What are the challenges faced by disillusioned math majors in finding a job?

[Locrian]

I have been studying for exam P them but I find actuary studying kind of boring.

Well, if someone told you they were thinking about training to run a marathon, but they found jogging down the street and back was really boring, what would you say to them? It's hard to describe just how trivial exam P is compared to the others, and honestly I find probability to be an interesting topic.

 

[homeylova223]

I mean I like some aspect of exam p such the discrete frequency distributions and combinations and permutations. But I find it exam P tough. Especially all those integrals and moment generating function they kind of bore me but are tough and time consuming at the same time.

I am not sure whether to continue studying to be actuary or maybe work more on programming. I guess coding is more broad and can be used in more industry, while the actuarial exams are more specialized.I guess I could study to be an actuary and learn to code at the same time.

 

[homeylova223]

What gets always frightens me about data analyst is the job adverts. There are always some many little thing mango, sql, tensor flow,c++,c#. All these little requirement for jobs on indeed. I do not know what to focus on.

I think just getting good at one programming language is time consuming. I guess I am better off focusing on data analyst than on software developer. Because people on the forum have said to be a data analyst /statistics person you need to learn stats and python and maybe you can get a job.

While with software developer you need to know several language ides and all this stuff.

 

[Locrian]

Well to be a software developer you also typically need some skill in software engineering, which is more than simply knowing how to code (and in fact software folks typically have several different versions of what I'm calling a "software engineer"). Data Scientists tend to be bad software engineers, which is one reason operationalizing ML code has become such a significant piece of the work. As far as I'm concerned, reliance on Jupyter style notebooks is a bug, not a feature.

But I agree you're having trouble figuring out what to focus on. That's partly because the area of "data analysis" is an extremely broad field. I'm pretty sure I could list between thirty and fifty skills employed in that space pretty quickly, any of which might show up on a job description.

However the jobs themselves tend to small subsets of those skills, meaning you should pick the most valuable two or three you think you could engage well with it and go. For instance, if you decided to complete a Kaggle challenge in Python, relying entirely on an AWS EC2 instance (which could be free), you'd likely leverage AWS EC2, linux, Python, pandas, scikit-learn, some statistics and machine learning all in one little project. Wrap it in Flask and provide a little UI and suddenly you're in the web development and API development arenas too.

Most importantly, just DO something.

 

[Locrian]

And go ahead and set actuarial exams aside until you have more ability to focus on them. As someone who has seen people pass and fail at them, I'm telling you now that intensity of focus and willingness to invest completely are necessary (but not sufficient) attributes. People who spend time on forums ruminating on whether they should keep taking them (rather than, you know, studying for them) are not good candidates.

 

[symbolipoint]

What gets always frightens me about data analyst is the job adverts. There are always some many little thing mango, sql, tensor flow,c++,c#. All these little requirement for jobs on indeed. I do not know what to focus on.

I think just getting good at one programming language is time consuming.

Time Consuming, but very useful.
Look for trends you find in the advertisements for those positions, and ask for advice from your educators, evaluate for yourself, and make your best choices.

 

[homeylova223]

I am frustrated with the job search right now. Still no job. I had one interview at the community college canceled, another one I got told I was good candidate but the job was canceled at the Environment protection.

Then two days ago I get a phone call saying my resume is good and this job has number crunching and they you are good fit they ask me if I am willing to relocate I say yes. This job is in the same state. Then I get a rejection letter saying this"Thank you for applying to x company.We have decided not to move ahead with your application for the role at this time. You have a strong resume, so I do believe you will be able to find another position with your knowledge and experience.

Please do not hesitate to reach out in the future if we have another role you think could be a fit for you. "

The guy told me in a phone call the manager want somebody in the exact same city. I am just frustrated with life. I wish I never went to college. Tbh they did not even want to tell me how much the job pays so maybe it was not too much of a loss.

 

[homeylova223]

How do you cope with constant rejection and being told no all the time it just wearing me down and makes me depressed. What really get me is this cycle of false hope. Where someone tell you are a good fit talks to you or make you do an interview and then tells you to bugger off. It enough to drive you insane.

 

[Dale]

How do you cope with constant rejection and being told no all the time it just wearing me down and makes me depressed. What really get me is this cycle of false hope. Where someone tell you are a good fit talks to you or make you do an interview and then tells you to bugger off. It enough to drive you insane.

It is much easier said than done, but don't take it personally. It is OK to get a whole bunch of "no"s, you only need one "yes". Your percentage is irrelevant. So don't take it personally, but do your best to get feedback and react to that feedback for the next time.

