Toward the Stars: Technological, Ethical, and Sociopolitical Dimension

[sbrothy]

Thought this sounded exciting, if nothing else then as possible basis for a discussion.

Toward the Stars: Technological, Ethical, and Sociopolitical Dimensions of Interstellar Exploration.

Regards.

EDIT: Corrected link.

 

[Vanadium 50]

What do you want to discuss? I hope more than here's 26 pages, go read them.

 

[sbrothy]

What do you want to discuss? I hope more than here's 26 pages, go read them.

Read them? I thought the MO was that you read it and discussed it among yourselves for my entertainment. You're saying I actually have to put in some work here? Life isn't fair.

But yes, seriously, of course I'm gonna read it and see if there's anything to discuss. BBL.

:)

 

[sbrothy]

[...]we stand on the brink of becoming an interstellar species[...]

Really? I think I need a strong set of binoculars to see that brink. I find that a little optimistic but lets roll
with it...

Kim Stanley Robinson [KSR] touches on many of the same issues in his fiction book Aurora. Do we have a resposibility towards subsequent generations on e.g. a generation ship? Normally we don't think about our descendants when colonizing some new place on Earth, but at least here there's a ecology supporting life with air, pressure, and a magnetic field protecting us from radiation just to name, what I'm sure is, only a few showstoppers for an intergalactic trip.

In Aurora, the protagonist actually returns to Earth from a trip to Tau Ceti (or some such place if my memory serves me), which is obviously already a stretch. She suffers from agoraphobia (which I guess, OTOH, is pretty realistic in itself). At the end of the book she attends a meeting where these "science-types" discuss how to improve the endevour for a repeat. This ticks her off enough to punch one of them in the face with the motivation that "she was never asked if she wanted to live confined for her entire life". Add to that the Island effect. Especially it's effects on intelligence and children growing up who doesn't want to take care of a fusion power plant but would rather be artists, which - on Earth is perfectly fine, but on your way to Barnards Star or similar just wont fly.

Now I seem to remember KSR had a political motive when writing his book, but I tend to agree with his conclusion that the Earth is what've got and we better take good care of it, which sadly already seems to have gone out the window in exchange for a quick buck and why not? It's not as if it's gonna be my problem with my limited lifespan. I'm of the opinion that words in the article like "interstellar" is analog click-bait and the problem is soon reduced to "just" getting to Mars and back.

I think it was on The Atomic Rockets Website somewhere that it was mentioned that as long as we can't even build a closed-loop life-support system here on earth we don't stand many chances doing it in the unforgiving vacuum of space.

I didn't address much in the article I'm aware. These was just my first 2 cents on a a first scan. It deserves at least to be read in it's entirety.

 

[Nik_2213]

Unless the mission is short --Alcubierre FTL, with 'Double Bubble' to avert need for anti-matter fuel and oodles of hull Unobtanium ??-- you have the twin issues of keeping a 'restricted' population 'focussed' for several generations, and getting there before an FTL ship can be devised and built...

There's a grim caution about familial commitment, "Clogs to clogs in three generations..."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clogs_to_clogs_in_three_generations
There are many versions of this admonition, all scary...

SciFi provides us with generation-ship collapsing to illiterate savagery, 'Non-stop' by Brian Aldiss.
"Captive Universe" by Harry Harrison, has two genetically engineered clans, isolated by a lethal robotic river monster and a grim religion. They'll stay 'sheeple', dull peasantry, for generation after generation until ship arrives at destination. Then they'll be bid inter-marry, which will un-lock their genes, birth bright kids...

The classic line in 'Dune' that "Institutions Endure" carries weight, here. Snag is institutions may become toxic, spawn heresy or suffer 'palace coups'...

Tangential, consequent loss of skills may doom mission. IIRC, the Byzantines' recipe(s) for 'Greek Fire', their 'Ultimate Weapon', was so closely held that crucial parts were lost to purges and/or coups. Yes, yes, some 'counters' had been developed, mitigating GF's efficacy, but...

Think how eg Coca-Cola or KFC reportedly stored their recipes like a jigsaw puzzle, with different parts in different places. Even with 'paranoid' redundancy, 'Dire Lord Murphy' may strike...

IMHO, modern analogy to Byzantines' loss of 'Greek Fire' would be the US nuclear weapons program discovering they could not make fresh 'FOGBANK' aerogel spacer for new H-Bombs. The old, reliable recipe simply did not work any more. IIRC, this was eventually, expensively established as due to 'modern' reagents being 'much too pure', lacking some vital trace of nigh-catalytic [REDACTED]. IIRC, polyethylene manufacture was initially thwarted thus, resolved by discovery that a trace of oxygen was needed to initiate polymerisation. More reliable catalysts were devised...

 

[sbrothy]

Unless the mission is short --Alcubierre FTL, with 'Double Bubble' to avert need for anti-matter fuel and oodles of hull Unobtanium ??-- you have the twin issues of keeping a 'restricted' population 'focussed' for several generations, and getting there before an FTL ship can be devised and built...

There's a grim caution about familial commitment, "Clogs to clogs in three generations..."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clogs_to_clogs_in_three_generations
There are many versions of this admonition, all scary...

SciFi provides us with generation-ship collapsing to illiterate savagery, 'Non-stop' by Brian Aldiss.
"Captive Universe" by Harry Harrison, has two genetically engineered clans, isolated by a lethal robotic river monster and a grim religion. They'll stay 'sheeple', dull peasantry, for generation after generation until ship arrives at destination. Then they'll be bid inter-marry, which will un-lock their genes, birth bright kids...

The classic line in 'Dune' that "Institutions Endure" carries weight, here. Snag is institutions may become toxic, spawn heresy or suffer 'palace coups'...

Tangential, consequent loss of skills may doom mission. IIRC, the Byzantines' recipe(s) for 'Greek Fire', their 'Ultimate Weapon', was so closely held that crucial parts were lost to purges and/or coups. Yes, yes, some 'counters' had been developed, mitigating GF's efficacy, but...

Think how eg Coca-Cola or KFC reportedly stored their recipes like a jigsaw puzzle, with different parts in different places. Even with 'paranoid' redundancy, 'Dire Lord Murphy' may strike...

IMHO, modern analogy to Byzantines' loss of 'Greek Fire' would be the US nuclear weapons program discovering they could not make fresh 'FOGBANK' aerogel spacer for new H-Bombs. The old, reliable recipe simply did not work any more. IIRC, this was eventually, expensively established as due to 'modern' reagents being 'much too pure', lacking some vital trace of nigh-catalytic [REDACTED]. IIRC, polyethylene manufacture was initially thwarted thus, resolved by discovery that a trace of oxygen was needed to initiate polymerisation. More reliable catalysts were devised...

Oh yeah, it is the SciFi forum....

EDIT: I know this is an old thread so I wont bump it just to make the observation that here, much later and upon rereading the convo I sympathize more with @Nik_2213 ‘s viewpoint than initially.