Turkey Problems: CNN Update on US Ambassador & Iraq Bombing

[kach22i]

Shouldn't this thread be entitled "Problems in Northern Iraq"?

The Anatolia peninsula (modern Turkey), the Eastern Turkey/Western Armenia part (including Mt Ararat where Noah's arc landed) and the northern part of Iraq are the historic lands of ancient Armenia. The mostly nomadic Kurds of the time replaced the Armenians (as reward for their help in killing Armenians) who were ran off their land or murdered in place during the Armenian genocide of 1915.

Call it what you want, the area is deep in history and the history of disputes.

Some old maps on these webpages:

http://www.littlearmenia.com/html/little_armenia/armenian_history.asp

http://www.richardsmith.net/armenia/sako.html

Notice all the "B.C." dates.

 

[J77]

...but I thought the crux of the immediate problem was the Turkish troups going into Northern Iraq, after the PKK.

ie. In Iraqi terms, the North is quite stable. Hence why the US doesn't want any more problems on their already overflowing plate.

 

[kach22i]

...but I thought the crux of the immediate problem was the Turkish troups going into Northern Iraq, after the PKK.

ie. In Iraqi terms, the North is quite stable. Hence why the US doesn't want any more problems on their already overflowing plate.

Well as the edited by mysterious powers the AP story indicated there are already at least 1,500 Turkish troops in Iraq....and GWB has admited they have "been there for a while".

So now the "immediate problem" seems to be a political one between the USA and Turkey and the Kurds and the elected Iraqis in power.

Situation normal AFUA.

 

[EnumaElish]

The Anatolia peninsula (modern Turkey), the western part (including Mt Ararat where Noah's arc landed) and the northern part of Iraq are the historic lands of ancient Armenia.

You mean, the Eastern part. Otherwise you'll need to sort it out with the Greeks.

 

[kach22i]

You mean, the Eastern part. Otherwise you'll need to sort it out with the Greeks.

I did write Eastern.

Good catch, I was thinking one thing and typing another. The correction is in Italics now.

Eastern Turkey/Western Armenia

...and yes the Greeks were all over the place including the middle upper part too. They left some nice ruins, not all of which have been bulldozed away by the Turkish government.

 

[EnumaElish]

...and yes the Greeks were all over the place including the middle upper part too. They left some nice ruins, not all of which have been bulldozed away by the Turkish government.

Or passively left to rot, or expatriated by the British...

 

[russ_watters]

Looks like Turkey is going in!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/17/turkey.iraq/index.html

I can't say I blame them - I wouldn't even say what they are doing is wrong. This is a not-too-uncommon situation where a group is using a country as a staging ground for attacks on a neighbor and that country is doing nothing to stop them. IMO, that gives the country that is being attacked the right to enter the other country to stop them.

IMO, American incursion into countries neighboring Vietnam should have been legal as well (I'm not sure what the law actually says about such things). Same goes for recent American incursions into Pakistan.

 

[Art]

...but I thought the crux of the immediate problem was the Turkish troups going into Northern Iraq, after the PKK.

ie. In Iraqi terms, the North is quite stable. Hence why the US doesn't want any more problems on their already overflowing plate.

The vote in the Turkish parliament is largely symbolic. There have been 23 large scale incursions into N Iraq by Turkish forces since 1997 and they already have a military base in N Iraq manned by 1500 troops which has been there since 1997 so it is hard to see what difference this resolution will make in operational terms.

It seems more designed to elevate the problem of Kurd separatists in the minds of the US and Iraqi gov'ts. Iran has the same problem with the PKK trying to carve a homeland out of it's territory too, with according to Seymour Hersh, US and Israeli backing who see an opportunity to destabilize Iran however this 'support' for a terrorist group is also having an unintended destabilizing effect on Turkey.

 

[J77]

So it's just hype to get everyone in on cracking down on the PKK?

I'm off to Istanbul in a week or so, it'll be interesting to see what the news says up in that small corner of Turkey.

(On another note, I'd love someday to climb Ararat -- an impressive sight!)

 

[kach22i]

So it's just hype to get everyone in on cracking down on the PKK?

I'm off to Istanbul in a week or so, it'll be interesting to see what the news says up in that small corner of Turkey.