As I said, it is much easier said than done.

 

[homeylova223]

I do not know I guess some people just have to be losers if there are winners like that Ellon Musk,Steve Jobs, Bill Gates then I guess some people just have to be losers..

 

[sysprog]

I do not know I guess some people just have to be losers if there are winners like that Ellon Musk,Steve Jobs, Bill Gates then I guess some people just have to be losers..

It's much harder to win with an attitude like that. Please read The Gospel of Wealth by Andrew Carnegie. He presents some good insights.

 

[homeylova223]

Ok I will read it.

Right now I have a dilemma crossing my mind. That is whether to go the MS in Operations research. Recently I been thinking more about returning to college. And I think I would like to get an undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering with a focus on simple machines, I been reading about simple machines like lever and this seems like a career path. The only problem is I was looking at GA tech and to apply for an undergraduate degree I would not be able to start until fall of next year and that is too long to wait for me. I also do not know If I can get into a master of mechanical of engineering I did not take any engineering or physics courses in school.

I have been admitted into operation research master but I am not sure If I should do it. I mean if I have to pay I might as well pay for a degree I like.

 

[Dale]

I do not know I guess some people just have to be losers if there are winners like that Ellon Musk,Steve Jobs, Bill Gates then I guess some people just have to be losers..

None of those people’s success is improved by your difficulties finding a job.

 

[homeylova223]

My thought is if some people are winners then some people just have to be loser. You cannot have a winner without a loser. Sometimes you just have to conceded you are loser.
Sometime your only to option is to fail and failure is the only option.

Bill Gates no he success does not affect me but because I am not competing with him, but we live in a world of competition so I guess sometimes your only option is to fail...

 

[Dale]

My thought is if some people are winners then some people just have to be loser. You cannot have a winner without a loser.

That is only true for zero sum games. Neither life nor economics is a zero sum game.

 

[StatGuy2000]

My thought is if some people are winners then some people just have to be loser. You cannot have a winner without a loser. Sometimes you just have to conceded you are loser.
Sometime your only to option is to fail and failure is the only option.

As @Dale already said, what you said above is only true for zero-sum games. But finding jobs is not a zero-sum game.

The funny thing about employment (and other areas of life) is that the more you become morose, depressed, fatalistic or pessimistic (e.g calling yourself a loser), the more it shows through in your manner (whether in your appearance, gestures, manner of speaking), and the more people are turned off by this. I don't like to use woo-woo mystical language (being naturally hostile to such things), but there is something to the saying of people giving off "negative energy".

So the key thing is to stay determined, work harder at seeking work, work to improve your interviewing techniques, and sharpen whatever skills you need for the type of job you ultimately want. It's a long game (there was a time in my life where I waited nearly a year for a job, so I know how much of a struggle it can be) but the more you try, and the more you display an optimistic attitude, the greater the probability that you will land something.

 

[atyy]

It's a long game (there was a time in my life where I waited nearly a year for a job, so I know how much of a struggle it can be) but the more you try, and the more you display an optimistic attitude, the greater the probability that you will land something.

What did you do in that year?

 

[StatGuy2000]

What did you do in that year?

I did many things during that time (admittedly this was quite a while ago, not too long after I finished my Masters degree).

I searched for work continuously, using online job forums like Monster and Workopolis (a Canadian job search website founded all the way back in 1999), as well as through networking, and attended frequent job interviews (including informational interviews).

In addition, I was reviewing my study material in statistics, and studying SAS programming on my own to become better proficient in that area (important for work in statistics).

I found that all of these activities quickly took up most of my time. It also helped that I was (at the time) living with my parents, so I didn't have to worry about rent.

 

[symbolipoint]

I found that all of these activities quickly took up most of my time. I was also helped that (at the time), I was still living

Part of what you said there seems incorrect. Maybe you can edit so the intended meaning is more understandable.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Part of what you said there seems incorrect. Maybe you can edit so the intended meaning is more understandable.

My mistake! Just fixed it now.

This is what happens when I try posting using Google on my cell!

 

[Stephen Tashi]

What gets always frightens me about data analyst is the job adverts. There are always some many little thing mango, sql, tensor flow,c++,c#. All these little requirement for jobs on indeed. I do not know what to focus on.

Different places use different software so they hope to find new employees who are likely to fit in with their current practices. I doubt you can find a software specialization that is universally in demand. However, being able to brag about some specialization is better than not showing any.

