What do you know about arabs and muslims?

[wajed]

You are advocating for women sexual harassment/rape..

I`m not.

Yes that is nonsense. So, let's stop it.

I`m stopping it.

 

[Astronuc]

but its really hard for some/many to get this as if it was nothing at all. (specially teenagers)

Um - one needs to learn self-control. In free society, one needs to learn and develop self-control. It is the responsibility of parents to teach their children to be responsible members of society, and that implies teaching children to overcome their impulsive tendencies. Some people do not learn that however, and some people need to be removed from society if their lack of control results in harm to others.

I don't think it necessary that women be forced to cover themselves in order to prevent men from 'losing control'. I think it necessary for men to learn to control their behavior.

Self-control and self-restraint are also consistent with respect for others, and realizing that one does not have a right to impose oneself on others.

The point is to master one's passions. This was a point know to many like Abū ‘Alī al-Ḥusayn ibn ‘Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā Balkhi', known as Abu Ali Sina Balkhi[2][3] (Persian: ابوعلی سینا بلخى), who is better know in the west as Avicenna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

And the mastery of one's passions (or oneself) is a key point espoused by Siddhattha Gotama and K'ung Fu tzu.

 

[ranger]

This thread will get useless pretty soon. I don't know why its not even locked. Asking outsiders (especially westerns) for opinions/views on foreign cultures is not the best thing to do. A lot of them think what they do is right, and they judge ancient customs based on their "pop-culture." A perfect example of the current situation is about the French and the banning of the burqa.
Not all are like this, but some are.

And yes, wajed is right. Polygamy is a solution. Its not infidelity [to the Muslims]

If some should seek to educate themselves about foreign cultures and why they are as they are. Then I suggest you listen to the works of Dr. Zakir Naik. A truly remarkable man. He has addressed many questions, including Polygamy and the so called "jihad". Made me look at things in a different way. He has something called Peace TV. You can find all of his talks on YouTube.

 

[wajed]

Um - one needs to learn self-control. In free society, one needs to learn and develop self-control. It is the responsibility of parents to teach their children to be responsible members of society, and that implies teaching children to overcome their impulsive tendencies. Some people do not learn that however, and some people need to be removed from society if their lack of control results in harm to others.

I don't think it necessary that women be forced to cover themselves in order to prevent men from 'losing control'. I think it necessary for men to learn to control their behavior.

Self-control and self-restraint are also consistent with respect for others, and realizing that one does not have a right to impose oneself on others.

The point is to master one's passions. This was a point know to many like Abū ‘Alī al-Ḥusayn ibn ‘Abd Allāh ibn Sīnā Balkhi', known as Abu Ali Sina Balkhi[2][3] (Persian: ابوعلی سینا بلخى), who is better know in the west as Avicenna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

And the mastery of one's passions (or oneself) is a key point espoused by Siddhattha Gotama and K'ung Fu tzu.

Men/Women must learn to control their behaviour.
Men/Women can be positive by not exposing their sexual organs freely.

Men/Women can`t easily control their behaviour, and as much the "magntism" increases, as much you get "attracted".
Men/Women don`t have any tiny convincing reason to walk naked in the street.

I hope every person could control his behaviour, it would be a much better life. And then we would never need rules.

Edit: Surely I didn`t mean that there is something literally "magnetic" in this, I was just using a word to show a similar relation.
I think we need a mental relation, while magnets are not mental; so, an example of attraction-control would be someone`d desire to eat..
1)More delicous food attracts you more.
2)If you are exposing some delicous kind of food repeatedly, you are increasing the possibility that someone will eat from it. As much time it is exposed, as much there is more possiblity that the food will be eaten.
3)Someone can control himself/herself more than others. I hope everyone could control himself, but for sorrow not everyone can do it.

 

[rootX]

Then I suggest you listen to the works of Dr. Zakir Naik.

I only listened to him once about 9/11 and found it full of BS (listened for only 45 seconds). You can youtube his name + 9 11. I did not want to put the link here.

I haven't any other videos so I cannot judge currently.

 

[wildman]

Right so what you're saying is where someone comes from determines the quality of life they get? There is nothing you could say to me that would make beating your wife acceptable. I understand that in other parts of the world, that sort of thing is acceptable, but it doesn't make it right.