(On another note, I'd love someday to climb Ararat -- an impressive sight!)

I know from TV programs that troops are stationed there to prevent rouge or "want-a-be" archaeologist from crawling all over it trying to find evidence of Noah's arc. It's been a source of fustration for scientist and the religious alike.

 

[kach22i]

There have been 23 large scale incursions into N Iraq by Turkish forces since 1997 and they already have a military base in N Iraq manned by 1500 troops which has been there since 1997

Since I have had difficulty in the past finding accurate or verifiable information on this, could you please direct me to a few links to support the statement?

I believe the statements are true, just want supporting data.

Cheers.

 

[Art]

Since I have had difficulty in the past finding accurate or verifiable information on this, could you please direct me to a few links to support the statement?

I believe the statements are true, just want supporting data.

Cheers.

here you are, a cross section from 3 continents http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1018/1192565704859.html

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22600315-1702,00.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-turkey18oct18,1,1987092.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

If you google on the key terms I used in my post you'll find dozens more.

 

[kach22i]

here you are, a cross section from 3 continents http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1018/1192565704859.html

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22600315-1702,00.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-turkey18oct18,1,1987092.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

If you google on the key terms I used in my post you'll find dozens more.

I did a very extensive search back in 2003, I'm tellling you it was like pulling teeth to get any information at all.

I had to register to read the LA Times article, other than that every looks good, thanks.

 

[EnumaElish]

SIRNAK, Turkey - Kurdish rebels ambushed a military unit near Turkey's border with Iraq early Sunday, killing 12 soldiers and increasing pressure on the Turkish government to stage attacks against guerrilla camps in Iraq.

Iraq's president, a Kurd, ordered Kurdish guerrillas to lay down their weapons or leave, but Turkey's deputy prime minister said words were no longer enough: "We are expecting concrete steps from them."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071021/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_kurds

 

[kach22i]

An interesting article from TIME / CNN.

Behind Turkey's Kurdish Problem
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1675165,00.html?xid=rss-topstories
And a Kurdistan is a major red line for Turkey. Even the word is taboo.

 

[hagopbul]

about hrant dink

in the Turkey some time it is a costume to kill some one and escape the punishment by giving the mission to a child or a teenager.i mean that hrant dink is killed by the turkis government.

 

[EnumaElish]

in the Turkey some time it is a costume to kill some one and escape the punishment by giving the mission to a child or a teenager.i mean that hrant dink is killed by the turkis government.

Was he killed by a child or a teenager?

At the end of the day anything's possible; including CIA assassinating John F. Kennedy & Martin Luther King.

 

[kach22i]

in the Turkey some time it is a costume to kill some one and escape the punishment by giving the mission to a child or a teenager.i mean that hrant dink is killed by the turkis government.

The pictures and the way the mater was handled sure did not help appearences much.

Murder trial begins with defence lawyer calling the prosecutors Armenian bastards"! Observe justice in Turkey!
http://www.zimbio.com/Ogun+Samast/articles/12/Murder+trial+begins+defence+lawyer+calling


Hrant Dink's killer: I am not sorry
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5817465.asp?gid=74


murderer of Hrant Dink was treated as a hero with the police officers taking photos with the murderer with the Turkish flag as a backdrop
http://iararat.wordpress.com/2007/02/01/hrant-dink%E2%80%99s-murderer-treated-as-hero-under-arrest/

Scandal in Turkey over photographs of police posing with alleged killer of journalist

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/02/europe/EU-GEN-Turkey-Journalist-Killed.php

ISTANBUL, Turkey: The Turkish media published photographs and video on Friday of police and military police officers posing with the alleged killer of an ethnic Armenian journalist, as newspapers denounced it as "hero treatment" of the suspect.

The photographs show 17-year-old nationalist Ogun Samast, holding out a Turkish flag and posing with officers, some in uniform. Behind Samast a poster with another Turkish flag carries the words of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the revered founder of modern Turkey: "The nation's land is sacred. It cannot be left to fate."

Samast is charged with the Jan.19 killing of Hrant Dink, a 52-year-old ethnic Armenian journalist who had angered Turkish nationalists with repeated assertions that the mass killings of Armenians around the time of World War I was genocide.

