Understanding the Universe: Exploring Perception and Reality in Science

[brainstorm]

i am not assuming that what's true must be false because of tautology. your logic is saying that what's true COULD BE false because of tautology.

we simply don't know what we don't know. we can't observe what is not observable.

so any topic you want to bring up, i can use your basic logic that you have presented, to cast doubt.

if this universe is not causal, we sure have an awful lot of physics that seems to do a pretty good job of defining a causal universe. and not one iota to suggest non-causality.

Are you able to distinguish between analytical tools and the physicalities they analyze? An analytical tool does not have a truth value in itself. It doesn't make sense to say that "length is true," although it can be true that something is 50cm long. This is why I'm pointing out the logical problem with tautological truth. If length or causality can be applied to anything physical, then it is not true or false in itself. It is only accurately applied or not as a tool. It would be silly to apply causality in some ways, such as asking what the cause of air is. Air in and of itself doesn't have a cause, or rather it could have many different causes depending on what aspect of it you're talking about. Causality isn't something about the universe, it is a way of looking at things that happen.

 

[Upisoft]

Last I checked, the Bell inequalities could still be satisfied by a local/non-causal effect, instead of the more commonly described non-local/causal version of QM.

Entangled particles can get pretty far from each other. Do you have any other idea what "local" may mean?

 

[Maui]

Entangled particles can get pretty far from each other. Do you have any other idea what "local" may mean?

He was saying science could be dead. There is no way to disprove a theory that posits that extremely weird coincidental stuff could happen like that, without a cause. You could only hand-wave it as nonsense.

 

[Upisoft]

He was saying science could be dead. There is no way to disprove a theory that posits that extremely weird coincidental stuff could happen like that, without a cause. You could only hand-wave it as nonsense.

Hand-wave your computer that uses QM effects then.

 

[Maui]

Hand-wave your computer that uses QM effects then.

He wasn't saying QM was somehow wrong. He was simply filling in the knowledge gap with fairy-tales(Neils Bohr belonged to this camp till his dying day). I've seen much worse, though.

 

[Max™]

No, I was pointing out that we can state for certain that the universe has either non-local effects, or non-causal ones. There is no way to describe QM with the assumption of locality and causality intact, it is commonly assumed that giving up causality as we know it would be unworkable, but it still technically remains an option.

Which was in response to the "everything we know is causal" post, it may not be possible to describe QM as a local/acausal theory, but to date we don't know for certain. It does seem possible to describe it as a non-local/causal theory though.

 

[Maui]

For the record Bohr didn't specifically say that there didn't exist causes for what we observe, incl. entangled states, but his own interpretation left little room for an underlying mechanism. What he was thinking in his intimate thoughts is not public, AFAIK.

 

[Max™]

I was more thinking of something in between. Not quite totally sacrificing causality and not totally preserving it. I could see something like that being required if such a suggestion were to be plausible at all. Perhaps extending the uh... hell, there's not really language to describe it well... temporal interaction of particles?

I dunno, but if one were trying to find causal violations, I'd start looking for ways to explain QM using them, myself.

 

[Physics-Learner]

Causality isn't something about the universe, it is a way of looking at things that happen.

have you considered that the way things happen IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE UNIVERSE ?

are you suggesting that the things that we have examined are not causal ?

for example, do you think that the light that comes to us from stars is not causal ? it is not the result of stars burning gases, etc. ?

what i am trying to tell you is that non-causality would basically nullify our physics, as we know it to be. yes, our physics, like most everything else, is a way of looking at things.

to gain any knowledge about anything we need to use tools. if you want to negate tools, then what is left ?

since by your way of thinking, tools are subject to tautology, just what method do you suggest we use to determine these physicalities ?

do you recall me saying (may have been in a different thread) that i am more interested in the way things are than what we measure them to be ? i think we get a distorted view of the universe since we don't see everything at once. can you imagine me looking at your face, and getting different time periods for different areas ? your face would look nothing like it does when i see it all at the same time frame.

we use tools to make OUR DETERMINATION of what the speed of light is. by your way of thinking, we do not know what the physicality, light, actually is. we simply have used our tools to make determinations.