I have been to dubai and the arabs there were exceptionally nice people. As people have already pointed out, it is the extremist groups that taint the western view of muslims, but again as people have pointed out, arabs are not all muslims. So to put them in the same group is unfair. I have not met and extremist muslim, those I have met are all nice people.

Arabs are nice people. But the situation in the Arab word is the same as in the American South 50 years ago. There was only a minority that treated blacks really bad, but the rest of the population went along with it. Therefore the whole population was basically guilty of the lynching etc. There is probably only a minority of Arabs who beat their wives but the fact is the other Arabs turn their backs and look the other way. That makes them guilty of the wife beating that goes on also. Maybe it is because of fear (many white people in the American South were fearful of the KKK also) but many think (I'm sure) that it is no big deal. And that thinking is cultural.

 

[elect_eng]

i'm from Egypt and i always hear wrong and bad things about muslims and arabs said in the western media..(especially during Bush's reign)
and i noticed in this forum that most of u know good about us.but i want to know what do u hear and truly believe about us...i guess this will let us to know each other well...so I'm waiting for ur replys...

I'm from the US and I have a good Egyptian friend who I met in grad school. He lives in the US now. He once invited me to go to Egypt with him and I spent two weeks there and met his family and friends. I've also been to his mosque in the US and met his friends there too. I have nothing but the highest regard for any muslim/arab I've met. They have all been impressive people with good moral character. My experience is that the bad people from any race, country or religion are in the very small minority. Fanaticism exists in all groups and it's not fair to judge a group by looking at their misguided minority.

 

[ranger]

I only listened to him once about 9/11 and found it full of BS (listened for only 45 seconds). You can youtube his name + 9 11. I did not want to put the link here.

I haven't any other videos so I cannot judge currently.

I don't watch post 9/11 documentaries. Especially those that try to offer a an "explanation." You should listen to his talks about topics relevant to this discussion.

 

[rootX]

Asking outsiders (especially westerns) for opinions/views on foreign cultures is not the best thing to do. A lot of them think what they do is right, and they judge ancient customs based on their "pop-culture."

There is no need for outsider judgment if ancient customs/cultures are kept in isolation from rest of the world.

A perfect example of the current situation is about the French and the banning of the burqa.

French banning burqa for French citizens.

I don't watch post 9/11 documentaries. Especially those that try to offer a an "explanation." You should listen to his talks about topics relevant to this discussion.

I am hoping to. But after watching that 9/11 where I even doubted how he or others are calling him "Dr" (similar to American conservatives/liberals radio hosts - there was a thread about one few weeks ago), I wonder if I would be able to listen to him.

 

[ranger]

There is no need for outsider judgment if ancient customs/cultures are kept in isolation from rest of the world.

Impossible. Not in todays world. Not when there are shows like Taboo from NG and not when the media jumps on the news of an honor killing. You can't isolate a culture whilst you go and parade the globe like you own it. What you are asking to do is not possible. What should be done is more acceptance. And besides, what gives anyone the right to oppress and isolate a [ancient] culture? Are we the only ones who are entitled to express ourselves whilst those different from us must remain hidden for fear of being judged? Isn't this a milder form of the tactics being used in the Middle East by extremist?

French banning burqa for French citizens.

What difference does it make. A woman marries a citizen or stays there for 5 yrs and becomes a citizen..who cares. Its still stupid to ask someone do that just because your a citizen of france. I haven't read anywhere that's its only for citizens, but it still doesn't matter.

I am hoping to. But after watching that 9/11 where I even doubted how he or others are calling him "Dr" (similar to American conservatives/liberals radio hosts - there was a thread about one few weeks ago), I wonder if I would be able to listen to him.

No no, he's a real [medical] doctor. He got his MBBS from the University of Mumbai. If youre unable to listen to him, then fine. But you would benefit from it though. At least you would be able to understand those which are different from our standards.

 

[G01]

EDIT: Post turned out longer than I had initially planned it. Sorry.

Human beings have a strange ability to focus attention on differences rather than on similarities. It may be an evolutionary defense mechanism, helpful to single out threatening factors in the environment, i.e. predators, poisonous fruit, etc.

It seems to me that we carry these instinctual habits into our relationships with one another. I'm no evolutionary biologist, so someone please correct me if this statement is ridiculous.

So when westerners are confronted with middle eastern culture, and vice versa, we are instinctively apprehensive, because there are many differences.