The Turkish media was outraged by the photographs and video. "Shoulder to shoulder with the triggerman: suspected killer Samast was given the hero treatment," the Sabah daily reported on its front page.

Pictures - three in series: Killer in middle, police on each side posing.
http://www.amnistia.net/news/articles/genarmen/genarmen800.htm

 

[verafloyd]

I'll chip in. Don't you think that turning the thread into a hate propaganda is equally anti-democratic as what fanatic nationalist Turks do in Turkey? At one hand there are teenagers killing an author for nothing and blaming the people of the same ethnic identity for bearing the same "poisonous" thoughts in their minds, and on the other, there are "fighters of democracy" arrogating the mistakes of limited number of people to a whole nation. This is not democracy. This is just an example of distorting the truth.

Since you're capable of finding links supporting your thesis in Hrant Dink case I wonder how you can miss thousands of people demonstrating against the murderers of Hrant only a few hours after the murder.

How come that you equate Kurds to the PKK and still have not written even a single word about the Kurds killed by the PKK just because they refused to provide supply? I'm having difficulty in understanding why you are not still questioning why the PKK in the past has targeted doctors and teachers working in the region. I wonder how you would define an organisation claiming to fight for the rights of the Kurdish citizens of a country but still feeling ok when poisoning water depots and dams (that feeds a city where the population is dominated by the Kurdish citizens) just to make the military facility run out of fresh water.

No sir. You are not trying to discuss anything. You are doing hate propaganda.

Regards,
verafloyd

 

[kach22i]

I'll chip in. Don't you think that turning the thread into a hate propaganda

I guess you are talking to me, let me say I catch most of what you are saying, while other parts are rather fuzzy.

When "hagopbul" posted that the Turkish government may of had a hand in Hrant Dink's murder I took it upon myself to supply some links which could support that thought and never stated that I was going to open up another can of worms and show all sides or aspects of a story. That would take a book, maybe several.

A crowd of over 100,000 Turks marching in the streets and carrying signs (and not all of them marching were of Armenian descent) saying "We are all Hrant Dink" is inspiring and heart warming to say the least. There is hope, there are good people, good Turks, good Armenians marching together.

The pictures don't lie, sorry they offend you, they offend me too but must be seen as the truth shall be known.

I'm not on the side of the PKK, I'm not on Turkey's side, I wish the world would of let Iraq alone, we all would have been better off.

 

[chemisttree]

Except for the Kurds.

 

[kach22i]

Except for the Kurds.

True, but you have to admit the Kurds had a good thing with the "NO-FLY-ZONE" enforced and Saddam not allowed to take troops into the area for fear of US air strikes.

This is the era which started the Kurds having their own oil money flowing and lots of traffic and trade over the Turkish border.

I think the trade and money flowing between the unofficial Kurdish nation and the Turks is why the Turkish govenment did not want the US to make war on Saddam and use Turkish bases to do so.

Just an observation, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[EnumaElish]

I think the trade and money flowing between the unofficial Kurdish nation and the Turks is why the Turkish govenment did not want the US to make war on Saddam and use Turkish bases to do so.

It seemed like it was a cost/benefit analysis that had "war, disruption & refugees" on the one hand, and "incentives" on the other hand. It was a very close call in the Turkish Parliament, and it lost only by one vote.

High-level Iraqi government officials also had visited Turkey at the brink of the vote; they probably tried to persuade the Turkish government that Iraq did not have WMDs and it was all a pretext to invade Iraq. They may have played the "good neighbors" and "muslim brothers" cards. But it seemed like economic factors played a major role in the end.

 

[verafloyd]

I think the trade and money flowing between the unofficial Kurdish nation and the Turks is why the Turkish govenment did not want the US to make war on Saddam and use Turkish bases to do so.

Just an observation, correct me if I'm wrong.

Not exactly. Erdogan government tried so hard to make Turkey a part of the war or at least provide the help the US needed. The opposition and the 94% of the public were against a war in Iraq. The huge antiwar demonstration held in Ankara with the participation of around one million citizens proved to be the one of the largest act of protest after the 1980 era thus making a great deal of the government parliaments take side with the opposition.