as i stated earlier, we are arms and legs and such if we use our eyes to view ourselves. if we use other means, we could see ourselves as a bunch of internals, or a bunch of molecules, or a bunch of atoms, etc, or perhaps just a bunch of energy.

so making judgments about any physicality depends on the tools used.

causality does not try to make judgments about the physicality itself. it simply states a time frame in which things happen. when i kicked the ball, it then moved. the reason it moved, is because i applied a force to it.

are you suggesting that there is a way to view this chain of events as non-causal ? are you suggesting that there is a way to view the ball moving, but it had nothing to do with me kicking it ? it just moved because it randomly decided to do so ?

so i once again say to you - your logic allows us to claim tautologies for anything we want.

 

[Max™]

4D "block" time is not exactly causal, and relativity means things like saying "the ball moved after my foot hit it" might depend on your reference frame.

There is A-series time, this happened before this which happened before this, and so on.

There is also B-series time, this happened when my clock read 2:30 am, another event happened three years ago at this same date and time, there is an event which coincides with my clock reading 3:00 am, though I can only see one of those at any given point.

 

[Physics-Learner]

hi max,

could you please elaborate ?

 

[Max™]

The arguments about the philosophy of time are numerous, this is just one of many, though I do favor the B-series~C-series type of view myself due to growing up reading about relativity and such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_dimensionalism

A-series and B-series
J.M.E. McTaggart famously argues in his 1908 paper The Unreality of Time that time is necessarily unreal. McTaggart introduces three different types of ordered relations among events: the A-series, the B-series and the C-series. The A-series is “the series of positions running from the far past through the near past to the present, and then from the present to the near future and the far future.” [2] The basic temporal distinctions of past, present and future are fundamental and unique to the A-series as well as essential to the reality of time. If the distinctions of past, present and future are not true of reality, then there is no reality in time. The A-series is championed by proponents of presentism.[2]

The B-series is a series of positions that is ordered from earlier to later. Like the A-series, the B-series contains a direction of change. Unlike the A-series, the B-series does not define a present moment that separates past and future. Events are thought to exist earlier and later, rather than in the past or future. This distinction allows one to move away from the terminology employed in the basic conception of time.[2]

The A-series maintains that time is running from past to future while the B-series asserts that events are running from earlier to later, therefore both require a direction. The C-series, consequently, postulates that events have an order but that there is no inherent direction of time. McTaggart asserts that the order of the events does not necessitate change, a concept that he has already established to be necessary to the concept of time. Therefore, the C-series is atemporal and offers a plausible alternative to the conventional conception of time as well as a part of the concept of eternalism.[2]

Also: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time/

 

[Physics-Learner]

hi max,

i don't get the differentiation between past, future AND earlier, later. to me, it sounds like saying the same thing two different ways. anything in the past is earlier than anything in the future.

i don't think science, as of yet, has a very good understanding of time. according to einstein, it is actually a physical thing, such that matter warps something we call spacetime. and then the matter simply travels along the lines of least resistance.

i just suspect that this is not correct. light takes TIME to get to where it is going. i think this is the major reason for relativity and other thought processes regarding time. if we could "see" the universe in its entirety (i.e. information traveled instantaneously), we would actually understand what the universe actually is. i also suspect that it is a requirement to understand what the universe actually is. and with any physics of which we are currently aware, this is impossible.

so i simply don't think we will ever really understand the entire picture. i think we will always be one of the blind men on the elephant, and viewing only a portion of the universe, and only getting a skewed understanding of the universe.

thank you for sharing.

 

[Physics-Learner]

1) fatalism is certainly wrong. i have the choice to turn right or left on the road, thus controlling the future event of where i will be.

2) boils down to whether time is independent of the motion of matter. i am on the fence with that.

3) aristotle's logic is wrong. there can indeed be a first moment in time. and in fact, it is easily shown that time, as defined in our universe, DEFINITELY HAS A BEGINNING. we could not exist today, as finite beings, if the universe did not have a beginning - because we would have had to wait an infinite amount of time in order to be born.

