US Bans Travelers from Certain Muslim Countries

[Buckleymanor]

Maybe we should just wait for another 9/11, then maybe the protesters will not be so concerned about the inconveniences of other people. I remember a few days after 9/11 I was scheduled to meet with someone from Pakistan at my place of employment in the US. He was of course was unable to make it because of travel restrictions. I'm sure there were many travel inconveniences at that time but I don't remember any protests.

No I meant like the above after no major incidents.
Can you now see why there was no protests?

 

[Bandersnatch]

Or do you mean that it only becomes a random act when it goes from being issued by Obama to being issued by Trump?

Wasn't the earlier one a bill attached to a must-pass omnibus spending bill that was pushed by a republican-dominated Congress, and criticised for interfering with Obama's Iranian nuclear deal vs this being an actual executive order?
I'd say it's entirely unfair to say that Obama issued the former.

 

[Prideful]

Wasn't the earlier one a bill attached to a must-pass omnibus spending bill that was pushed by a republican-dominated Congress, and criticised for interfering with Obama's Iranian nuclear deal vs this being an actual executive order?
I'd say it's entirely unfair to say that Obama issued the former.

Not only that, but apparently he missed that, probably many times here and other places this has already been brought up and the difference is that at that time it was in response to a recent terrorist attack.

 

[TurtleMeister]

Wasn't the earlier one a bill attached to a must-pass omnibus spending bill that was pushed by a republican-dominated Congress, and criticised for interfering with Obama's Iranian nuclear deal vs this being an actual executive order?
I'd say it's entirely unfair to say that Obama issued the former.

I didn't know that. But it does seem reasonable and likely that such an action would be initiated by the republicans and not the Obama administration. I stand corrected. However, I initially took Buckleymanor's post to infer that it was Trump who chose the 7 countries.

Not only that, but apparently he missed that, probably many times here and other places this has already been brought up and the difference is that at that time it was in response to a recent terrorist attack.

Sorry about that. I've been busy recently and haven't had time to keep up with the thread. I'd rather not wait for another terrorist attack to justify better security. But I'll have to read through the tread and see what was said before posting again.

Carry on with the Trump bashing :)

 

[zoobyshoe]

I'd rather not wait for another terrorist attack to justify better security.

Prideful got the story garbled. The Obama reaction was not to a terrorist attack on US soil. It was in response to the misnamed 'bowling green massacre,' which was actually:

Terrorism-related arrests in Bowling Green

In 2011, two Iraqi men who entered the country as refugees were arrested in Bowling Green, Kentucky.[2] They were charged with federal terrorism because they had attempted to send both money and weapons to al-Qaeda in Iraq.[1][3] They were convicted of supporting attacks on U.S. troops while they were still in Iraq as well as attempting to provide material support to al-Qaeda in Iraq after they had moved to the United States.[3] Arrests were made on various charges including "attempting to provide material support to terrorists and to al Qaeda in Iraq."[1]

Before entering the U.S., both had used improvised explosive devices (IEDs) in Iraq,[4] although this had not been known at the time of their admission to the United States. The men both pleaded guilty; one is serving a life sentence while the other is serving 40 years in federal prison.[3] The two men never attacked anyone in the United States,[2] and there was no evidence that the men had traveled back to the Middle East or had any contact with ISIS after being admitted to the United States. Neither of the two was ever charged with plotting attacks inside the United States.[4]

As a direct response to their arrests, the administration of President Barack Obama re-vetted 58,000 refugees already in the country, imposed vetting on 25,000 other Iraqi citizens still in Iraq, and significantly tightened the processing of Iraqi visa/refugee applications for six months.[5] Obama also instituted a requirement for new background checks on visa applicants from Iraq; as a result, Iraq travel visas were issued more slowly.[6] The changes in visa verification were temporary, and some Iraqi refugees continued to be admitted to the United States throughout the period.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Green_massacre

Very "bad hombres," yes, but there is no evidence they were even planning any attacks in the US.

In my opinion, Obamas reaction was very good. It focused the energy and effort right where the problem was and did not involve a draconian ban.

The Obama reaction and it's evolution are pretty complex.
The WP gives Trump's claim Obama first identified the 7 countries "two pinnochios," :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ies-in-his-travel-ban/?utm_term=.a43d80429d7f
Politifact declares Priebus' similar claim to be "half true," :
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...-nations-identified-donald-trumps-travel-ban/

 

[Bandersnatch]

Prideful got the story garbled. The Obama reaction was not to a terrorist attack on US soil. It was in response to the misnamed 'bowling green massacre,' which was actually:

Oh, I think you've got your story garbled, though.
It was Trump's ban that was being justified by the 'bowling green massacre'.
The earlier bill was launched in response to 2015 Paris attacks, and not by Obama.