If it were trade and money, the Turkish government would support the US against Saddam as Saddam's authority was a great barricade preventing Turkish companies making business in the region. Not surprisingly, today, since Saddam is gone, the trade life in North Iraq is dominated by Turkish companies.

It seemed like it was a cost/benefit analysis that had "war, disruption & refugees" on the one hand, and "incentives" on the other hand. It was a very close call in the Turkish Parliament, and it lost only by one vote.

Unlike the common belief in the international society, Turkey's attitude towards refugees have been positive. During the First Gulf War, the EU spent $30 million while Turkey alone spent $270 million. Also, the army had its soldiers work actively in building temporary cities for the incoming refugees.

And a not-so-important note: It was not one vote but four :)

High-level Iraqi government officials also had visited Turkey at the brink of the vote; they probably tried to persuade the Turkish government that Iraq did not have WMDs and it was all a pretext to invade Iraq. They may have played the "good neighbors" and "muslim brothers" cards. But it seemed like economic factors played a major role in the end.

Even the US-lover Erdogan government never questioned whether Iraq had WMDs or not. People in Turkey all knew that it was just a lie to invade Iraq for oil. That said, I doubt if the visit you mentioned played a more important role than the demonstration I mentioned above.

EDIT: Typo

 

[chemisttree]

True, but you have to admit the Kurds had a good thing with the "NO-FLY-ZONE" enforced and Saddam not allowed to take troops into the area for fear of US air strikes.

Aw c'mon! Now you're just making stuff up! That second statement just cracks me up!

 

[kach22i]

Aw c'mon! Now you're just making stuff up! That second statement just cracks me up!

Iraqi no-fly zones
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones

What the link above does not tell you is the attacks on ground targets such as convoys by A-10's, F-15's and attack helicopters. There was a case I believe of reporters being killed by mistake in at least one such "friendly fire" incident.

The intent of such air cover was to prevent the slaughter that happened after the first Gulf War under Bush 41/senior. In the south and to the very public and on record urging of George Bush (senior).

NPR did several in depth radio specials on this topic back when Bill Clinton was president.

1991 uprisings in Iraq
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_uprisings_in_Iraq

Although they presented a serious threat to his regime, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was able to suppress the rebellions with massive force and maintain power, as the expected intervention by the United States never materialized. The uprisings were eventually crushed by the Iraqi Republican Guard, followed by mass reprisals and intensified forced relocation of Marsh Arabs, including draining of the marshlands. In few weeks tens of thousands of civilians were killed.

I don't need to make anything up, the truth is quite gruesome enough.

 

[chemisttree]

True, but you have to admit the Kurds had a good thing with the "NO-FLY-ZONE" enforced and Saddam not allowed to take troops into the area for fear of US air strikes.

The no fly zone had absolutely nothing to do with forbidding Saddam from moving military forces into the northern Kurdish areas of Iraq. In fact he did just that. He established antiaircraft positions in the north and south zones and routinely shot at US warplanes patrolling the zone.

According to two State Department reports in 1994 and 1996, the creation and military enforcement of the "no-fly zone" in fact did not protect the Iraqi Kurdish populations from potential assaults by Iraqi forces, which--after crushing the March 1991 rebellion--had pulled back and were focused on post-war reconstruction and protecting the regime in Baghdad. In addition, the straight latitudinal demarcations of the no-fly zone did not correspond with the areas of predominant Kurdish populations, excluding large Kurdish-populated areas which had previously been subjected to air attacks (such as Hallabja) and including predominantly Arab areas which had not been a target of Iraqi government forces. Seeing what had began as an apparent humanitarian effort evolve into an excuse for continuing a low-level war against Iraq, France soon dropped out of the enforcement efforts.

At the end of August 1996, factional fighting broke out between the PUK and the KDP in Iraqi Kurdistan. Concerned about possible advances by the Iranian-backed PUK, tens of thousands of Iraqi forces headed north in an effort to force PUK militiamen out of the key northern city of Irbil. In response, President Bill Clinton ordered a series of major bombing raids and missile attacks against Iraq. Despite concerns over the illegality of this unilateral intervention and the possibility of becoming embroiled in an inter-Kurdish conflict, the American air and missile strikes received widespread bipartisan support in Washington. This supposed rush to the defense of the Kurds may have been just a pretext, however: while the incursion by Iraqi government forces took place in the north, most of the U.S. strikes took place in the central and southern part of Iraq--hundreds of miles from the Iraqi advance.

