Anti-Meson said:The second law of thermodynamics is an empirical law meaning we can't derive it some equations, it is a statement that can only be verified by experiment.
cesiumfrog said:That's not true, it can be derived from statistics (the fluctuation theorem).
If you have a million coins lying on the ground, and randomly choose one of them to flip over, chances are very good that this action moves the distribution closer to 50:50 heads face up. (Do you understand?)
Vanadium 50 said:Anti-meson, that's a tautology - "you can't derive the 2nd law if you restrict yourself to starting points from which you cannot derive the 2nd law." That's completely unhelpful to the OP.
This is twice now that, once your statements have been proven wrong, you have attempted to redefine your way out of your mistake. I would recommend that in the future you chose your words with more care, so we can all use the same definitions. In that way, communication will be facilitated.
Your original words, "..we can't derive it [from] equations, it is a statement that can only be verified by experiment" (period), were false. Now, ex post facto, you ask us to reinterpret those words only from whatever different context in which they would not be false? But now you have the problem that such a context ("purely thermodynamic view" means what exactly?) is ill-defined, and doesn't even address the original question you purported to be answering. (Yes, we don't dispute that historically the precursor to today's modern thermodynamics was originally found empirically.)Anti-Meson said:I don't see where I have committed a tautology[...]
You cannot provide a mathematical derivation of the 2nd law from a purely thermodynamic view - a view that was in the mindset of Clausius, Kelvin, and Planck all of whom originally formalised the second law.
cesiumfrog said:Your original words, "..we can't derive it [from] equations, it is a statement that can only be verified by experiment" (period), were false. Now, ex post facto, you ask us to reinterpret those words only from whatever different context in which they would not be false? But now you have the problem that such a context ("purely thermodynamic view" means what exactly?) is ill-defined, and doesn't even address the original question you purported to be answering.
But enlighten me: How is Max Planck (the person remembered for reapply the approach from statistical mechanics even to light) representative of a viewpoint ignorant of statistical mechanics?
JerryClower said:What is the explanation behind this law? I've read tons of definitions for it and I still can't understand it. Will you please also provide examples for it?
The Second Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental principle in physics that states that the total entropy of a closed system will always increase over time. This means that the energy in a closed system will tend to spread out and become more disordered, rather than becoming more concentrated or organized.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that heat will naturally flow from hot objects to cold objects, and work will always be required to reverse this flow. This is why it is impossible to build a perpetual motion machine, as the energy would eventually become too spread out to be used for useful work.
The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed from one form to another. The Second Law of Thermodynamics adds the concept of entropy, which describes the tendency for energy to become more dispersed and less useful over time.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to living organisms in that they must constantly take in energy and create waste in order to maintain their highly organized and complex structures. This is why all living systems eventually die and must constantly consume energy to survive.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature and cannot be violated or reversed. While it is possible to locally decrease entropy in a system, this always requires an input of work and overall entropy will still increase. Thus, the Second Law of Thermodynamics is an unbreakable rule that governs all energy transformations in the universe.