I haven't read all the messages in this thread. If you are in the USA, you should look at government jobs, especially if you can qualify to get a security clearance. Read the documentation carefully. People can qualify to be a statistician, operations research analyst, programmer etc. without having a specialist degree. You only need to document that you have taken a certain number of semester hours of relevant courses.

I think just getting good at one programming language is time consuming.

Being able to say you have experience in a programming language is very useful in getting hired. You need not claim to be good - nor mention that you are bad.

 

[symbolipoint]

Being able to say you have experience in a programming language is very useful in getting hired. You need not claim to be good - nor mention that you are bad.

The hiring principals can make their own assessment if a candidate's skills or knowledge is critical.

 

[homeylova223]

Yes I tried applying to government jobs I have done like 30 applications on USA jobs for "Statistics " and "Mathematics". Heck I even tried military but because of some issues I am not sure I can join.

Anyway tomorrow I got another interview with the community college that canceled me back in March. I chose the virtual online interview because I am worried about the whole corona virus. I hope they hire me I meet minimum qualifications but the preferred qualification is 3 year community college experience teaching full time.

I am still wondering whether to take out loans and go back to college. I am not sure If I am better off getting as SAS certification.

 

[homeylova223]

I did the interview
They asked the following
1. tell me about yourself why you want to work at a community college?
I told them I have a master in math, have 4 year tutoring/graduate assistant expirience. I want to work with student and want to teach.
2. tell us about college programming platforms you used?
I told them I used d2l and perason my mathlab to help student.
3. What role does technology have in the classroom?
4. elaborate teaching experience?
5. describe yourself as an instructor?
told them I am patient, a good communicator and empathetic toward student.
6. what are successful teacher abilities or qualities?
7. how adaptable are you to online learning?
told them I tutor online before.
8. How adaptable are you to older students?
9.how motivate a lazy student?
10. how do handle a difficult student?

It was a online virtual interview. Honestly maybe I rushed through the question a little bit because I was writing them down and it would be awkward to be silent.They told me we will let you know in one to two weeks. Which I think means they rejected me because if they were interested they would let me know in quicker time frame. I do not know I felt they were not feeling me I asked a question about technology like excel in the classroom and got a one word answer...

 

[sysprog]

Yes I tried applying to government jobs I have done like 30 applications on USA jobs for "Statistics " and "Mathematics". Heck I even tried military but because of some issues I am not sure I can join.

Anyway tomorrow I got another interview with the community college that canceled me back in March. I chose the virtual online interview because I am worried about the whole corona virus. I hope they hire me I meet minimum qualifications but the preferred qualification is 3 year community college experience teaching full time.

I am still wondering whether to take out loans and go back to college. I am not sure If I am better off getting as SAS certification.

I think that teaching technology well requires pedagogical ability, and clear understanding of principles, more than it requires extensive rote learning of a specific package.

SAS is a good package, but I wouldn't pay $180 for a test in it, let alone the tuition for a class.

I think that you'd do better to read the vendor's public documentation, and get a SAS textbook, work the exercises, and study SQL, including ODBC and stored procedures.

To get deeper into what is trendily called 'big data' processing (we used to call it 'large scale DP' but now it's much bigger), it would probably be helpful to learn some database theory and practice, including normalization to at least 2nd normal form, avoidance and handling of systematic problems, e.g. the NP-complete view serializability problem of database concurrency control, along with theory and practice of queuing, storage area networks, and multi-platform storage management.

It would also be helpful to be Unix-proficient, at least to the level of being able to write useful scripts, and able to handle security, backup and recovery, and inter-system data transfer.

 

[StatGuy2000]

They told me we will let you know in one to two weeks. Which I think means they rejected me because if they were interested they would let me know in quicker time frame.

That's not necessarily true -- companies usually take about one to two weeks to decide on a candidate. In the past, I've waited 3 weeks before finding out I was accepted for the job.

Of course, much would depend on how many people are applying for said position. Keep trying and see where it goes -- the more you apply, the more likely you would get interviews. And more the interviews, the greater probability you will be accepted for a new job.

 

[sysprog]

I did the interview
They asked the following
1. tell me about yourself why you want to work at a community college?
I told them I have a master in math, have 4 year tutoring/graduate assistant expirience. I want to work with student and want to teach.
2. tell us about college programming platforms you used?
I told them I used d2l and perason my mathlab to help student.
3. What role does technology have in the classroom?
4. elaborate teaching experience?
5. describe yourself as an instructor?
told them I am patient, a good communicator and empathetic toward student.
6. what are successful teacher abilities or qualities?
7. how adaptable are you to online learning?
told them I tutor online before.
8. How adaptable are you to older students?
9.how motivate a lazy student?
10. how do handle a difficult student?