6) mark me down as a presentist in our universe. i hope that the concept of eternalism is true somewhere in the super-universe.

7) i do not believe that time travel is possible.

8) mark me down as a 3-d man.

 

[Maui]

if we could "see" the universe in its entirety (i.e. information traveled instantaneously), we would actually understand what the universe actually is. i also suspect that it is a requirement to understand what the universe actually is.

You are not asking what the universe is, but what exstence is(by definition the universe is that which is observed).

 

[Physics-Learner]

hi maui,

i disagree.

it is utter arrogance on our part to think that the universe is what we observe it to be. the universe is what it is, whatever it is. the fact that we have no means to observe it in its entirety at any given instance just means that we are limited in our tools for understanding the universe.

perhaps our tools will become better over the future eons, i don't know.

 

[Maui]

i also suspect that it is a requirement to understand what the universe actually is.

[bolding mine]



What the universe truly is, is the same as what existence is. To know what the universe actually is in its entirety, you'd have to contrast it to something(i.e. non-existence). Hence your question becomes about existence.

it is utter arrogance on our part to think that the universe is what we observe it to be.

That wasn't my point.

if we could "see" the universe in its entirety (i.e. information traveled instantaneously), we would actually understand what the universe actually is.

What if seeing the universe in its entirety would reveal to you that the universe is a set of relationships that manifest into definite, physically observable being after a series of measurements and interactions, would you call that "understanding"? Our human logic seems too black-and-white to accommodate certain notions and it's much more likely that after you "see" what the universe actually is, you wouldn't gain any understanding at all.

 

[Boy@n]

Maui, I find your thoughts holding quality.

I'd just add that perhaps Universe is nothing per-se in actuality, but it forms and changes in corenspondende of counsiousness viewing it.

 

[Physics-Learner]

hi maui,

we seem to be arguing semantics, regarding existence. but it seems to me that one could contrast the universe to any physical thing in the universe, so at least by my defintion of "existence", i am not talking about existence, per se.

in order to stop the car, one must take his foot off the accelerator, before applying it to the brake pedal. if seeing the universe in its entirety would be too complex for us to understand, it would still be a better understanding of what it actually is, than we have now.

at least we would not be so high falootin about how much we know - LOL !

 

[Boy@n]

Physics-Learner, you want to know about vast Universe, what it actually is, how it works, etc. and I wonder, did you figure out already who you are, really?

 

[Physics-Learner]

i guess it would depend on your definition of "figuring out already who one is" ?

to what degree does this have anything to do with the topic on hand ?

we are discussing what the universe is. yes, i would like to know what it actually is, instead of what we think it is, based upon our limited perceptions and tools with which to observe the universe.

 

[Boy@n]

My point is, that we don't even know 'who am I', considering that ourselves is the closest think we could know, so, knowing Universe seems like very difficult if not impossible task (for our current ability and capacity of understanding via human brains).

My personal view is that what Universe actually is, is not that important as knowing how it functions and what is its purpose.

Universe is simply a place to be, a place for who we really are, and so 'who am I' is the most important question I'd say, moreover, once we know that knowing Universe might be a piece of cake.

 

[Physics-Learner]

good thoughts - i thought you were just trying to be a smart alec - LOL.

sure, on an everyday aspect, how it functions is more important than what it is.

its purpose ? we don't have any chance of getting beyond our black box universe to get to the super-universe.

"understanding" what it really is "might" help us to better understand how it functions ?

 

[petm1]

Big bang is a view from outside our universe, after all 13.7 billion years ago our visible universe appeared as a singularity relative to our now. If you could step back far enough either in space or time, they behave the same, you could see our visible universe as one time contained within one space but What good would it do you?

 

[Physics-Learner]

hi petm1,

could not tell if your statement was directed at me, or just the thread itself.

but you hinted at 2 separate items.

1) what the super universe is ?

2) what our universe is ?

both are interesting to me. i know i won't get an answer to 1. i doubt if i will get an answer to 2. that doesn't stop my desire to know, though - LOL.

if heaven exists, i think that this understanding will be a source of happiness or contentment for us. it may be what allows us to become completely self aware.

