Using Destructive Interference to Treat Tinnitus

[erobz]

How difficult would it be to send destructive interference sound wave into an ear via hearing aid device, which cancels a ringing frequency/amplitude only I can hear. Do the patient need to just consciously say I don't hear the tone to the doctor when they apply a destructive tone, or do they need to monitor anxiety/brain function physiological response somehow over a extended period. My feeling is that it's basically steady frequency, with increasing amplitude as the day progresses. I guess I'm kind of worried that the brain can temporarily trick itself into believing the ringing is gone, but ultimately be unable to maintain the trick.

How would you set up a medical experiment to isolate the tone/frequency I think I hear, that is in-audible to the rest of the world?

 

[BillTre]

There are more than one way to produce these kind of symptoms.
You would want to have a diagnosis of the problem before treating it.

 

[erobz]

There are more than one way to produce these kind of symptoms.
You would want to have a diagnosis of the problem before treating it.

I get that, but I feel it's being underestimated.

 

[BillTre]

I get that, but I feel it's being underestimated.

See a hearing doctor.
They should take it seriously.

 

[erobz]

Perhaps my own doing as I think downplayed it initially. I've got to be frank I don't trust the doctors because they can't write down an equation.

I guess I'm having trouble understanding how the medical field untangles a problem without writing it down in a systematic analysis that I would attempt. It seems like trial and error, but the doctor says they don't like to do tests as not to waste time... To me it sound like excess of confidence. As an engineer I do whatever test I can. I don't understand the methodology used by the medical profession. How does it not help to run every test one can think of.

 

[BillTre]

Medical stuff is not all equations and equations are not going to answer all medical questions.

Just of the top of my head (don't take this seriously as a medical diagnosis) the causes could be as different as some neurological problem (brain tumor of epilepsy for example) or a problem with the hair cells in the inner ear (possibly more of a mechanical sound source).

They would probably work through a flowchart of tests and positive or negative conclusions to narrow things down to a possible cause and follow it up with more tests to confirm the diagnosis or not. I would count that as a systematic analysis.

 

[erobz]

Medical stuff is not all equations and equations are not going to answer all medical questions.

Just of the top of my head (don't take this seriously as a medical diagnosis) the causes could be as different as some neurological problem (brain tumor of epilepsy for example) or a problem with the hair cells in the inner ear (possibly more of a mechanical sound source).

They would probably work through a flowchart of tests and positive or negative conclusions to narrow things down to a possible cause and follow it up with more tests to confirm the diagnosis or not. I would count that as a systematic analysis.

The problem is the pcp stated they don't like to do unnecessary testing so as to not waste patients' time/money. I would never say that to a "problem". There are a lot of problems that don't have equations until you write them down and find a pattern in them. The thing is I don't have any idea of what they are doing. I highly doubt they are graphing anything. I was asked to make a sleep chart, none of the docs have ever asked to produce it.

 

[erobz]

One of my engineering professors said his pcp said that they dropped out of engineering because it was too hard! I've been ruined ever since!

 

[BillTre]

Don't know what pcp is.
I like to pursue questions I have with doctors until I get answers.
However, I know a lot of biology and have a PhD and let them know that.
I have some friends that I go to the doctors with to help them understand doctor talk and to ask questions.
If the doctors are not responding well to my questions, I look for another.

One of my engineering professors said his pcp said that they dropped out of engineering because it was too hard! I've been ruined ever since!

You are over-reacting in my opinion. There is always some thing that is too hard for different people.
But don't use his doctor.

 

[berkeman]

How difficult would it be to send destructive interference sound wave into an ear via hearing aid device, which cancels a ringing frequency/amplitude only I can hear.

I have a similar issue that I need to discuss with my PCP and probably get a referral to an ENT doc. I don't think there is any way to null it out actively, since the high pitch tone is internal to the inner ear and brain.

Let's talk to our docs...

