Was Sarah Palin the Right Choice for McCain's VP?

[Ivan Seeking]

I realized [I suspect] at least one reason why McCain's people decided to keep McCain and Palin together: They can't have her drawing five times the crowds that he does!

I want a "no Palin-McCain" bumper sticker.

 

[castlegates]

If McCain would have picked an industry standard for VP ( rich, intelligent), his race would be all but over IMO. Palin was a good choice in that she connects with a very large voting block. It is the industry standard voter (the people that make less than 75 grand). :-)

This group would love nothing better than to buck the system, a system that always leaves them wanting. Play this group and the race is yours. You don't have to give them anything, you just have to imply that you will. Having a VP on the ticket that is one of them is an implication. All that is needed here on her part is to tell them what they want to hear.

Obama will play this group as best he can, but he has moochos denero, which doesn't go over to well with a working stiff.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If McCain would have picked an industry standard for VP ( rich, intelligent), his race would be all but over IMO. Palin was a good choice in that she connects with a very large voting block. It is the industry standard voter (the people that make less than 75 grand). :-)

She was a good choice because no one knows anything about her and we only have 60 days. Rather than picking someone who is clearly qualified for the job, he went the blind faith route and is betting that enough Americans are stupid enough to fall for it, again.

Given that 60 days isn't nearly enough time for the voters to learn about her, McCain is effectively trying to bypass the election process. It will require intense scrutiny to even get even an impression of who she really is.

Obama will play this group as best he can, but he has moochos denero, which doesn't go over to well with a working stiff.

Um, he is getting most of his "moochos denero" from working stiffs.

 

[LowlyPion]

... , she merely reiterated McCain's position regarding Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Be serious. This is not a thoughtful position on her part. She is little more than a trained talking myna bird on such topics involving national complexity.

She's not nearly enough heartbeats away from the office for her level of analytical ability and decision making.

 

[Cyrus]

So Ivan, where are we moving to if McCain (God forbid) wins?

I hear Canada is nice...

 

[castlegates]

She was a good choice because no one knows anything about her and we only have 60 days. Rather than picking someone who is clearly qualified for the job, he went the blind faith route and is betting that enough Americans are stupid enough to fall for it, again.



Um, he is getting most of his "moochos denero" from working stiffs.

You don't get it. Americans can be played again, and again, and again. :-)
Those deneros were coming in before the Palin pick. I'll bet it tails off (siphoned off) at least somewhat.

Chances are that Obama is going to win this thing, Bush is a difficult thing to overcome for republicans. Palin is a shot in the dark, that may actually have a chance of paying off.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So Ivan, where are we moving to if McCain (God forbid) wins?

I hear Canada is nice...

We tried that once, but in addition to other limitations, we can't afford to give-up our retirement plans. Honestly, in 2004, if we could have left, we would have. We tried. As far as I was concerned, the music died that day in November. And I have shed more tears for this country over the last eight years than I care to remember.

McCain winning wouldn't bother me so much just because it is McCain, as it was with Bush. What scares me is that anyone would vote Republican after all that has happened. If Obama was a complete bum, I could see it to some extent, but given such a talented candidate, it makes no sense.

But, that's okay. If I still have any understanding of this country at all, Obama is going to win. This Palin thing is just a bump. She is just an idea to people right now. That will change. But slipping her in this late in the game means that there is much to be done to expose the person beneath the persona, and quickly.

 

[Cyrus]

If Obama does not win by more than 20% my jaw will hit the floor. It's amazing how little the American public cares about anything anymore. I honestly think we might be seeing the starting point of the downturn of America as a superpower in the next 20-30 years.

 

[LowlyPion]

... and try to scare american voters claiming that the Republicans are ignorant of basic economics.

The last 8 years has undeniably been a downturn in the US Economy, going from surpluses to budget deficit, to widening trade shortfalls, to job loss, to mounting national debt, to increasing inflation, crumbling roads and bridges infrastructure, ballooning health care costs, energy costs, and we have been reaping the whirlwind on unregulated financial oversight - the latest being the Fannie-Freddie bailout. In short, the Republicans have proven themselves just about totally inept at about everything EXCEPT fattening themselves.

The thing that's scary is the idea that anyone might believe them when now they claim that they would stand for change.

 

[wildman]

Heh - I read an article today that said just the opposite: people are being to harsh about her.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/08/palin.standard.irpt/index.html

I don't think the press being harsh with her is all bad for McCain. What Obama had going for him was the interest of the Press. Palin has taken that interest. Good or bad, she is getting a lot of press and taking it away from Obama.