If we all take a step back and concentrate, we'll notice that 90% of the lives of arabs and westerners are exactly the same. We ask the same scientific and philosophical questions. All of us have the same basic priorities. In the end, we are all concerned with feeding and providing for ourselves and our children.

The cultural generalizations, such as "all Muslims are terrorists" are also a result of evolution and instinct. For some reason, human beings need to be able to categorize and define everything around them. Things that don't fit into neat containers or denominations, like individuals in particular culture, instinctively bother humans. So, when we are dealing with complex open systems, like a person, we instinctively try to simplify the situation. This works well with electrons, protons, molecules, but not well with people, who are (in the words of Battlestar Galactica) clusterfraks of emotion, intellect, instinct, and desire and cannot be fit into any simple category.

Thus, some people feel the need to take outliers, like fanatical terrorists, and make them representative of the entire culture. If all Muslims are terrorists, the categories are simple and work. There is a place for everything and everything is in it's place. We are in control of the world, because we know where everything belongs. Unfortunately, categorizing and making simplifying assumptions may work well in science, but it only makes matters worse when dealing with human relationships.

So, why do human beings have such trouble reconciling different cultures? We are complex, sentient beings who are still influences by our evolutionary instincts, though we don't like to admit it at times.

In order to reconcile our differences we are going to have to overcome our tendency to fear things that are different and our instinct to categorize and make overly simplifying assumptions. We have to notice the similarities and build from there. We have to recognize that there are different cultures, but that no one individual in a culture is the same as another individual in the same culture. Both sides need to do this. Not just Islam and not just the West.

 

[berkeman]

This is arab culture going back a long long long way before Mohamid entered the scene. I'm looking for the historical reference...

Thanks Phrak. So it may be an Arab cultural thing that the Muslim religion did not specifically reject? Not good.

 

[Phrak]

Thanks Phrak. So it may be an Arab cultural thing that the Muslim religion did not specifically reject? Not good.

I'm not picking up an internet hit, sorry. I get a lot of hits on the ancient Greeks though, and even Roman culture involving honor killing. The fable I am thinking of may Not have originated in the Arab world, but ancient Persia.

In any case, it seems reasonable to assume that religions incorporate the morals of their culture at the time of their founding. And I have something on this, as Mohamid's followers would ask him if they were allowed some specific cultural practice. Though I'd probably come up empty looking for an internet hit on this as well. Oh well.

try http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=2&sub_cat_id=822 search on "passed"

 

[wajed]

Thanks Phrak. So it may be an Arab cultural thing that the Muslim religion did not specifically reject? Not good.

It is rejected.
Honor killing is Taboo/prohibited in Islam.
It's considered just like any kind of killing.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm not picking up an internet hit, sorry. I get a lot of hits on the ancient Greeks though, and even Roman culture involving honor killing. The fable I am thinking of may Not have originated in the Arab world, but ancient Persia.

In any case, it seems reasonable to assume that religions incorporate the morals of their culture at the time of their founding. And I have something on this, as Mohamid's followers would ask him if they were allowed some specific cultural practice. Though I'd probably come up empty looking for an internet hit on this as well. Oh well.

try http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=2&sub_cat_id=822 search on "passed"

A quick search (honour killings koran/islam) gave hits that say both though the hits that came back saying yes mostly looked anti-islam.

It would probably be more appropriate to say that many cultures hold onto their traditions despite the introduction of new religions. For example the holidays of "christmas" and easter have absolutely nothing to do with christianity although they have been changed to pay lipservice to the new religion.

Multiple hits said that there is no mention of honour killings in the Qur'an.

 

[ranger]

Honor Killings are in no way sanctioned by the Qur'an. Some searches on the net shows multiple Islamic scholars stating this. Its only done because some feel they need to restore family honor.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543392

 

[Santa1]

So is there no 'cover' for honour killings at all in the Qur'an, or are the interpetations that allows it?

By the way after talking to an Imam at the local mosque, I got the impression that hijab was a state of mind as well as it was not dressing 'challenging', he also said that men and women were equally responsible for upholding "hijab" (excuse my ignorance if that is a completely wrong use of the term hijab).

 

[Phrak]

It is rejected.
Honor killing is Taboo/prohibited in Islam.
It's considered just like any kind of killing.

Are you Sunni or Shiite? And where do you life? I do know that within Sharia law what is mandatory, optional and forbidden very from region to region.

 

[math_04]

So is there no 'cover' for honour killings at all in the Qur'an, or are the interpetations that allows it?

