The Fallacy of the Atheist: Some claims are false, so all claims are false.

That is merely an attempt to shift the burden of proof onto the atheist. There is no fallacy, atheists need make no statements about the veracity of those claims, they must merely wait for theists to make their case.

 

[Cyrus]

First of all, if you mean UFOs, then we do have RADAR and other supporting evidence. And in both cases your demand for reproducibility is moot. Not everything can be reproduced on demand. This only speaks to the limits of science. Can you reproduce the Big Bang? We accept that in fact there are many phenomena that exist but can't yet be reproduced.



So what? History is also full of dedicated and honest people who told true stories. And many myths were later proven true.

The Fallacy of the Atheist: Some claims are false, so all claims are false.

Do you honestly believe everything you hear? Or do you take it with a grain of salt.

Why would I need to reproduce the big bang? Its effects can be seen all around us. Look through a telescope.

Ok, some myths turned out to be true. -and?

 

[Gokul43201]

Atheism is a leap of faith in the that it denies claims of direct experience.

Claims of any experience count for zippity doo dah!

 

[Cyrus]

Claims of any experience count for zippity doo dah!

Bo do do dunkaroooo! YIP YIP YIP YIPPPP (Sorry, I like onomatopoeia)

 

[OmCheeto]

That is merely an attempt to shift the burden of proof onto the atheist. There is no fallacy, atheists need make no statements about the veracity of those claims, they must merely wait for theists to make their case.

One day, when my friends left me stranded 25 miles from home base, and I'd walked about 18 miles by around 3 am, I decided that I was going to kill them all. At that moment, god tapped me on the shoulder and whispered; "Remember Job". I really couldn't remember anything specific about Job. But I decided that walking 25 miles was much better than being dead or lame or stupid or something much worse. So I forgave my friends.

Now I'm not claiming to be a Christian or anything as I never go to church.

But once in a while, it's nice to believe in something, even if it does turn out to be a spaghetti monster.

 

[Gokul43201]

Logic by Cyrus: Since we assume that some claims are false, we can conclude that all claims are false.

No Ivan - your reasoning is flawed. How do you assert that being probed in the butt is a false claim? It too is a claim of direct experience and so carries the same weight as any other unverifiable claim.

This is a clear misinterpretation of cyrus' argument.

 

[Cyrus]

Oh dear god, if you really do exist give me a sign...like a million dollars in my bank account!

-Woody.

 

[OmCheeto]

Oh dear god, if you really do exist give me a sign...like a million dollars in my bank account!

-Woody.

Anyone know how I can change my vote in the other thread from religious to atheist? I've been making the sign of the cross over my lottery tickets for 20 years now, and still nothing... Gosh, dag nabit, sakafrassin', good for nothing, money eatin, arrrrghhhh...

 

[Gokul43201]

First of all, if you mean UFOs, then we do have RADAR and other supporting evidence. And in both cases your demand for reproducibility is moot. Not everything can be reproduced on demand. This only speaks to the limits of science. Can you reproduce the Big Bang? We accept that in fact there are many phenomena that exist but can't yet be reproduced.

Fallacious argument. The point of science is not to be able to reproduce natural phenomena. This argument is based on a misunderstanding of science and hence is completely moot.

So what? History is also full of dedicated and honest people who told true stories. And many myths were later proven true.

It is the proving that takes the myths into the world of non-myth, not the telling of the story by an honest, dedicated person.

The Fallacy of the Atheist: Some claims are false, so all claims are false.

The fallacy of that argument: strawman.

 

[arunma]

OK, I'll take a crack at this.

Many churches teach a watered-down version of Christianity that basically says that God exists to make you happy and improve your life. But this is backwards. If there is a God, then He is not the one who exists to serve. Rather, God created you to serve Him. And the point of religion is not just to find comfort, but to understand God and do what He wants. And if you disobey God, He has the power and authority to inflict any suffering He wants on you.

This is why the Bible says, "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10)

I could get into theological rewordings about how "the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve." (Mark 10:45). But yes, I would basically concur with your explanations.

So what about comfort? Comfort comes from forgiveness and the promise of eternal life. Some commenters have argued that eternal life would be boring, but they are limiting heaven to what they can imagine. An omnipotent God can create an infinite number of worlds to explore. I'm looking forward to it. :)

Not to mention that many people seem to miss the purpose of eternal life as taught in the Bible. Everyone here seems to assume that the ultimate reward of eternal life is to be reunited to one's family and friends. But as my pastor back in college used to ask, "would you want to be in heaven if Christ were not there?" The answer must ultimately be no, lest one desire salvation for all the wrong reasons (and therefore not receive it). The first question in the Westminster Confession essentially addresses the meaning of life: "what is the chief end of man?" The answer is, "the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever." The purpose of salvation according to the Bible is to enjoy God. Not reunion with lost family, not streets of paved gold, and not any material comfort, but God himself. As you alluded, most churches in America teach a watered-down Christianity in which people of all religions are going to heaven and in which it's OK to worship God however you please (or not at all). The Bible neither teaches that people can be saved while practicing whatever religion they wish, nor that God requires nothing of man. It seems to me that a view of God has been promulgated in America in which people can invent facts about God and call it doctrine. I don't mean to lay any blame on the posters here who espouse such beliefs. On the contrary, it's the church's fault for preaching man-made religion. Even we physicists seem to have forgotten that just because something makes sense or is intellectually attractive doesn't make it true (anyone remember the ether-based explanation for the presence of magnetic dipole moments in electrons?). If one is to accept what the Bible teaches about the divine, then we must understand that the end goal of all things is not us, but God.

 

[OmCheeto]

If one is to accept what the Bible teaches about the divine, then we must understand that the end goal of all things is not us, but God.

I am definitely switching ranks then to atheism. It has always been, and always will be, about me.

hmmmm... Are the Hindu gods like that? Maybe I'll just switch affiliations. I've always wanted to see through the eye's of a grasshopper.


:zzz:

 

[Daniel Y.]

I could get into theological rewordings about how "the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve." (Mark 10:45). But yes, I would basically concur with your explanations.



Not to mention that many people seem to miss the purpose of eternal life as taught in the Bible. Everyone here seems to assume that the ultimate reward of eternal life is to be reunited to one's family and friends. But as my pastor back in college used to ask, "would you want to be in heaven if Christ were not there?" The answer must ultimately be no, lest one desire salvation for all the wrong reasons (and therefore not receive it). The first question in the Westminster Confession essentially addresses the meaning of life: "what is the chief end of man?" The answer is, "the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever." The purpose of salvation according to the Bible is to enjoy God. Not reunion with lost family, not streets of paved gold, and not any material comfort, but God himself. As you alluded, most churches in America teach a watered-down Christianity in which people of all religions are going to heaven and in which it's OK to worship God however you please (or not at all). The Bible neither teaches that people can be saved while practicing whatever religion they wish, nor that God requires nothing of man. It seems to me that a view of God has been promulgated in America in which people can invent facts about God and call it doctrine. I don't mean to lay any blame on the posters here who espouse such beliefs. On the contrary, it's the church's fault for preaching man-made religion. Even we physicists seem to have forgotten that just because something makes sense or is intellectually attractive doesn't make it true (anyone remember the ether-based explanation for the presence of magnetic dipole moments in electrons?). If one is to accept what the Bible teaches about the divine, then we must understand that the end goal of all things is not us, but God.

I'm not sure what you mean. The "goal is god"? Can you elucidate this statement a little please? Do you mean the goal is to worship god, or to be his amigo? Or bask in his greatness?