 

[turbo]

If Obama does not win by more than 20% my jaw will hit the floor. It's amazing how little the American public cares about anything anymore. I honestly think we might be seeing the starting point of the downturn of America as a superpower in the next 20-30 years.

Don't be too sure, Cy. W "won" if the efforts of the GOP to suppress Dem voting via "caging lists" and other tactics are discounted. The GOP will use such tactics again, especially with military deployed personnel currently giving over 6:1 to Obama. It's easy to disenfranchise somebody a half-world away, and it's very tough for such voters to assert their rights and make sure that their votes are actually tallied.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If Obama does not win by more than 20% my jaw will hit the floor.

Yes, I expect the electoral count to be around 60-40.

It's amazing how little the American public cares about anything anymore. I honestly think we might be seeing the starting point of the downturn of America as a superpower in the next 20-30 years.

When we started to argue about torture, wire-taps on US citizens, nuclear bunker busters as a preemptive weapon, and preemptive war for that matter, the America that I knew no longer existed. In the past, these practices were those of our enemies, by defintion.

 

[Cyrus]

Well, we always did that Ivan. But at least it was all hush hush stuff you were not supposed to hear about (but is coming to light now that things are being declassified).

What I see as a turning point is the disregard for science, and a culture of ignorance. Watch videos from the 60s. There great. The people would dress sharp and speak intelligently. Even people who were not well educated knew how to speak when they opened their mouth. Most people today are no class bums. And I don't see people care about one another.

 

[CRGreathouse]

When we started to argue about torture, wire-taps on US citizens, nuclear bunker busters as a preemptive weapon, and preemptive war for that matter, the America that I knew no longer existed. In the past, these practices were those of our enemies, by defintion.

Two apolitical points of order here:

1. If the America that you knew included free speech, wouldn't arguments about these things be acceptable? (Not practice, mind you.)
2. If the enumerated activities were of the enemies of the US "by definition", what was the definition of enemy and who was using "enemy" in that sense?

Also, as far as I know nuclear bunker busters have not been used to, uh, bust bunkers (by the US or any other country). Am I wrong? If not, how were those the practice of the enemies of the US in the past? Also, this must be a recent past, as bunker-busting nukes seems to be a recent idea -- and couldn't have come before the 40s.

 

[Defennder]

1. If the America that you knew included free speech, wouldn't arguments about these things be acceptable? (Not practice, mind you.)

This is an interesting question. There are similar parallel puzzles in other fields of knowledge as well. In politics, it goes by the form: Should a democratic country tolerate the rise of an undemocratic party or political figure? If yes, then it risks becoming autocratic and undemocratic, if no, then it risks offending the principles of democracy. In philosophy it has the general form "Can a philosophical criterion be subjected to its own standard?". For example, many argue that the demarcationist criterion of logical positivism does not meet it's own standard and is hence self-defeating. In logic, I suppose one could always argue, "But how do we justify logic without resorting to logic, so as to avoid circular arguments ?"

But such an argument seems rather cheap and pointless to me. What do you think?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

So Ivan, where are we moving to if McCain (God forbid) wins?

I hear Canada is nice...

I'll help you pack. In my opinion it will be an improvement for both countries. Anyone else who wants to leave should contact me. I have done it many times and can provide helpful tips. No phonies please. I have no time for people who claim that they want to leave and yet stay.

Here are some statistics on emigration from the US. Roughly 48,000 a year give it an honest try. I don't know if these numbers include illegal emigration.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0010/twps0010.html

 

[BobG]

Has Obama appeared on TV lately? Sarah Palin is everywhere. If Obama's votes depended on his celebrity TV status this is going bad for him; this pick by McCain is going good and in hindsight it seems to have been to

-Portray Obama as a distant politician ; when he's not on TV being liked by all he becomes an obscure character.

-Portray Obama as condenscending i.e. his polished personality versus Palin's " too naive to know anything yet a humble, earnest, and grounded " . It seems that some Americans sense that the Obama and Biden case is self righteous and glorified as compared to the real quintessentially American issues ... teenage pregnancy. Dispell the Obama historic grandeur with the genuinely religious concern of parent's everywhere over the issue of rampant fornication amongst our teens.

Celebrity status is a fickle thing. No matter what the public's final opinion about Palin, a little bit of Obama's allure has disappeared forever. He's not as new as he was even two weeks ago. He's a little closer to being part of the established group of politicians that usually run for President.

That's actually a good thing. Eventually, Palin's honeymoon will end - she's running for VP, not President. The decision between McCain and Obama is more important than a celebrity VP and the playing field has been leveled just a bit. The issues will matter more - at least more than they would have if Obama was still the new rage.