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4670

The no fly zone in the north was originally authorized by the UN to prevent Iraq from interfering with humanitarian air drops to the tens of thousands fleeing toward the Turkish border. These Kurds were alone in the freezing mountains without shelter having fled persecution in Iraq and were turned back at the Turkish border.

 

[kach22i]

The no fly zone had absolutely nothing to do with forbidding Saddam from moving military forces into the northern Kurdish areas of Iraq.

No massive troop movements would be tollerated and no moving of anti-aircraft missiles.....sounds like "military forces" were limited in their movements to me, very limited.

I'll admit that I don't know the exact language of the resolutions and agreements which were enforced or supposed to be enforced in regards to Saddam. The actual way things were practiced and unfolded are far more telling than pieces of ignored paper anyway.

 

[EnumaElish]

ISTANBUL, Turkey - Kurdish rebels released eight Turkish soldiers in northern Iraq on Sunday two weeks after they were captured in a deadly ambush that intensified pressure on the Turkish government to attack the guerrillas in Iraq.

The release comes on the eve of a meeting between Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and President Bush in Washington to agree on measures against the rebels, and avert a cross-border offensive into a relatively stable part of Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071104/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_soldiers

 

[kach22i]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071104/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_soldiers

"We released these soldiers to make clear that we want to solve the Kurdish problem with peaceful means and methods."

Not the words of a typical "terrorist organization".

Will the PKK keep a low profile until things blow over and then go back to killing Turks?

It's hard to be on either side, hope they can stop killing each other for a while.

 

[verafloyd]

Not the words of a typical "terrorist organization".

And this is "proving" that the PKK is not a terrorist organization? Cool. So basically what you're saying is that it's ok to kill innocent civillians, trade heroin, set villages on fire, foray hospitals and schools to take doctors and teachers out to kill them before the eyes of all the civillians around, destroy the factories in the region, etc. as long as you keep saying the same nursery rhyme "the PKK wants to solve the Kurdish problem with peaceful means and methods", right?

The one and only truth about the PKK is that they were once founded as a political organisation but after 23 years they turned into a giant terrorist organisation responsible for the death of more than 35,000 Kurdish and Turkish people. They don't care about the Kurdish people living in the South-Eastern Turkey.

If they did, they wouldn't damage the development of the region by sabotaging the infrastructure and economically important facilities.

If they did, they wouldn't force the people to give their property holdings to the PKK.

If they did, they wouldn't kill the doctors who heal the people there for free.

If they did, they wouldn't kill the teachers who work hard to take the people of the region to a better future.

If they did, they wouldn't poison the fresh water supplies of a whole city.

If they did, they wouldn't kill the sisters and brothers of Kurdish people who refuse to join that terrorist organisation.

If they did, they wouldn't form mine fields next to the cities.

What the PKK care about is the money as big as $86 million annual that they make out of heroin, weapons and burglary.

You don't agree? Then you tell me what the PKK did for the good of Kurdish people.

 

[kach22i]

And this is "proving" that the PKK is not a terrorist organization?

No, not at all.

The list of terrible things the PKK has been doing is similar to what the Turkish govenment has been doing to the Kurds, so much so that I had to do a double take. Using that logic the USA should declare the current Turkish govenment a terrorist organization.

There are no clean hands in this situation, no right side, no 100% wrong side.

Like I said before I can't be on either side and the whole thing is a shame.

 

[verafloyd]

The list of terrible things the PKK has been doing is similar to what the Turkish govenment has been doing to the Kurds

Excuse me, is it me or are you claiming that the Turkish government has been doing things like sabotaging the infrastructure that it has spent a fortune to built, been killing the doctors and teachers it has raised and sent to the region to heal and educate the people there, been poisoning the fresh water supplies of its own people (and the army for your record), been killing the people who refuses to join -let's say- the army, been forming mine fields next to places where its own citizens live, and been trading heroin?!? :!)