 

[Buckleymanor]

Sorry about that. I've been busy recently and haven't had time to keep up with the thread. I'd rather not wait for another terrorist attack to justify better security. But I'll have to read through the tread and see what was said before posting again.

Every one wants better security what the problem is how you implement it.
No one want's to wait for another attack or to have one but if preventing an attack means also attacking the very thing you are trying to protect then it defeats the objective.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Oh, I think you've got your story garbled, though.
It was Trump's ban that was being justified by the 'bowling green massacre'.

Yes, you're right: the Kellyanne Conway justification.

The earlier bill was launched in response to 2015 Paris attacks, and not by Obama.

Again, you're right. I misunderstood Obama's reaction to the Bowling Green arrests to be the origin of what was "improved" later, in 2015.

In 2014, then-Rep. Candice S. Miller (R-Mich.) proposed a law to pressure participants in the program to share intelligence data. But, after the 2015 Paris attacks, her proposal was adjusted to tighten the rules for people from those countries if they had visited Syria or Iraq or were dual citizens of those countries. Specifically, the change would have required an in-person interview for a visa if a person had traveled to Iraq or Syria after March 2011. As Miller noted, “Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the suspected mastermind of the horrific attacks in Paris, was a citizen of Belgium — a participant of the U.S. Visa Waiver Program.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/02/07/trumps-claim-that-obama-first-identified-the-seven-countries-in-his-travel-ban/?utm_term=.853140bc0bc4

 

[mfb]

Yes, you're right: the Kellyanne Conway justification.

Trump: Hold my beer

Trump Appears to Make Up a Non-existent Terror Attack in Sweden

President defends his travel ban in Florida rally by referring to 'what's happening last night in Sweden.' Swedish government Twitter account responds: 'Main news right now is about Melfest' – a Eurovision song contest qualifier.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Trump: Hold my beer

I looked through the news and, so far, can't find any explanation from the WH as to what Trump was referring to. I also watched the tape of the rally where he says this, and it really does sound like he believes there was a terrorist attack in Sweden the night before the rally.

 

[Buckleymanor]

Another report of the incident http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jk-rowling-tributes-donald-trump-sweden-terror-attack_uk_58a98bc6e4b045cd34c28a4b?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=1607969725_uk
It is embarrassing unless there is some kind of project fear he is working on.
I suppose if he keeps banging on about incidents of any description one will happen eventually.
Then he can lambast the judiciary and protest that his stance was justified all along.
He has already shown that is what he believes.
I don't like to imagine the outcome of events if that happens.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

I looked through the news and, so far, can't find any explanation from the WH as to what Trump was referring to. I also watched the tape of the rally where he says this, and it really does sound like he believes there was a terrorist attack in Sweden the night before the rally.

Maybe he was trying to justify the Bowling Green "massacre". That is, Kellyanne Conway wasn't totally wrong, just prescient. The Bowling Green massacre just happened in Sweden, in a warmer part of the the country famous for its whiskey and race horses (and they're covering it up)..

 

[zoobyshoe]

I would assume there is effort underway at the White House right now to produce a rational sounding explanation for this utterance. Given the delay, it is probably proving to be a hard problem. I'm wondering if they'll try to go into full attack mode on the media.

 

[Aufbauwerk 2045]

I am certain something did happen in Sweden last night. Something is always happening in Sweden.

 

[Aufbauwerk 2045]

Sorry, I just noticed I made a mistake. The Swedes posted an article listing everything that happened that fateful night.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a...-happened-in-sweden-friday-night-mr-president

Apparently not much happens in Sweden.

 

[TurtleMeister]

Trump's remarks about Sweden, I think, originated from the Tucker Carlson Tonight show which aired on 2/17/17. If you look it up on YouTube, go to 20:22 for the segment on Sweden. I'm wondering if Trump may have fell victim to something he himself has been complaining about, fake news. I have no idea how accurate this segment of the show concerning Sweden is. No one is more critical of the media than TurtleMeister. In my opinion if Trump wants to be taken seriously he needs to stop trusting these sources, even when they tell him what he wants to hear.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Trump's remarks about Sweden, I think, originated from the Tucker Carlson Tonight show which aired on 2/17/17. If you look it up on YouTube, go to 20:22 for the segment on Sweden.