 

[erobz]

Don't know what pcp is.
I like to pursue questions I have with doctors until I get answers.
However, I know a lot of biology and have a PhD and let them know that.
I have some friends that I go to the doctors with to help them understand doctor talk and to ask questions.
If the doctors are not responding well to my questions, I look for another.


You are over-reacting in my opinion. There is always some thing that is too hard for different people.
But don't use his doctor.

pcp - its acronym for family doctor. Personal Care Provider I believe.

 

[berkeman]

Primary Care Provider or Primary Care Physician.

 

[BillTre]

Sounds like a drug to me!

 

[erobz]

I don't think there is any way to null it out actively, since the high pitch tone is internal to the inner ear and brain.

We need precise way to measure anxiety...there are a bunch of physiological markers that come to mind.

 

[berkeman]

Sounds like a drug to me!

LOL. I also learned that acronym in an EMS leadership class as "Praise, Correct, Praise". We all looked at each other when considering the acronym...

 

[erobz]

LOL. I also learned that acronym in an EMS leadership class as "Praise, Correct, Praise". We all looked at each other when considering the acronym...

I think Dr House has me disillusioned!

 

[BillTre]

We need precise way to measure anxiety...there are a bunch of physiological markers that come to mind.

For zebrafish, you can measure the amount of cortisol they release into their tank water as an anxiety indicator.

 

[berkeman]

I think Dr House has me disillusioned!

LOL, you don't need Dr. House. My Google searches have been pretty informative. For me, it's not tinnitus, it is a different issue.

 

[erobz]

For zebrafish, you can measure the amount of cortisol they release into their tank water as an anxiety indicator.

I did get that checked, but mind you this is now 3/4 of year. I was just on the border of yellow at the time I was checked. Other marker for pheochromocytomas came back negative. I was hoping for testing of brain tumor because of the sudden onset of loud ear ringing in January. I think its neurological, hook me up or look for abnormal proteins. Of course when this all started happening I thought I had familial-fatal-insomnia ( A prion disease)... It hasn't been ruled out yet...they laughed it off, but I haven't slept without drugging myself since February!

I thank you guys for just letting me talk about it for a minute. I even told my pcp that I can't seem to bring myself to solve math and physics problems...I think they are going to set me in a padded room for sure!

 

[BillTre]

LOL, you don't need Dr. House. My Google searches have been pretty informative. For me, it's not tinnitus, it is a different issue.

That would be Dr. Google!

 

[BillTre]

If you aren't getting relief or your symptoms are getting worse your go back to your doctor or find another.
I would think that the same goes for your anxiety.

 

[erobz]

If you aren't getting relief or your symptoms are getting worse your go back to your doctor or find another.
I would think that the same goes for your anxiety.

Thanks, I think I needed to hear this. The nervous system is a real physical thing, if it's acting up there is a physiological reason...somewhere. All I want to know is that I'm not unreasonable for thinking this. If a solution is beyond my time in this era that's that, but I would just like an answer put to me that way.

 

[erobz]

That would be Dr. Google!

Dr. Google will also tell you anything you want to hear... Dr. House would tell me to shut up you imbecile!

 

[erobz]

For zebrafish, you can measure the amount of cortisol they release into their tank water as an anxiety indicator.

Is there a lead/lag in cortisol release in the fish? I ask because I got a single test in the morning, which is the time of day that I feel practically normal (as long as the combinations of pharmaceuticals worked). Did they stay elevated if the fish is not currently feeling stress by other behavioral measures?

Does cortisol just accumulate in the tank if the fish was stressed at some point in the cycle, or is the measurement a rate related concentration change of cortisol? The tank basically a closed system, or is the cortisol filtered out of the tank like it would seem to be in the body via urine.

 

[BillTre]

Is there a lead/lag in cortisol release in the fish?

Probably. You would have to look at the technical literature.
You are really interested in people which would have different collection/measring techniques (see a doctor).

