USA's Moral Obligation to Spread Democracy: Thoughts?

[russ_watters]

The US and other democratic countries should spread democracy if for no other reasons than pure self-interest. Democracies never goes to war against each other. If the whole world was democratic most military spending could be cut. Not to mention problems like attacks by nukes or other WMD.

This is true, but I also really do care about the genocide in the former Yugoslavia, the people lowered into plastic shredders in Iraq, the genocide in Rwanda, the famine and war in Somalia, the current genocide in Rwanda (that the UN is ignoring), etc.

Come on guys, don't you realize that this "moral duty to spread democracy" is only an excuse to invade other countries for economic reasons?

I have a hard time understanding why people believe this shallow piece of demagogy.

The truth is, we don't really care. I'm not ready to give up my comfortable way of life, and neither are you, so let's cut the nonsense and assume that we are immoral, period.

Speak for yourself, Ludwig - you don't speak for me and you don't speak for the leaders of our country (Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Somalia, Hati, etc contain no economic interests for the US) Sure, I care about my money - but I honestly do care about the people I listed above. And as a former member of the military, I was willing to fight and risk my life to help them.

As a visitor to the museum though, I felt quite relieved I'm not American. I wouldn't be able to bear the shame.

I'm going to ignore Burnsys's irrelevant distraction, but I couldn't let this go. Shame of what? Winning a defensive war with tactics that overall were more humane then our enemies? Causing Japan to, in less than 30 years, become a top economic power and a stable democracy? No, I'm proud of our overall actions in WWII and the atom bombs cause me no shame - they don't stand out as any worse than other bombings. You do know how many died in Tokyo the night it was fire-bombed, right...? Dresden?? London?

I have heard this argument a lot of times, but I never saw anyone offer the actual number they have in mind. So instead of 100,000 farmers, students, and housewives, how many soldiers would have died had the US invaded Japan?

Your characterization is misleading, since both cities were industrial, but the answer is the projections were in the millions - that's soldiers and civilians, as well as half a million American soldiers. Remember, the Japanese were none too protective of their own civilians (and indeed, many civilians comitted suicide rather than be captured).

 

[selfAdjoint]

The House of Representatives in the US is not chosen by proportional representation. The two requirements, that the number of representatives be capped at 500, and that every state have at least one representative, means that the single representative from a thinly populated state is elected by far fewer voters than one of the several representatives from a populous state. Futhermore the states have nearly absolute control over the detail of the electoral districts, leading to gerrymandering which further distorts the one-man-one-vote principle.

Proportional representation is used in various European countries, and notably in Israel, where it has had rather poor results (amplified power to splinter parties). But I don't think it's used at all in the US. One form of it is that the various parties each field a slate of candidates for the legislature. In the election each slate captures a certain fraction of the votes. Then the parties can return a number of candidates from each slate in proportion to the fraction of the vote they took. So minority parties get some representation from every district.

 

[the number 42]

Originally Posted by the number 42
1/ Just because YOU think something is good, does this give you the right or obligation to impose it on everyone else? Why can't we 'do unto others as THEY would have us do unto them'.

Do what our enemies want us to do? They want us to die.

So you think all others are enemies of the US?

Originally Posted by the number 42
2/ The US is hardly a shining example of the will of the people being reflected by its government. Leaving half of the population of the States seething for want of a decent president hardly demonstrates the spirit of democracy.

Excuse me? That's the definition of democracy!

Lets talk about the spirit of democracy, not a mathematical definition. I'm not a political scientist, but as far as I can tell democracy was designed as an alternative to kings, popes, & their henchmen. The idea was that the will of The People is represented by those who govern them. Note: not HALF The People. Call me naive for thinking that you can get, say, two thirds of voters to agree on having a single party as leader, but the fact that many elections that use a 'first past the post' system have yeilded governments which a minority of voters have endorsed suggests that this system fails to represent The People. After the Bush/Kerry election a slim majority of the people are deliriously happy, but a large minority of the people are very unhappy. I don't think this fairly represents the will of people i.e. thwarts the spirit of democracy.