I watched it. There's only a mention of what was described as Sweden's first terrorist incident "not long ago." No mention of anything on Friday (02/17/17). So much for Trump's "source".

 

[zoobyshoe]

"Donald[/PLAIN] J. Trump
✔@realDonaldTrump
My statement as to what's happening in Sweden was in reference to a story that was broadcast on @FoxNewsconcerning immigrants & Sweden.
1:57 PM - 19 Feb 2017"

So, when he said, "You look at what's happening last night in Sweden..." he actually meant something like, "You look at what FoxNews said last night about what's happening in Sweden..."

He created fake news just by virtue of the fact he's extremely inarticulate. He can spout strings of words that have only a remote relationship to what he means to say, and not notice it.

 

[Aufbauwerk 2045]

I think we have all said things that were not quite what we meant. President Trump has explained what he meant. Of course when you are President of the USA, every word is examined. People will continue to use your mistake against you, even after you have explained yourself. So it does pay to be extra careful.

I wish the media would give it a rest, and move on to issues of real importance. This is not a partisan statement. I have my own political views, which do not fit into any party at this time. I think we get a distorted view of both mainstream parties thanks to the twisted media. Some of them are really sick people. This is why I no longer watch TV. Their sickness makes me sick just watching them.

 

[Evo]

I think we have all said things that were not quite what we meant. President Trump has explained what he meant. Of course when you are President of the USA, every word is examined. People will continue to use your mistake against you, even after you have explained yourself. So it does pay to be extra careful.

I wish the media would give it a rest, and move on to issues of real importance. This is not a partisan statement. I have my own political views, which do not fit into any party at this time. I think we get a distorted view of both mainstream parties thanks to the twisted media. Some of them are really sick people. This is why I no longer watch TV. Their sickness makes me sick just watching them.

We expect the President to EDIT "use his brain" and not take something that was given to him with "Fox News" as the only source, and even that's not clear. We would expect the President to push back and say, "What is this? I can't say this! Get me more information!" That's what we, as the American people expect from our President. So far, it's not happened.

 

[StevieTNZ]

I wish the media would give it a rest, and move on to issues of real importance.

Like Trump shouldn't spend 70 odd minutes ranting about the press, and do something constructive to help the US?

 

[StevieTNZ]

We expect the President to have a brain and not take something that was given to him with "Fox News" as the only source, and even that not clear. We would expect the President to push back and say, "What is this? I can't say this! Get me more information!" That's what we, as the American people expect from our President. So far, it's not happened.

I would hope he starts doing that from... NOW! Should have been at the beginning.

Look at him going off about how many electoral votes he got. Something along the lines of "the highest in history"? Yeah right. Oh, confronted with the facts. "Something I was told." CHECK YOUR INFORMATION! plane @ simple

 

[NTL2009]

We expect the President to have a brain and not take something that was given to him with "Fox News" as the only source, and even that not clear. We would expect the President to push back and say, "What is this? I can't say this! Get me more information!" That's what we, as the American people expect from our President. So far, it's not happened.

We should expect this from the media also, but we don't get it.

It is rather extreme to equate an apparent "shooting from the hip" statement at a rally, to "not having a brain". I'm not sure what else to say about that, but I'm thinking it's not in keeping with the spirit of the forum rules, and certainly does not contribute to meaningful discussion.

 

[Evo]

We should expect this from the media also, but we don't get it.

It is rather extreme to equate an apparent "shooting from the hip" statement at a rally, to "not having a brain". I'm not sure what else to say about that, but I'm thinking it's not in keeping with the spirit of the forum rules, and certainly does not contribute to meaningful discussion.

Obviously he has a brain, so I edited my post, you are right.

A day after falsely suggesting there was an immigration-related security incident in Sweden, President Donald Trump said on Sunday his comment was based on a television report he had seen.

Trump, who in his first weeks in office has tried to tighten U.S. borders sharply for national security reasons, told a rally on Saturday that Sweden was having serious problems with immigrants.

"You look at what's happening last night in Sweden," Trump said. "Sweden. Who would believe this? Sweden. They took in large numbers. They're having problems like they never thought possible."

No incident occurred in Sweden and the country's baffled government asked the U.S. State Department to explain.

"My statement as to what's happening in Sweden was in reference to a story that was broadcast on @FoxNews concerning immigrants & Sweden," Trump said in a tweet on Sunday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-sweden-idUSKBN15Y0QH

People are blaming the media for Trump's lack of truth or substance in what he says, it's just mind blowing.