 

[qsa]

hi petm1,

could not tell if your statement was directed at me, or just the thread itself.

but you hinted at 2 separate items.

1) what the super universe is ?

2) what our universe is ?

both are interesting to me. i know i won't get an answer to 1. i doubt if i will geMy theory t an answer to 2. that doesn't stop my desire to know, though - LOL.

if heaven exists, i think that this understanding will be a source of happiness or contentment for us. it may be what allows us to become completely self aware.

What is reality

My theory QSA (quantum statistical automata) explains that. The theory is 100% information theory. Moreover, I derive the theory from the postulate that “Reality is nothing but math”. Well, if it is, then, I should be able to create it myself, and I was able to. To design a dynamic universe there are not too many things you can do really, many other choices either lead to similar results or to unstables structures or not so interesting ones. But the looks of the details all these other choices seem to have unatainable status,i.e. nature does not work that way.

So, I start with a line (an axis) The simplest and probably the only thing you could do is to throw two RANDOM numbers, one denotes position and the other the length of a line not exceeding the original line(the size of my universe). Applying a simple constraint on these random numbers the solution to Schrödinger’s particle in a box appears like magic,i.e. sin^2.

Not to keep you all in suspense before I continue, ENERGY is nothing but the length of this line (actually 1/L), which is nothing but your usual momentum K, although here it appears geometrically. All interactions (forces) arise naturally from simple logical relationships of these lines belonging to different particles. My website has not included many new findings including the famous 1/r law, but can be seen from fig.2. which mimics Hydrogen 1s energy level. In some respect, no energy means no space defined.

This theory goes very well with Smolin’s comment that particles as end of lines should be studied and Joakim’s(google) linking entropy (verlinde’s) to the wavefunction and twister theory with Kerr which considers particles as end of lines.

So, in my theory the universe appears NATURALLY, because numbers and their relationships are the ultimate truths and they are the only things that exist. What else could it be?

check my profile for details

 

[qsa]

The idea has been on the tip of my tongue so to speak for years, but when I finally had the time to think about it more seriously I was able to implement the program in a couple of hours. That is because just like reality itself I had not too many choices.

While this method is unconventional, nowadays physics also points in this direction. So no more there is a need for a meta-metaphysical gymnastics. And no need to panic, reality is logical just like any typical event around us.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1011.1657

Physics from information

Authors: Jae-Weon Lee
(Submitted on 7 Nov 2010)

Abstract: This is an ongoing review on my conjecture that information processing at causal horizons is the key ingredient of all physics.
Assuming that information is fundamental and the information propagates with finite velocity, one can find that main physical laws such as Newton's second law and Einstein equation simply describe the energy-information relation (dE=TdS) for matter or space time crossing a causal horizon with temperature T for observers. Quantum mechanics arises from ignorance of the observers about matter crossing the horizon, which explains why superluminal communication is impossible even with quantum entanglement. This approach also explains the origin of Jacobson's thermodynamic formalism of Einstein gravity and Verlinde's entropic gravity. When applied to a cosmic causal horizon, the conjecture reproduces the observed dark energy and demands the zero cosmological constant.

 

[Maui]

Assuming that information is fundamental and the information propagates with finite velocity, one can...

Assuming that information is fundamental means that reality is mind-dependent. Information is a quantity that belongs to minds only. You will need a completely new kind of physics(mind mechanics) if a TOE is ever to be accomplished.

 

[qsa]

Assuming that information is fundamental means that reality is mind-dependent. Information is a quantity that belongs to minds only. You will need a completely new kind of physics(mind mechanics) if a TOE is ever to be accomplished.

The information we are talking about is in the sense of "Information as data communication "
as in statistical physics. We are modelling how nature works and why. We use the same techniques to study how the mind functions.TOE is the problem of unifying gravity with other forces, nobody (even the crackpotiest of them all) has suggested that mind enters into the equation. However, you could use some philosophical underpinning to motivate an idea leading to a solution. Maybe you have your own idea of what the definition TOE should be, and trying to solve all of physics and consciousness in one swoop, I wouldn't know were to start.