Originally Posted by the number 42
3/ PR means 'proportional representation'. I get the impression that nobody in the US has ever heard of this voting system, let alone sersiously consider it.

Have you heard of the US House of Representatives?

The HoR also uses the first past the post system, merely reproducing the problem state-by-state instead of nationally. I take it that you are refusing to consider PR as a better way of representing the will of the people?

 

[Ludwig]

Speak for yourself, Ludwig - you don't speak for me.

So have you considered trading down your car and sending the money to a few desperate African families? No? Why not?

And as a former member of the military, I was willing to fight and risk my life to help them.

So you are willing to risk your life, that's very noble. How about donating 30% or your net income to help poor people around the world? It's much less of a sacrifice than giving your life, don't you think? You could still buy a lot of useless stuff with the 70% left, while a few families would be able to have two nutritious meals a day for the first time in their lives.

Shame of what? Winning a defensive war with tactics that overall were more humane then our enemies?

I do not have anything to add to this. My country was never involved in wars of any kind, so I can't really relate to this feeling that winning a war is something to be proud of. In my country, we are very proud of the fact that we never engaged in one.

if everyone did what the US does (instill democracy), the entire world would look like western europe. I consider that a good thing, and I wager the vast majority of those in 3rd world countries would like a piece of that prosperity as well.

Now do you know that the fastest-growing economy in the world is China, a communist dictatorship? And did you know that many Latin American countries experienced tremendous growth in the 70's, under strict military dictatorship, and when democracy was installed in the 80's they went down a slump from which, to this day, they have not yet recovered? Being interested in wars, perhaps you might recall that Germany emerged from a deep economic crisis after Hitler's ascension to power? You certainly learned in school that the Soviet Union changed from a rural society into an industrialized one in less than a decade, a real miracle, during Stalin's regime?

Oh, you didn't know those things? Well, that would explain your senseless remark above.

 

[Rader]

How does it implly that the US spreads immoral ideas?

If you examine the quote: The United States has a moral obligation to spread Democratic ideals in other nations, this has one very fundamental implication to examine. Morality is choice to do good, to others, in consideration, as if you would make that choice to act upon yourself. A moral obligation implies, that what you are spreading is moral. A moral obligation to spread immoral principles besides being illogical, is a contradiction.

So are democratic ideas morally correct? A democracy is a system where, all individuals have equal rights, within the system good and evil, is tolerated, so long as a manmade set of laws, by that system, is not broken. Therefore morality and immorality coincide within the system. A democracy is not a "Utopian Moral Code."

Morals are like logic, It seems they have a value from 0 > 1, and everything in between, depending on which human interprets them. But if you read much history, you will notice a subtle change, over what appears to us, as a long time. If you could graph this change in knowledge you would see a valley of cycles, that when a strait line might be drawn through them, you would find a slight increase in good over time. This is the way we perceive the world, the way it ought to be.

Democratic governments are moral (as a form of government) and the US spreads democracy. I see no contradiction.

I hope you understand now where the contradiction is. Cause from your posts it seems that we are in agreement, how the world ought to be, but not in agreement how governments interpret how the world ought to be.

 

[Aquamarine]

Now do you know that the fastest-growing economy in the world is China, a communist dictatorship? And did you know that many Latin American countries experienced tremendous growth in the 70's, under strict military dictatorship, and when democracy was installed in the 80's they went down a slump from which, to this day, they have not yet recovered? Being interested in wars, perhaps you might recall that Germany emerged from a deep economic crisis after Hitler's ascension to power? You certainly learned in school that the Soviet Union changed from a rural society into an industrialized one in less than a decade, a real miracle, during Stalin's regime?
.