 

[Aufbauwerk 2045]

You people make some valid points. My point though is specifically about the role of the media. I think they have been a very destructive force in US politics for many years, because of their bias, dishonesty, sensationalism, and carelessness. This is true in my opinion for any of the media, whether left or right wing. If we want things to get better, we need the media to become more truthful. Then people will believe them, and politicians will not get away with calling them liars. Thanks and good night for now. I can only take so much of this politics.

 

[NTL2009]

...
People are blaming the media for Trump's lack of truth or substance in what he says, it's just mind blowing.

The way I see it, Trump needs to accept the blame for any misstatements he makes, and the media needs to accept the blame for any misstatements that they make. I'm not following your statement about the "people blaming the media" for what Trump says?

 

[Evo]

The way I see it, Trump needs to accept the blame for any misstatements he makes, and the media needs to accept the blame for any misstatements that they make. I'm not following your statement about the "people blaming the media" for what Trump says?

Just read David Reeves' posts for an example. Trump says the media can't be trusted, he calls them "Fake News" and people believe him. Not all media is 100%, but they surely are not responsible for all of the things that Trump comes up with.

 

[NTL2009]

Just read David Reeves' posts for an example. Trump says the media can't be trusted, he calls them "Fake News" and people believe him. Not all media is 100%, but they surely are not responsible for all of the things that Trump comes up with.

That still seems twisted.

Trump has made false statements (though not to the extent many think, much has been taken out of context, or cherry picked).

And the media absolutely has dished out fake news, and worse is the more subtle form, twisting, out of context, inferences that don't exist, etc. I don't get the problem of Trump calling out fake news where it exists - he should.

A free press is important, but they need to maintain standards, or they aren't living up to their responsibility.

 

[Evo]

That still seems twisted.

Trump has made false statements (though not to the extent many think, much has been taken out of context, or cherry picked).

And the media absolutely has dished out fake news, and worse is the more subtle form, twisting, out of context, inferences that don't exist, etc. I don't get the problem of Trump calling out fake news where it exists - he should.

A free press is important, but they need to maintain standards, or they aren't living up to their responsibility.

I haven't seen him calling out any fake news, please site some for me. Or did you mean, if it ever were to happen, he should?

 

[NTL2009]

I haven't seen him calling out any fake news, please site some for me. Or did you mean, if it ever were to happen, he should?

?
Didn't you just claim exactly that?

If you want /need specific examples and links, I will provide them, tomorrow - it's past my bedtime, g'night!

 

[Evo]

?
Didn't you just claim exactly that?

If you want /need specific examples and links, I will provide them, tomorrow - it's past my bedtime, g'night!

I said he called any news he disagreed with fake news, not that he actually proved any were fake or even remotely wrong. Tomorrow is fine. Have a good night.

 

[StevieTNZ]

I said he called any news he disagreed with fake news, not that he actually proved any were fake or even remotely wrong. Tomorrow is fine. Have a good night.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Trump has made false statements (though not to the extent many think, much has been taken out of context, or cherry picked).

Trumps lies are enormous, and he continues to repeat them after they've been debunked many times over. "Millions voted illegally," being the most infamous. There was also his claim the media somehow faked the pictures of his inauguration crowd size, and then there's the oft repeated one about his having had a "landslide" electoral win. You can google for the very long lists of his lesser known lies. It is the petty nature of these insistent lies that is most disturbing. They demonstrate adolescent cravings for being "the best," having "the most." He is an embarrassment to the US. Abroad he's mocked and reviled by countries that are our allies! For two days now he's been the biggest joke in Sweden.

When a reporter wrote that Trump had removed the bust of Martin Luther King from the White House, it turned out to be a stupid error: he simply couldn't see it because someone was standing in front of it. Trump cried "Fake News!," to the high heavens for that. So, I think, no mercy for Trump. He gets no mercy for errors and outright lies that end up generating "fake news." To the extent he got any of the people at the rally riled up over that thing that happened "last night in Sweden" because of his inability to coherently express what he means, he should really be issuing a public apology. That's obviously not going to happen.

 

[mfb]

"What happened in Sweden" turned out to be a Fox News report (which actually happened in the US).

It is the petty nature of these insistent lies that is most disturbing.

Exactly. Lie about a nuclear program of some country: Bad and with bad consequences, but at least I can see the motivation behind it. Lie about something trivial and as easy to check as election results: Okay, we cannot trust any statement from that person.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Who would be so stupid to have a publicly visible connection to anyone linked to a terror organization?

Actually there's a lot of research going on right now to track links to terrorism on social media.

-Dave K