Well, a long time ago (pre Islamic Arabia), certain Arab tribes used to practice honor killing where the family of clans or tribe want control over the fertility of a woman. It is certainly frowned upon now but unfortunately, some habits do not pass with time.

http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm

Thus, some people feel the need to take outliers, like fanatical terrorists, and make them representative of the entire culture. If all Muslims are terrorists, the categories are simple and work. There is a place for everything and everything is in it's place. We are in control of the world, because we know where everything belongs. Unfortunately, categorizing and making simplifying assumptions may work well in science, but it only makes matters worse when dealing with human relationships.

Bravo G01. You have fanatics for every belief and ideology. Whether it be politics, religion and sometimes even science can have individuals who stick by their ideas even after countless experiments prove that they are wrong. Twisting the words of religious books is an unfortunate but powerful way of gaining recruits who may be uneducated, not well versed in the ideas of that particular religion or wants an easy path to reward and glory.

 

[math_04]

There is a nice documentary on Islam in America by Al Jazeera English.

http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/general/2008/10/2008102413412988551.html

 

[drizzle]

Are you Sunni or Shiite? And where do you life? I do know that within Sharia law what is mandatory, optional and forbidden very from region to region.

what?! Islam is one, and the vary you point out here as you predicted it [depends on where in the Islamic world do you live] is due to culture differences.

Well, a long time ago (pre Islamic Arabia), certain Arab tribes used to practice honor killing where the family of clans or tribe want control over the fertility of a woman. It is certainly frowned upon now but unfortunately, some habits do not pass with time.

http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm

you hit the point, Arab tribes [not all] don’t really bother if Islam reject this [or any other bad behavior] or not.

Bravo G01. You have fanatics for every belief and ideology. Whether it be politics, religion and sometimes even science can have individuals who stick by their ideas even after countless experiments prove that they are wrong. Twisting the words of religious books is an unfortunate but powerful way of gaining recruits who may be uneducated, not well versed in the ideas of that particular religion or wants an easy path to reward and glory.

Bravo to you too math_04, you must live among Arabs long enough to conclude this, which of the arabic food did you like the most?


to PFers, why are you people so negative? why do you insist to talk about this honor killing that you [not all] don’t even know about, stick to the topic read the title before you type here.

 

[berkeman]

to PFers, why are you people so negative? why do you insist to talk about this honor killing that you [not all] don’t even know about, stick to the topic read the title before you type here.

Well, in the US, we fought a long and bloody civil war over things like slavery. In the end, slavery was recognized as bad, and was eradicated from our culture. Why have arab communities not eradicated "honor killings" (idiotic unfair murder) from your cultures? That would seem to be a valid question under the OP. And would seem to be part of the motivation for the current Iranian protests...

 

[rootX]

Along with the honor killing, I think ancient practices like unequal treatment of women, role of religion in the politics/state laws, religious punishments should be eradicated either through economic or diplomatic methods. I don't think it is appropriate to accept/ignore those practices because they are in different culture. (I think UN well defines the way people of a nation should be treated)

I don't care about other cultural differences but it is just the above ones that I think are unacceptable.

 

[drizzle]

there are so many things that are unacceptable [in any culture] but they have to work it out their selves, any interference from the out wouldn’t really help [[look at Iraq now!]]

 

[berkeman]

there are so many things that are unacceptable [in any culture] but they have to work it out their selves, any interference from the out wouldn’t really help [[look at Iraq now!]]

Thank you. At least you are not defending the practices. That is one reason why I think this thread is valuable and useful, and should stay open.

 

[math_04]

Why have arab communities not eradicated "honor killings" (idiotic unfair murder) from your cultures?

Honor killings have been recognized as wrong but unfortunately, you still get families that practice them for varying reasons. There is no universal code in Arab culture that says honor killings are right and therefore comparing it to the fight against slavery is wrong. And for your information, honor killings are done across Asia.

Oh and drizzle, favorite dish has to be Kabsa, mixture of rice, meat and a bit of vegetables.

 

[berkeman]

Honor killings have been recognized as wrong but unfortunately, you still get families that practice them for varying reasons. There is no universal code in Arab culture that says honor killings are right and therefore comparing it to the fight against slavery is wrong. And for your information, honor killings are done across the Asia.