It was a online virtual interview. Honestly maybe I rushed through the question a little bit because I was writing them down and it would be awkward to be silent.They told me we will let you know in one to two weeks. Which I think means they rejected me because if they were interested they would let me know in quicker time frame. I do not know I felt they were not feeling me I asked a question about technology like excel in the classroom and got a one word answer...

Please be sure to write a brief upbeat but not presumptuous post-interview thank-you letter to the person who interviewed you, with some interested observations that show that you have a detailed recollection of the content of the online discussion, and have a friend read it over, or if you only review it yourself, do so maybe 10 times, for appropriateness, sober (i.e not giddy) enthusiasm, and correctness, before you send it off.

 

[Locrian]

Yea it may take them a couple of weeks to finish the process and issue an offer. Alternatively, they may really prefer someone else, but that person may fall through, and then you'll get it instead. 2-3 weeks is not a long time.

My current job, from initial application to acceptance, was 6 months. That's a bit on the long side . . .

 

[Zap]

I didn't read through this entire thread, but if you are having trouble finding work, you can try the shot gun method.

Shot gun method involves spending a good amount of time perfecting your resume to fit a particular job or a narrow spectrum of jobs. After your resume is complete, all you do is apply to at least 100 jobs a day. Do not waste any time with a cover letter. Each application should take under one minute to complete. If the application is taking any longer than a minute, just move on to another.

I would also look into coding bootcamps and stuff like that, too.

I don't get why you are getting scared out of learning to code. The amount of code a data analyst or even sometimes a so called data scientist actually writes is almost a joke. To be a data analyst you only need to know Python, SQL and MS Excel. And again, the kind of code they write would not be at an engineering level.

I was interviewed for a job at a hedge fund that would have paid a crap ton of money and all they were looking for was for someone to clean data. That's it.

Software engineering is a little more challenging and from what I can tell mostly involves web development. You can get a job as a software engineer with zero experience if you create an online portfolio for yourself that showcases some projects you've made. I have a book on JavaScript that details a few projects like creating a platform game or creating your own programming language.

You should do machine learning, though.
I find the harder part of programming is the math and not the actual coding part, at least with the stuff I try to do, or what I like to do.
If I told you what I do at my job, I would say I barely do any real coding at all, and I'm a data analyst.
I code more as a hobby.

Have you looked into video game engine development? That usually requires a lot of math, if I'm not mistaken. You can buy books on this stuff, and the hard part is the math. Anytime you want to solve a problem with a computer, you have to put it into mathematical terms, which is not something anyone can do, even if they have a programming background.

 

[sysprog]

Shot gun method involves spending a good amount of time perfecting your resume to fit a particular job or a narrow spectrum of jobs. After your resume is complete, all you do is shot gun one-click apply to thousands of those jobs without even looking at the description. It doesn't matter if you're qualified or not. Do not even waste any time with a cover letter.

I think that making many job applications, without even considering, on a per-prospect basis, whether you have the requisite qualifications for the position, is inappropriately burdensome to prospective employers, and is risky for the job seeker, in that it incurs the possibility of creating a poor impression on a wealth of employers and agencies.

You can gain most of the benefit of a sweeping approach, while minimizing the risks of plastering inappropos overtures all over the job market, by registering at one or more of the job search sites, e.g. ziprecuiter.com, monster.com, or indeed.com, and they will load your email inbox with links to listings that at least roughly match your qualifications, and you can then apply only where you suppose there might be a legitimate mutual interest.

Also I think that writing a good cover letter, especially one that shows at least that you know what business the prospective employer is engaged in, is not at all a waste of your time.

 

[Zap]

I think that making many job applications, without even considering, on a per-prospect basis, whether you have the requisite qualifications for the position, is inappropriately burdensome to prospective employers, and is risky for the job seeker, in that it incurs the possibility of creating a poor impression on a wealth of employers and agencies.

You can gain most of the benefit of a sweeping approach, while minimizing the risks of plastering inappropos overtures all over the job market, by registering at one or more of the job search sites, e.g. ziprecuiter.com, monster.com, or indeed.com, and they will load your email inbox with links to listings that at least roughly match your qualifications, and you can then apply only where you suppose there might be a legitimate mutual interest.