 

[brainstorm]

trying to solve all of physics and consciousness in one swoop, I wouldn't know were to start.

It's not that you want to explain consciousness and physics both as external objects. It's that you want to identify the fundamental cognitive-experiential basis that causes humans to perceive and interpret all physical observations according to certain essential logics that make them seem comparable. With the Bohr model, it is easy to see that there might be some consciousness-based reason that makes celestial motion appear comparable to that of atomic particles. Ideally, the physical models we have of these scales of micro- and macro- level phenomena are accurate independently of our cognitive ability to model them, but you have to consider that they may not be, too, no?

 

[petm1]

hi petm1,


1) what the super universe is ?

2) what our universe is ?

1. If you are talking about a "super universe" that you would see as if standing out side looking in? That is the view I have while conscious, the same view that let's me interact with matter and keeps my present moving along with everyone else, I think of it as my one second frame.

2. In my mind it is still one dilating area.

 

[qsa]

It's not that you want to explain consciousness and physics both as external objects. It's that you want to identify the fundamental cognitive-experiential basis that causes humans to perceive and interpret all physical observations according to certain essential logics that make them seem comparable. With the Bohr model, it is easy to see that there might be some consciousness-based reason that makes celestial motion appear comparable to that of atomic particles. Ideally, the physical models we have of these scales of micro- and macro- level phenomena are accurate independently of our cognitive ability to model them, but you have to consider that they may not be, too, no?

It is the mathematics of both system, since both have velocities and forces acting. And at best they describe very crude approximation for the electrons behavior through the Kepler laws, nothing like the 12 digit accuracy of the QED.Of course bohr himself won the argument with Einstein about that nothing is strange with QM. As for the accuracy we have experiments and the mathematics of the system has to be consistent. I think the issue is more like David Bohem's book

wholeness+and+the+implicate+order google and read last chapter.

He makes a heroic argument for consciousness and matter. But for these days of quantum gravity it is just an interesting read nothing more. Many attempts to link consciousness and QM have basically come to nothing much, even Gambini's free will stunt.

 

[Physics-Learner]

1. If you are talking about a "super universe" that you would see as if standing out side looking in? That is the view I have while conscious, the same view that let's me interact with matter and keeps my present moving along with everyone else, I think of it as my one second frame.

2. In my mind it is still one dilating area.

yes, that is what i am talking about as well.

if we could be on the outside, looking in - determining exactly what it is.

 

[Maui]

The information we are talking about is in the sense of "Information as data communication "
as in statistical physics

Quantum theory doesn't claim what is fundamental. 'Data communication' is a meaningless term in the abscence conscious minds. When you say that information/data communication is fundamental, you are actually saying that mind is fundamental as they are tied in a bundle(one cannot exist without the other).

We are modelling how nature works and why. We use the same techniques to study how the mind functions.TOE is the problem of unifying gravity with other forces, nobody (even the crackpotiest of them all) has suggested that mind enters into the equation. However, you could use some philosophical underpinning to motivate an idea leading to a solution. Maybe you have your own idea of what the definition TOE should be, and trying to solve all of physics and consciousness in one swoop, I wouldn't know were to start.

Crackpotish or not, all you are suggesting by "information is fundamental" is that mind enters into the equation. You just need to take some more time to think about the fundaments of your theory.

 

[Physics-Learner]

i like the sphere example, because i think it may be very telling of our own situation.

the flatlanders on a surface area at any radius see no boundaries. they are expanding from a singularity, but that singularity is not part of their universe. it is at the center of the sphere, a dimension beyond their knowledge.

likewise, i suspect that we volume landers are part of a super universe with a 4th spatial dimension. whether there are more than 4, i have no thoughts.

i don't see time as that sort of dimension. time is just as necessary for a flatlander to move in his world, as it is a volume lander to move in our world. it is still an unknown to me, but i do not think it is the 4th dimension that einstein thinks of it as.

and as i have previously stated, if information was instantaneous, i think our ideas about time would change drastically.

time and motion are tied together in some way, but it may be beyond our ability to understand it at its most basic level.