Regarding democracy and economic growth, studies give conflicting results between no effect and a positive effect. But not a negative effect. There have been democracies that have become less capitalistic and therefore have had lowered growth, like in some countries in Latin America. But in general, democracies are more capitalistic than dictatorships.

Regarding Germany, the economic miracle was essentially that Hitler put all unemployed into the military or into making weapons. At the time of WWII, the German state was essentially in bankruptcy due to enormous debts.

Regarding Soviet, the communists built an industry and military with the use of slave labour, tens of millions of dead, starvation and declining living standards. Stalin may have increased production in a few areas like steel and tanks but at the cost of the rest of the economy.

Regarding China, the country is certainly no less democratic than before. And it is not communistic dictatorship anymore, it is a capitalistic dictatorship.

 

[Aquamarine]

So have you considered trading down your car and sending the money to a few desperate African families? No? Why not?

So you are willing to risk your life, that's very noble. How about donating 30% or your net income to help poor people around the world? It's much less of a sacrifice than giving your life, don't you think? You could still buy a lot of useless stuff with the 70% left, while a few families would be able to have two nutritious meals a day for the first time in their lives.

I do not have anything to add to this. My country was never involved in wars of any kind, so I can't really relate to this feeling that winning a war is something to be proud of. In my country, we are very proud of the fact that we never engaged in one.

Which country is that?

Regarding foreign aid, here are some interesting links:
http://www.lp.org/issues/foreign-policy.html
http://www.aworldconnected.org/article.php/302.html

 

[russ_watters]

So you think all others are enemies of the US?

We don't just invade countries because we don't like their governments, you know... we envade because the governmentss are our enemy or the enemy of people we care about (such as the people of those countries).

Let's talk about the spirit of democracy...

Your understanding of "the spirit of democracy" is incorrect: it is accepted in a democracy that you can't make everyone happy all the time.

The HoR also uses the first past the post system, merely reproducing the problem state-by-state instead of nationally. I take it that you are refusing to consider PR as a better way of representing the will of the people?

The way the House is populated is a hybrid of proportional representation. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that you can have two winners in an election or that the result of a vote can make all the people happy. That isn't real life. Even if we went with the popular vote for president, there can be only one president - up to just under half of the population will have voted for the loser. Every vote has a winner and a loser.

For representatives, the best way to approximate proportional representation is to chop up districts homogenously. That way, you could end up with more people being happy about the outcome of each election for a representative - but you still won't please everyone.

 

[russ_watters]

So have you considered trading down your car and sending the money to a few desperate African families? No? Why not?

Get off your high horse. You don't know me. Greed may be the only thing driving you, but it isn't the only thing driving me.

I do not have anything to add to this. My country was never involved in wars of any kind, so I can't really relate to this feeling that winning a war is something to be proud of. In my country, we are very proud of the fact that we never engaged in one.

Are you Swiss? You are aware the Swiss neutrality is a lie, right?

Now do you know that the fastest-growing economy in the world is China, a communist dictatorship?

Quite right - since it has moderated to embrace capitalist ideals. See: Hong Kong.

And did you know that many Latin American countries experienced tremendous growth in the 70's

Any government can cause short-term growth. The only way to sustain stable, long term growth is capitalism. Read this carefully: No other form of government/economics has produced the prosperity/stability that capitalism/democracy has.

...perhaps you might recall that Germany emerged from a deep economic crisis after Hitler's ascension to power? You certainly learned in school that the Soviet Union changed from a rural society into an industrialized one in less than a decade, a real miracle, during Stalin's regime?

Yes, and how did things work out in the long-term for those countries? There is a reason neither exist today.

 

[russ_watters]

So are democratic ideas morally correct? A democracy is a system where, all individuals have equal rights, within the system good and evil, is tolerated, so long as a manmade set of laws, by that system, is not broken. Therefore morality and immorality coincide within the system. A democracy is not a "Utopian Moral Code."

Interesting interpretation, but I see it a different way: democracy (as practiced in the west) is the form of government that enables the protection of individual rights, and that is what makes it the most moral.