Also I think that writing a good cover letter, especially one that shows at least that you know what business the prospective employer is engaged in, is not at all a waste of your time.

Writing a cover letter is a waste of time in the context of the shot gun method only. The idea is to apply to jobs that at least loosely match your resume using the shot gun method. This is accomplished by searching a key word in the search bar on the job board. Applying to completely random jobs that are entirely unrelated will be a poor execution of the shot gun method.

If you are not using the shotgun method, than write a good cover letter. Shotgun method can be turned off at any time.

Shot gun method will typically yield fast results to mediocre or poor opportunities, but the key word here is fast.

I actually got a software engineer interview using this method somehow. That was the one and only interview of that caliber I've ever gotten. The shotgun method relies on pure probability. I like to also call it the butterfly effect method.

To further elaborate on the cover letter controversy: if we assume 5 minutes to write a cover letter, that means you missed out on applying to 5 other jobs. Five more opportunities were sacrificed for one? You just lowered your probability of hitting the jackpot.

It's the butterfly effect method because it relies on chaos. For example, say the hiring manager also has a physics degree. He would have thrown your resume out but a mosquito lands on it. He smashes the mosquito, leaving a nasty blood trail. That blood trail highlights a few things on your resume he overlooked. He sees you also have a physics degree. He thinks to himself maybe I should give this guy a shot. If you hadn't used the shotgun method maybe you wouldn't have applied to that one job that happened to result in a mosquito landing on your resume.

This is the butterfly effect/shotgun method.

When using the shotgun method, I typically apply to jobs that do not have an option to include a cover letter. If the job mentions a cover letter or there is an option to attach a cover letter, I abandon it and move on to another. There are probably a billion jobs on the planet. Out of that billion, there might be a million or so that are loosely related to your resume. Even if you used the shotgun method 24/7 for an entire year straight, you would have only applied to a fraction of all the related jobs that are out there, which is continuously replenishing. It's like a pool of water that is being filled as you are trying to siphon it. That leads me to the refresh method.

One of my goals is to create an algorithm that can turn the shotgun method into the superluminal method to tackle a bigger chunk of all the related jobs that exist.

I'd like to note that I don't only rely on the shotgun method, but it is in my arsenal.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I just completed a hire. Step #1 was taking the obviously shotgunned applications and tossing them.

 

[Zap]

I understand the quality of your application goes down, but the point is that you are able to apply to more jobs.

I don't solely rely on shotgunning resumes, but it has gotten me interviews and even a job offer in the past. If you're super desperate for a job, it's something to try if nothing else has worked.

OP could have been looking for a job for a full year but only sent out 2 or 300 resumes.

If you ramp up to 2 to 300 resumes per day, you never know what might happen.

The job I finally managed to land seemed to have been more of a matter of luck than anything else.

By luck I mean random things, inexperience and lack of communication within the organization lead to me being hired over someone more qualified.

There are also thousands of job applications that don't want you to include a cover letter. I usually focus on these if I'm feeling like shotgunning. However, you definitely need to focus on having a good resume that targets one or a narrow spectrum of jobs.

OP's heart still breaks after getting a rejection letter, probably because he's spending 2 or 3 hours on each application and maybe hasn't truly applied to that many jobs in total. I get like ten rejection letters a day. It shouldn't feel like a knife through the heart every time.

I'm just throwing an idea out to OP in case he had never considered it. Frequency of applications makes a difference. If OP only wants to spend an hour a day looking for jobs. He can apply to 100 jobs in that hour or just a few. I'm not saying quantity is better than quality. It's just a different strategy. Maybe you could work out a nice blend of the two. I usually swap between the shotgun method and traditional methods when applying to jobs. It depends on what I'm applying to.

 

[homeylova223]

My idea would be just to go to a software company and see If can speak to a manager and tell them I have minor in cs and master in math and I am willing to work for minimum wage to get some work experience.

 

[StatGuy2000]

My idea would be just to go to a software company and see If can speak to a manager and tell them I have minor in cs and master in math and I am willing to work for minimum wage to get some work experience.

Such a strategy isn't likely to work for a number of reasons:

1. Any company has a basic idea of what an employee they plan to hire is worth. If you approach someone and say you are willing to work for minimum wage, the signal you are sending to them is that you do not have any skills. What you should have done instead was to apply to internships while you were still a student.

2. Simply telling someone you have a CS minor and a masters degree in math will not impress a manager. Such people are a dime a dozen among the applicant pool. Unless you have something that you can offer to the manager to that company, it's unlikely this will lead anywhere.