Of course, to work, McCain and Palin have to split up and campaign separately. Campaigning with Palin might be apealling now while she's still shockingly new, but she also makes McCain look shockingly old. If McCain rides Palin's honeymoon too far, he's going to wind up suffering a huge hangover - especially if Palin flops in interviews and debates and fails to deliver a little substance behind her image (I don't think that's a given, but it is still a big unknown).

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I voted "Best Choice McCain could have made-- will definitely help". I expect her to keep the conservatives quiet while McCain moves away from Bush. By election day, Palin will be to the right of Attilla the Hun, and McCain to the left of Hillary. Unbeatable.

 

[Astronuc]

I expect her to keep the conservatives quiet while McCain moves away from Bush. By election day, Palin will be to the right of Attilla the Hun, and McCain to the left of Hillary. Unbeatable.

She has helped bring in ~$10 million in the few days since the GOP convention.

 

[turbo]

How long until the public catches on? After Palin's claim to have been against the "bridge to nowhere" has been thoroughly debunked by even the most conservative news outlets, she is still repeating the lie on the campaign trail. She finally dropped support for the bridge after Congressional support dried up, and never returned those earmarked funds that had been paid out by the Federal government. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/09/1366884.aspx

 

[LowlyPion]

How long until the public catches on? After Palin's claim to have been against the "bridge to nowhere" has been thoroughly debunked by even the most conservative news outlets, she is still repeating the lie on the campaign trail. She finally dropped support for the bridge after Congressional support dried up, and never returned those earmarked funds that had been paid out by the Federal government. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/09/1366884.aspx

Well apparently like all politicians she's against other people's pork barrels, but not her own. Once she got the money she kept it. Why give it back and really say "Thanks, but no thanks." ?

This isn't reform. This is just more of the same kind of two-faced treatment of the public that Bush-Rove-Cheney have been dishing from their taco stand the last 8 years.

"Would you like to top that Iraqi taco off with a little of our special WMD sauce? "

 

[turbo]

The "liberal media" will never bother debunking Palin's distortions and lies - and that's too bad. She has been attacking Obama for requesting earmarks for his state, and nobody in the press has the guts to point out that she requested 10 times as much money per capita. Alaska is awash in so much oil money that they have no sales tax nor income tax, and still manage to pay each resident $3200/year, and yet they need 10x as much federal money per capita as Illinois? When Charles Gibson interviews Palin, it will be interesting to see if he will touch any of this or stay on "safe" subjects that will guarantee him continued access to her.

 

[LowlyPion]

When Charles Gibson interviews Palin, it will be interesting to see if he will touch any of this or stay on "safe" subjects that will guarantee him continued access to her.

"Once you know about her daughter's pregnancy, once you know about her husband's political interest in the Alaska Independent Party, once you know about the special nature of their latest child, I think that's enough," Gibson wrote.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/politics&id=6346348

I'd say he's guaranteed safe not to ask insightful or challenging questions. The fact of the matter is I doubt the country really knows much about the "First Dude's" political extremism.

Next an interview from Bill O'Reilly?

 

[edward]

Palin make a blooper at the 50 second point of the video in the link.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/08/palin-makes-her-first-gaf_n_124792.html

I'm not a big fan of the Huffington post, but if it has a relevant video I will certainly watch it.

She states that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have gotten to big and too expensive to the taxpayers...not until yesterday Ms Palin. McCain doesn't look to pleased, but the crowd does applaud.

It looks like she is mostly prsenting canned intro's for McCain.

 

[turbo]

I'd say he's guaranteed safe not to ask insightful or challenging questions.

The sit-down is proposed for "multiple" sessions so that if Gibson asks any real questions they can pull the plug on him and make Palin "unavailable" for the later sessions. That practically guarantees softballs in the first session, and if that's all they get in the can, that's what they'll air. Gibson floats personal issues as if Palin has already addressed them sufficiently, but that's not the point. We don't need to know who was in bed with whom. We need to know if she has any grasp of foreign policy, economic policy, social issues, personal freedoms, etc. Certainly, we can't expect her to have Biden's foreign-policy experience, nor Obama's understanding of Constitutional law, but we have a right to expect that she's not a total dunce.

 

[Cyrus]

I'll help you pack. In my opinion it will be an improvement for both countries. Anyone else who wants to leave should contact me. I have done it many times and can provide helpful tips. No phonies please. I have no time for people who claim that they want to leave and yet stay.

Here are some statistics on emigration from the US. Roughly 48,000 a year give it an honest try. I don't know if these numbers include illegal emigration.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0010/twps0010.html

Just for that I am staying to spite you.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Just for that I am staying to spite you.