And still you are saying that you're on neither side? How else can someone be on one side! Please don't think that people following this thread are fools or something. You're constantly against Turkey. You certainly have the right to do that. But at least keep to your thoughts.

Also, I'm waiting for your answer to the question I asked in my previous post:

You don't agree? Then you tell me what the PKK did for the good of Kurdish people.

Regards,
verafloyd

 

[kach22i]

First off I never said that the PKK has does any good for anyone.

Secondly NPR has been following the situation for years. Anyone who has turned on their radio may of caught the same news coverage as myself.

In short the Turkish government has...

1. Ordered whole Kurdish villages in eastern Turkey to clear out so that the area may be purged. Wiping entire communities off the map as if they never existed is sanctioned Turkish policy. Sometimes without any warning (middle of the night) the Turkish troops with buldozers have leveled homes with families still in them. If this sounds bad, remember that Isreal has been reported to do the same and the US in Iraq as well. The intent is to eliminate terrorist support network, it's an ugly business no matter who does it.

2. When giving fair warning does not seem to work with the Kurds, the Turks have resorted to blowing up dams to flood an occupied valley killing hundereds in the process. If the govenment wishes to claim/reclaim an area or rid it of Kurds they have the right to do so, or so they tell the western powers.

The list is really too long, I have to get some work done....look it up.

No clean hands on this one like I keep saying.

 

[verafloyd]

Ordered whole Kurdish villages in eastern Turkey to clear out so that the area may be purged. Wiping entire communities off the map as if they never existed is sanctioned Turkish policy.

In my hometown, which is in the Eastern Anatolia, there are at least seven villages next to my village within a range of say 2 kms. 3 of those villages have purely Kurdish population, majority of some other one is Kurdish and in the rest of the villages either the majority is Turkish or Turks and Kurds are in almost equal numbers. None of the Kurdish villages have ever been cleared out as you claimed. Many Kurdish villages have been left by their residents during the era 1984-1997 due to terrorism but what you "forget to mention" -as you always do- is that the Turks had to leave their villages, too. It is not surprising as it's not easy to leave if everyday you have to think what to do when in the middle of the night a PKK terrorist come to your home to ask for food, money, or your boy/girl or they destroy any form of improvement in your city to claim that the government is not working at all despite the fact that the amount of government investment per capita in Northern Turkey is much more lower than that in the east of Turkey.

Sometimes without any warning (middle of the night) the Turkish troops with buldozers have leveled homes with families still in them.

Yeah, then the Turkish troops used their laser guns to blow all that is still alive and then an army of orcs and uruks marched singing songs of victory!

Are you kidding? Are you aware that you are accusing a whole nation with made-up events? Please share with us any evidence you have. Do you really think that 70 million Turks and Kurds would just sit in silence of their home if the Turkish army were to do such an abject thing? What you can't understand is that the Turks and Kurds have been living in these realms for many hundred years in peace. The PKK is a terrorist organisation that have been used by different forces to destabilize the region and destroy the peace. Their revenue of $80 million annual is a proof of that. If the PKK's purpose was to give the Kurds a better future they could have used that money for the good of the Kurds, not for making their leaders richer.

the Turks have resorted to blowing up dams to flood an occupied valley killing hundereds in the process.

Of course! Turkey is such a rich country that blowing dams up to kill people is a nice way to have some fun. I'm now sure that you are actually kidding. Speaking of the dams, you, again, didn't know that the most expensive investment in the history of Turkish Republic is the South-Eastern Project (GAP in Turkish, if you happen to want to google it), did you?. Let me tell before you ask, my friend, it was not a defense project to build the ultimate gun to kill all the Kurds there and left the Turks alive. It is the largest dam in Turkey and thanks to it the south-east of Turkey is now capable of aqueus agriculture (if it's the word). And guess who have kept sabotaging the project for years! (Hint: No, not the government.)

The list is really too long, I have to get some work done

Please don't hesitate to share your made-up stories with us when you finish making up them.

EDIT: I realized that the last 6 posts are by you and me. I don't want to turn this topic into a discussion between you and I only. If you like we can continue the discussion through pms.