Does cortisol just accumulate in the tank if the fish was stressed at some point in the cycle, or is the measurement a rate related concentration change of cortisol? The tank basically a closed system, or is the cortisol filtered out of the tank like it would seem to be in the body via urine.

It probably breaks down in tank water at some rate.
Water from an isolated and unfiltered tank would be more able to accumulate more cortisol.

With zebra (and other) fish, there are a series of increasingly less invasive and less stressing collection methods:

• whole body: homogenize a whole fish and measure, highly intrusive a fatal
• blood draw: small amount, difficult to perform, stressor
• scales: small amount, stressor
• feces: easy to collect, non-stressing
• water: easy to collect, non-stressing

Lead and lag times would vary.
Any kind of handling/netting of the fish would stress them unless they were anesthetized first.

 

[gleem]

Perhaps my own doing as I think downplayed it initially. I've got to be frank I don't trust the doctors because they can't write down an equation.

It's the only game in town for medical issues. Having worked with physicians I have developed a strong respect for their profession. If medicine were amenable to equations we would not need physicians.
The complexity is enormous. The problem with tinnitus is that it is very common and can have many causes some of which are very serious. Stop self diagnosing.

When you do not get satisfaction for your conditon you must take responsibity and intiative to find a solution especially for the sudden onset of any condition that interferes with your normal activities. I think the best specialist to see is is an otolaryngologist ( ENT Doc) asap.

 

[Eukonidor]

Perhaps my own doing as I think downplayed it initially. I've got to be frank I don't trust the doctors because they can't write down an equation.

I guess I'm having trouble understanding how the medical field untangles a problem without writing it down in a systematic analysis that I would attempt. It seems like trial and error, but the doctor says they don't like to do tests as not to waste time... To me it sound like excess of confidence. As an engineer I do whatever test I can. I don't understand the methodology used by the medical profession. How does it not help to run every test one can think of.

Two reasons that they do not do lots of tests: 1) MOST people presenting a particular set of symptoms have one of a small group of problems and can be resolved with a small bit of trial and error of known treatments.

But the far greater reason is that many possible medical tests cost tons of money, and people tend to lose their minds when presented with a 6-figure medical bill when the likelihood is that 95% of the tests were pointless. And then the insurance companies get involved and bring a lot of pressure to bear on the medical professional to not do any more testing than absolutely necessary.

 

[Lupin]

I really like this question. You might be on to something.
I have a Garmin Forerunner 265s with a heart rate monitor strap. One of the many functions it monitors is "Stress." That value is calculated from Heart rate, HRV (Heart Rate Variability) and probably other inputs. The time resolution is about 4 minutes. If I am watching a comedian on TV my stress reading drops. When my Brother in Law brings up politics my stress reading goes up. When I drink 1/4 of a glass of wine my stress reading goes up because my HRV goes down. It is that sensitive.

I have mild tinnitus that sounds like a constant 4-6 kHz ringing. It does not bother me enough to increase my stress, however. Maybe a brain stem reading would be more accurate.
I am a runner and wear Shokz bone conducting headphones that do not send sound through the ear canal. It might be worth trying an experiment of sweeping frequency with the Shokz until you hear something similar to your tinnitis and then sweeping phase to see if it cancels. That test would be relatively free.

I'm going to keep thinking about this.

 

[erobz]

I really like this question. You might be on to something.
I have a Garmin Forerunner 265s with a heart rate monitor strap. One of the many functions it monitors is "Stress." That value is calculated from Heart rate, HRV (Heart Rate Variability) and probably other inputs. The time resolution is about 4 minutes. If I am watching a comedian on TV my stress reading drops. When my Brother in Law brings up politics my stress reading goes up. When I drink 1/4 of a glass of wine my stress reading goes up because my HRV goes down. It is that sensitive.