How exactly is the analogy wrong? One country/culture realizes that something that half of them is doing is fundamentally wrong. It escalates (well, there were many other causes of the US civil war, so I'm over-simplifying to try to make my point), and leads to civil war.

Where are the realization, escalation and solution to eliminate honor killings from arab culture? If you are reading the newspapers in arab countries, and not writing letters to the editor about this, you are part of the problem. That's what we do in democracies.

How much personal pain and anguish do you feel when you use the word "unfortunately"? Why don't you do something about it? Are you afraid?

 

[rootX]

Honor killings have been recognized as wrong but unfortunately, you still get families that practice them for varying reasons. There is no universal code in Arab culture that says honor killings are right and therefore comparing it to the fight against slavery is wrong.

What you suggest?
Ignore or accept honor killing practices and hope people themselves would abandon them one day?

I already posted a witch hunting practice in Africa to point out that these bad practices are not in Arab culture only.

 

[rootX]

[[look at Iraq now!]]

look at South Africa. I believe economic sanctions changed their culture (black discrimination).

 

[drizzle]

...Oh and drizzle, favorite dish has to be Kabsa, mixture of rice, meat and a bit of vegetables.

I bit you gain 5 kg after 1 week

 

[drizzle]

look at South Africa. I believe economic sanctions changed their culture (black discrimination).

your view, but not necessarily true, it took them almost the same time as Americans’ to figure out their [[mistake]], besides is it 100% obliterated?

 

[math_04]

How much personal pain and anguish do you feel when you use the word "unfortunately"? Why don't you do something about it? Are you afraid?

Of course I feel angry about it and sad and a whole host of other emotions. But the world is not a utopian paradise, there are always people who will do things contrary to moral teachings. What I have said is that there are families out there who practice honor killings and that there is very little we can do to change their minds, it is a rigid belief for those individuals. But the world certainly is changing, the younger generation are exposed to different ideas and while attempting to keep their cultural identity intact, they are certainly adverse to the idea that honor killings is part of some family tradition. Of course, I cannot speak for every young Arab but then again, there are discrepancies everywhere.

How exactly is the analogy wrong? One country/culture realizes that something that half of them is doing is fundamentally wrong. I

What you suggest?Ignore or accept honor killing practices and hope people themselves would abandon them one day?

Again, honor killings is not a part of Arab culture anymore. There are a few who practice it but they are very much in the minority. You seem to think honor killings is accepted in at least half of Arab families worldwide which is absurd. The notion that many Arab families practice it is wholly inaccurate There are harsher sentences nowadays in many Arab countries such as Jordan and Kuwait mainly due to pressure by the women there. Sothere are things being done and no one wants to ignore them.

 

[drizzle]

more to the point, it’s much less than 1% in the Arab world, now will you leave it to here, and let Arabs and Muslims know other things you know about them.

 

[ozymandias]

Interesting. Proper disclosure: I'm an Israeli, and while I'm an atheist I'm considered (being born to a Jewish mother) a Jew.

There are Jewish, Muslim and Christian Israelis, and I've met more than a few of each. For obvious reasons I don't come into contact with Arab Muslims because of our respective countries' hostilities.

I have a deep distrust towards religion, and that includes Judaism as well as Islam. I think people who practice religion tend to base their decisions on irrational factors, which makes them dangerous when put in positions of power. Therefore, while I don't dislike Muslims as a rule, I'm more than a bit distrustful a-priori toward them. This goes for orthodox Jews as well, mind you, as well as devout Christians.

As for Arabs, well - we're not the best of neighbors, are we? Because of the circumstances I'd initially be wary of any Arab I meet, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge there are plenty of rational, peaceful ones, and I don't think I associate anything bad with them (other than that some of them want me dead ).

I'm pretty sure religion, when not balanced by a secular state (e.g. European states), eventually runs rampant and does all sorts of horrible things. Therefore I don't trust most Middle Eastern countries (exemplified by the religiously-led Iran). Israel isn't very balanced either, unfortunately, but that's a different discussion for a different thread. The US, by the way, isn't too balanced either .

-----
Assaf
http://www.physicallyincorrect.com"

 

[drizzle]

do you know how many times is the name Moses mentioned in the Quran?
136 times
and how many times is the name Jesus mentioned in the Quran?
25 times
and Mohammed?
guess what? 4 times! [peace be upon them all]
I’m not trying to defend Islam but it is obvious, these numbers for sure indicate something! and don’t speak about religion/s unless you read and know about them.