You're talking about the morality of the people, I'm talking about the morality of the government.

 

[Ludwig]

Get off your high horse. You don't know me. Greed may be the only thing driving you, but it isn't the only thing driving me.

So are you going to make that donation to Africa or not?

I'm trying to make a point here, but you think I'm riding a high horse. Perhaps I'm being too sarcastic; what I'm trying to say is that you don't have to worry about the problems of the world. But if you are going to help people in need, I think giving them money to help them with their basic needs is far more important than bombing their cities to free them from their governments, only to subject them to your own.

But don't take my word for it; ask them! Ask a few Iraqis whether they would prefer if the "coalition of the willing" had donated the billions of dollars they spent "promoting democracy" to help poor Iraqi families. I'm quite sure of their answer, but perhaps you have a different opinion.

Are you Swiss? You are aware the Swiss neutrality is a lie, right?

The world has 258 countries. Try again.

(hint: don't take "Ludwig" as a clue, it's not my real name, just the name of someone I admire)

Quite right - since it has moderated to embrace capitalist ideals. See: Hong Kong. Any government can cause short-term growth. The only way to sustain stable, long term growth is capitalism.

I find it ironic how capitalists resort to mindless propaganda just as often as communists did. No wonder they hated each other so much: two of a kind!

Read this carefully: No other form of government/economics has produced the prosperity/stability that capitalism/democracy has.

I read it carefully. Thanks for the one-line lesson in history, sociology, and macroeconomics. Can I go back to my books now?

Yes, and how did things work out in the long-term for those countries? There is a reason neither exist today.

A thousand years from now, the United States will probably no longer exist. Maybe it will be split into several nations, maybe it will be conquered or destroyed by fanatical Muslims, maybe it will simply collapse on its own weight, like the Roman Empire did. Surely that implies the American system is not good, right? It might seem good for you, but historians of the future will definitely disagree.

But the real issue is, how come your piece of capitalistic propaganda found its way to a discussion of morality in a philosophy forum?

 

[hitssquad]

After the Bush/Kerry election a slim majority of the people are deliriously happy

Bush received votes from 58.6 million people, which is 20% of the population of the United States. A slim majority would have been 150 million votes.

 

[the number 42]

We don't just invade countries because we don't like their governments, you know... we envade because the governmentss are our enemy or the enemy of people we care about

You invade countries because you care about the people there? Very idealistic. I don't suppose you can think of any exceptions to this?

Anyway, you miss the point. I was attempting to hightlight the fallacy of presuming that just because YOU think something is right for you, that it therefore follows that it is right for and desired by others. The term 'others' (as in 'do unto others') seems to have been confused with the word 'enemy'. To clarify, by others I mean anybody outside the US, friends/foes/gardeners etc.

Your understanding of "the spirit of democracy" is incorrect: it is accepted in a democracy that you can't make everyone happy all the time.

A much less idealistic response this time. I didn't say EVERYONE; I mentioned a figure of two thirds, but that's just off the top of my head. But if you really think that 51% of people being happy and 49% feeling angry is a good system, I think your understanding of what makes for a stable society is well off the mark. But where was the third alternative to Bush or Kerry? Nobody would vote for this person as this might 'split the vote' - how are people going to get satisfaction from this sort of system?

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that you can have two winners in an election or that the result of a vote can make all the people happy.

This one again. The day I say that everyone can be happy is the day I invent a way of making Prozac come out of your computer screen.

Every vote has a winner and a loser.

This sounds like something you would tell a child. A bright child might answer: "Only if its a two horse race, Daddy". The average kid just rolls over and sleeps like a baby.

 

[the number 42]

Bush received votes from 58.6 million people, which is 20% of the population of the United States. A slim majority would have been 150 million votes.

Good point.