I have mild tinnitus that sounds like a constant 4-6 kHz ringing. It does not bother me enough to increase my stress, however. Maybe a brain stem reading would be more accurate.
I am a runner and wear Shokz bone conducting headphones that do not send sound through the ear canal. It might be worth trying an experiment of sweeping frequency with the Shokz until you hear something similar to your tinnitis and then sweeping phase to see if it cancels. That test would be relatively free.

I'm going to keep thinking about this.

Thanks, I'm going to look into this watch! Any computer work is more than challenging when the background I pretty much hear Ear Ringing loud enough to ruin all forms of physical rest (If I'm physically working, I can seem to tune it out - but it's definitely keeping me stressed and subsequently on the move - hyperactive). The moment I stop actively doing stuff it shifts to the foreground. If the sleeping pills don't work a night its basically all I can think about because my brain is failing miserably to shift it to the background - the end result is it "feels" like an increase in amplitude.

Anyhow, the PCP is now referring me to ENT and Neurology (that is thanks to everyone here telling me it's ok to be a pain in the butt about it to the medical professionals). MRI possible (depending on insurance coverage), but I don't want to bankrupt the family to get one as @Eukonidor correctly points out about the expense of testing.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not sure I saw a direct response to the technical part of this:

How difficult would it be to send destructive interference sound wave into an ear via hearing aid device, which cancels a ringing frequency/amplitude only I can hear. Do the patient need to just consciously say I don't hear the tone to the doctor when they apply a destructive tone.... My feeling is that it's basically steady frequency, with increasing amplitude as the day progresses....

How would you set up a medical experiment to isolate the tone/frequency I think I hear, that is in-audible to the rest of the world?

The difficulty here is that it isn't just about matching the frequency. You have to match the phase, too (invert it). This would be nigh on impossible to do without being able to hear the sound (meaning, a signal-processing device being able to hear it). It's unlikely that adjusting manually and getting close would be good enough, or would be successful over a long period of time (such as while trying to sleep).

And that would only even be applicable for tinnitus caused by "real" sounds as opposed to misfiring nerves. I would tend to doubt that it would help at all for most cases (though it would be interesting to see if that's been studied).

Bottom line is still the same as what others said: this is something that needs to be handled by medical professionals. And trust me I know it can be difficult to trust them when they don't always have a good handle on what's going on. But it's still the path most likely to lead to success (following the advice of others here also, such as be persistent, don't take "no" for an answer, seek additional opinions, etc.). Been there.

 

[Dali]

How difficult would it be to send destructive interference sound wave into an ear via hearing aid device, which cancels a ringing frequency/amplitude only I can hear.

This is not only difficult (as pointed out by @russ_watters), but impossible. Noice cancelling technology relies on a microphone to continually monitor the incoming noice or signal, so an inverted signal can be created to cancel it. Since your ringing is not a real incoming audio wave, no device will be able to cancel it by destructive interference.

 

[erobz]

This is not only difficult (as pointed out by @russ_watters), but impossible. Noice cancelling technology relies on a microphone to continually monitor the incoming noice or signal, so an inverted signal can be created to cancel it. Since your ringing is not a real incoming audio wave, no device will be able to cancel it by destructive interference.

Impossible would seem a bit strong? My brain is measuring it, or outputting it. Perhaps impossible with our current understanding of the brain and its signals, but if my brain is observing it must be observable directly/or indirectly? I can just say flat out, "that's the inverted frequency/amplitude" when I observe the absence of significant ringing. The trick would be to have that done actively. Like I said it doesn't vary in frequency (what I'm consciously measuring as the output at least), just amplitude with stress perhaps.

When I'm outdoors it is far easier to ignore because of all the ambient noise. Perhaps there is a treatment in that observation.

 

[berkeman]

Since we've been dancing around diagnosis (Dx) and treatment (Tx) options in this thread, I need to close it now. Please see your primary care physician (PCP) to discuss your symptoms (Sx) and your Tx options. Most likely they will send you to an ear nose and throat (ENT) doc. Good luck.