You and my wife both. I had an inkling that you had no intention of leaving. Usually, when someone says "If so and so wins, I'll leave" they don't have the conviction to carry through. Perhaps they mean that other people should have the conviction that they lack. Is that what you meant? If not, what did you mean?

 

[edward]

Palin still hans't been allowed to answer a question in regards to any government policy. She just keeps parroting one liners from the speech that was written for her.

It is as if she is on VP training wheels.

The carefully planed choreography of her trainers has fooled a lot of people.

BTW the latest is that she received per diem for living at home for 300 days of her term as governor. ??

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wa...s/2008/09/palin_per_diem_travel_expenses.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'll help you pack.

I'm sure that you've helped enough already.

 

[turbo]

BTW the latest is that she received per diem for living at home for 300 days of her term as governor. ??

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wa...s/2008/09/palin_per_diem_travel_expenses.html

She moved the family into the governor's residence in Juneau, but they didn't like it there, so she essentially moved her office to her home in Wasilla, and worked out of state offices in Anchorage when she had need to. Since the family wasn't living in the governor's residence, there was no need for a cook - thus her frequent references to letting the cook go. It wasn't a mater of frugality and "being a mom" as Palin would have voters think. With nobody at the governor's residence to feed, there was no need for a cook.

Palin's aides are saying that it was not illegal for her to charge per-diems for living in her own house, but surely that would be a call for the AG or perhaps an ethics panel of legislators, not appointed assistants. When I was working for General Physics as a consultant, I lived out my suitcase quite a bit, and worked out of my home office in Maine whenever I needed to write proposals, work up systems descriptions, etc. If I tried to charge the company a per-diem for living and working in my own house, I don't think that would have gone over well. The Vice-president that I reported to would have been happy to have me work out of the MD office and pay for rooms and meals when I did so, but my preference was to work from home when possible. It was a matter of convenience for me, just as it was for Ms Palin.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I'm sure that you've helped enough already.

Obviously not. You're still here. You have stated that you want to leave but can't. I'm here to help. What would it take to get you to do what you and I both want you to do?

 

[GCT]

" Palin gets it " , more people trust Palin than Obama according to recent polls.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/10/poll_palin_gets_it.html

It's sad that people can be influenced to vote for a candidate by vague three word statements such as this rather than understanding concrete statement outlines of what's really going to happen if that person should be elected. The American people may have pure intentions and desires to vote for " issues that really matter " however they are sheep when it comes to politics ; they would rather believe that these indirect statements are somehow going deliver what they need rather than defining their own needs concretely and then carefully dissecting the outline statements of the candidates. It's not surprising really , it is this type of ignorance that enables them to brainwash themselves to subconsciously get what they want - partisan politics.

Get drunk on belief and while you're at it indulge in good ol' time American religion . Yeah dance the religion dance with me c'mon this party is going to be great! " Gather around everyone we're all going to have a drunk political party! " We're free! I love this country! Yes , we're free

... to ...

(subsconsciously) vote for what we really want.

At the voting booth

I BELIEVE that God is important

... therefore race is important ... God would never want me to vote for someone from Kenya.

therefore by logical deduction .. Palin is important! Yes , poor soul , she's so kind and naive , she needs our help! Palin it is! God loves you Obama , you're going to be fine.

 

[mathwonk]

good for whom?

i will suggest that she is a good choice since she helps paint the contrast between the two camps more clearly.

I.e. anyone in doubt as to which candidate to vote for is surely an extremely opinionless person.

I.e. either you believe might is right shoot first and ask questions later and god is on our side in all things no matter how evil and that everyone should live their personal lives by your rules or get out,

or you believe in subtlety and fairness and the articulate discussion of issues on their merits.

how could there be any difficulty in this choice?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

" Palin gets it " , more people trust Palin than Obama according to recent polls.

Of course they do. They don't know anything about her. That is the only reason why she was a good choice. Give it a little time. Eventually I would think that Palin will have to be let off the leash. But, who knows? Maybe she will only make prepared statements for the next two months... I don't know how one can do this in a debate. And eventually I would think that she will have to make the Sunday morning circuit.

Of course, it proves that McCain will indeed put politics ahead of the country. He is risking the entire nation on a complete unknown because it might help him win. Hopefully this fact will begin to sink in.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Sarah Palin action figures are on sale now:

http://www.herobuilders.com/08.htm

Looks like they were in such a hurry they didn't give much thought to getting the wardrobe right, and just borrowed costumes from some other action figures.