My figures are very approximate
http://www.theodora.com/wfb/united_states_people.html
but if you adjust for voting population you get more like 100 million for the slim majority of voters. I guess if you look at it in terms of voters only, its a only 60 million Bush voters to 140 million non-Bush voters, about 80 million of whom can't have voted in this election?

But if these figures are roughly correct, then what is all the talk about a large voter turnout? I presume I have got it wrong here somewhere. "There are lies, damn lies, and soundbites", as they say.

 

[kouga]

This sounds like something you would tell a child. A bright child might answer: "Only if its a two horse race, Daddy". The average kid just rolls over and sleeps like a baby.

r u implying that there can only be one winning 'free' country and the rest should be ignored and left to fend for themselves?

 

[kouga]

LUDWIG STATED THAT: I'm trying to make a point here, but you think I'm riding a high horse. Perhaps I'm being too sarcastic; what I'm trying to say is that you don't have to worry about the problems of the world. But if you are going to help people in need, I think giving them money to help them with their basic needs is far more important than bombing their cities to free them from their governments, only to subject them to your own.


so ur telling me that if thousands of thousands of people are being killed by the government that, we should give the government killing them more money do u really think that a government that is killing its own people will use that money for them or for its weapons?

 

[Ludwig]

This sounds like something you would tell a child. A bright child might answer: "Only if its a two horse race, Daddy". The average kid just rolls over and sleeps like a baby.

Internet forums are funny. You get PhDs talking to high-school dropouts, seniors talking to adolescents, computer programmers discussing philosophy, ex-soldiers discussing morality... what a zoo

 

[kouga]

Internet forums are funny. You get PhDs talking to high-school dropouts, seniors talking to adolescents, computer programmers discussing philosophy, ex-soldiers discussing morality... what a zoo

so wat would u fit in with this forum u call a zoo??

 

[russ_watters]

Ludwig, if you want to have a reasonable discussion, start making reasonable arguements. I won't play your games and won't respond to your rhetoric.

You invade countries because you care about the people there? Very idealistic. I don't suppose you can think of any exceptions to this?

Certainly there are exceptions. The US isn't perfect (I'm not in charge yet ).

Anyway, you miss the point. I was attempting to hightlight the fallacy of presuming that just because YOU think something is right for you, that it therefore follows that it is right for and desired by others. The term 'others' (as in 'do unto others') seems to have been confused with the word 'enemy'. To clarify, by others I mean anybody outside the US, friends/foes/gardeners etc.

Fair enough, but I base my opinion on some pretty objective critereon: economic prosperty, security, stability, and protection of individual rights. If you can provide an historical example (preferably one that exists today) that tops the US/the West in those categories, please do.

This sounds like something you would tell a child. A bright child might answer: "Only if its a two horse race, Daddy". The average kid just rolls over and sleeps like a baby.

Ok, you've said the same thing half a dozen times in several different ways. I know what you're tying to say - how about substantiating it? Give me an example (hypothetical is fine).

Elections and votes are binary. Your horse race example, as you imply it, is an inaccurate description of a horse race and an inaccurate description of politics: in a horse race, only one horse wins. The rest lose. This presidential election, for example, had 5 horses in it (on my ballot, anyway). Only one is can be president next year, no matter how the votes are counted.

Perhaps you are talking about a system of representatives where maybe 6 people run and the top 3 get elected: well, that's still binary. Each candidate either gets elected or s/he doesn't. Or how about an olympic trial - the top 3 move on to the next round. But that's still binary: either you move on or you don't. The top 3 are winners, everyone else, losers.

But if these figures are roughly correct, then what is all the talk about a large voter turnout?

Its relative: It is "large" compared to the last election, the election before that, the election before that, the election before that, the election before that, the election before that, the election before that, the election before that, the election before that, and the election before that.

 

[russ_watters]

Bush received votes from 58.6 million people, which is 20% of the population of the United States. A slim majority would have been 150 million votes.

That's some great rationalization. Saying it that way implies the other 62% of the country (including the children) would have voted for Kerry. How did you spin it when Clinton won with 43% of the popular vote?

 

[Canute]

The only way to sustain stable, long term growth is capitalism. Read this carefully: No other form of government/economics has produced the prosperity/stability that capitalism/democracy has.

This is so far from the truth I had to comment. Try reading Marshall Salins at Uni. of Chicago. Modern industrial societies are nowhere near as successful at creating prosperity and stability as primitive ones. The US model cannot be sustained long-term, and is only sustainable now by continual intervention, very often armed, in the affairs of other nations. Mind you, I suppose if by prosperity you mean money, and by stability you mean the impossibility of wresting back political power from the major corporations, then you may be right.

 

[the number 42]

r u implying that there can only be one winning 'free' country and the rest should be ignored and left to fend for themselves?

Uh, no. I have no idea how you got the impression that I meant to say this.

 

[the number 42]

I base my opinion on some pretty objective critereon: economic prosperty, security, stability, and protection of individual rights. If you can provide an historical example (preferably one that exists today) that tops the US/the West in those categories, please do.

Economic prosperty, security, stability, and protection of individual rights cannot be spread by the US to other countries, as these things exist in the US at the expense of other countries. Think about this before you reply.

Your horse race example, as you imply it, is an inaccurate description of a horse race and an inaccurate description of politics: in a horse race, only one horse wins. The rest lose. This presidential election, for example, had 5 horses in it (on my ballot, anyway). Only one is can be president next year, no matter how the votes are counted.

Serves me right for working with children and animals to make my point. No matter what metaphor you use, its a simplistic winner takes all system. This is probably great for groups where an alpha male is all that is needed, but for more developed cultures, how about a system in which the aspirations of all are represented, at least to some degree. What we have at present is a situation where a minority of the voters (though a majority of the voters who turned out to vote) have all the say. This wouldn't be such a big deal execpt that almost as many voters (and perhaps many of the people who didn't vote) are really unhappy about this. Seriously, don't you think there is something even a little bit problematic about this?

Perhaps you are talking about a system of representatives where maybe 6 people run and the top 3 get elected: well, that's still binary. Each candidate either gets elected or s/he doesn't. Or how about an olympic trial - the top 3 move on to the next round. But that's still binary: either you move on or you don't. The top 3 are winners, everyone else, losers.

Binary shminary. I'm not talking about anything of the sort. Try to clear your mind of this 'winners Vs losers' fixation before you reply.

 

[Ludwig]

No matter what metaphor you use, its a simplistic winner takes all system. This is probably great for groups where an alpha male is all that is needed, but for more developed cultures, how about a system in which the aspirations of all are represented, at least to some degree.

It's my impression that a truly representative system, such as Parliamentarism, would not fit well with the American mind. I may be speaking out of ignorance, but Americans seem very enamored of heroes and superheroes. They like to see one man, one individual, fight a personal battle for the common good. It's part of their culture, from the early days of the pilgrims who had to face a hostile environment without much help, and prospered doing it.

Which is probably the reason most foreigners don't understand how an uneducated and ignorant man like Bush can be elected President. Most foreigners can't relate to his facial expressions and verbal utterances of defiance against what he perceives as evil. Many Americans, it seems to me, see a lot of heroism in it.

(this is in no way a criticism of anything, just a passive observation)

 

[selfAdjoint]

The Kiersey personality breakdown predicted the election. Here is quote from their newsletter:

Each person develops a self-image and habits appropriate to his or her temperament. Thus, Artisans like George W. Bush base their self-image on grace, audacity, and adaptability to circumstance. Or, Idealists, like John Kerry, base their self-image on empathy, benevolence, and authenticity

The other two basic types are Guardian and Rationalist. They note that in US presidential elections, Artisans beat every other type, and the next best, assuming there's not a major party artisan running, is Guardian. Kerry is the only Idealist to make it past the primary in modern times.

 

[russ_watters]

the number 42, if you have an argument to present, please do. You keep asserting that I'm wrong, but you have yet to explain and support your position. I won't keep discussing this on an uneven playing field: you have to give a little bit too.

Economic prosperty, security, stability, and protection of individual rights cannot be spread by the US to other countries, as these things exist in the US at the expense of other countries. Think about this before you reply.

[this applies to Canute too] I recognize that a lot of people believe this. Well, a lot of people are wrong. The facts simply do not support it: the global GDP is not fixed, it is increasing. Global poverty levels are not fixed, they are decreasing. The number (percentage) of people living in prosperous, secure, stable countries (a la western Europe or the US) is not fixed, it is increasing.

A lot of people see the fact that a lot of progress remains to be made and mistakenly conclude that that means no progress has been made. It doesn't.

 

[russ_watters]

The Kiersey personality breakdown predicted the election. Here is quote from their newsletter:

Do you have a link to that? It looks intriguing

 

[the number 42]

You keep asserting that I'm wrong, but you have yet to explain and support your position.

I'm not sure that I have kept asserting that you are wrong, but it strikes me that we sometimes seem to be discussing different points.

I recognize that a lot of people believe this. Well, a lot of people are wrong. The facts simply do not support it: the global GDP is not fixed, it is increasing. Global poverty levels are not fixed, they are decreasing. The number (percentage) of people living in prosperous, secure, stable countries (a la western Europe or the US) is not fixed, it is increasing

Hmmm. The poor are getting richer? The poor are more free, happier? If you feel obliged to export democracy, bear in mind that the current US brand relies on making profitable deals with other countries. We can't all be rich - who'd mow the lawn or take care of the kids? Who'd grow our coffee and make our trainers? And is there any such thing as democracy when our minds are used to dealing only with slogans not policies, and when the only things we feel are knee-jerk responses to media manipulation? Do you really think the rest of the world want to have a slice of what passes for democracy in the US?

Seriously Russ, take some time out and have a think about these things.

 

[russ_watters]

Seriously Russ, take some time out and have a think about these things.

Quite frankly, it appears to me that you're spending too much time thinking you're right when you should be looking at the facts that show that you aren't. The things you say sound logical and reasonable to someone with your worldview, but they bear little relation to reality.

 

[bross7]

Every country is "democratic" is some fashion. If you are saying that everyone should be like the US then no, I do not agree with that whatsoever. Europe is significantly different than North America, should we impose American ideals on England? Sweden? Finland?

 

[Smurf]

This thread is bugging the hell out of me

 

[the number 42]

Quite frankly, it appears to me that you're spending too much time thinking you're right when you should be looking at the facts that show that you aren't. The things you say sound logical and reasonable to someone with your worldview, but they bear little relation to reality.

Hmmm. Can't argue with that, Russ. Good answer.

 

[Smurf]

Ahh! I can't take it anymore, I have to say something. Start with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Japanese navy had already been obliterated, it had a population of several million on a few small islands which were blockaded by the American Navy. I believe the nuclear bomb was a better alternative to an invasion which would have resulted in almost one million casualties on both sides.

It was still un necessary, the japanese had been talking about sueing for peace since midway, but Roosevelt's 'unconditional surrender' policy was rejected by Japan, however they were willing to sign a conditional surrender.

Yes you can make the argument that America couldn't accept a conditional surrender for various reasons, but the Japanese only had a single condition before the bomb was dropped, and that was to keep Hirohito, the Emperor... Which MacArthur let them keep anyway. This is one example of America's history of reckless diplomacy.


I think it was a scare tactic for the Soviets, who didn't get the bomb until August 29, 1949, And it wasn't a defensive war for the USA - both sides were the aggressors, but that's another story.

 

[the number 42]

I'm glad you got that off your chest, but is dropping bombs on people the same as dropping democracy on them?

 

[Smurf]

no but that's the thing that was bugging me the most, I'll write about democracy tomorrow, good night.