What impact will a possible war with North Korea have on American troops?

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In summary, the conversation discusses the potential impact of a war outbreak on American troops and the concerns of someone in the reserves. It also mentions the military capabilities of North Korea and the possibility of an attack on a US warship. The conversation then delves into possible solutions and strategies for dealing with North Korea, including outsourcing the job to China and waiting for the regime to fall apart. The conversation also touches on North Korea's nuclear and ballistic missile programs and the political motives behind reports on their military capabilities. Finally, there is a debate about the likelihood of a war with North Korea and the potential outcome.
  • #71
Mu naught said:
I'm pretty sure no ship ever built has a hull "several meters" thick. Do you know how thick a meter is?

Sorry I was in a hurry to get this post up before dinner and misspoke. I meant to say several inches thick. But it still dose not take from the fact that 10+ inches of homogeneous cold rolled steel takes a tremendous amount of energy to punch through.

And yes a meter is approximately 3 feet.
 
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  • #72
Actually, that type of torpedo isn't designed to impact the hull and doesn't have a shaped-charge. In order to make it more compact, it uses a completely different principle to destroy a ship:

The torpedo steers itself directly under the ship, then explodes using a proximity fuse. The blast of the explosion essentially creates a large bubble under the ship, which causes the ship to snap in half under its own weight...exactly what happened to this ship. Example:

Most of the descriptions on the web seem to me to be a little inaccurate, but this one is close:
In examining Cheonan’s hull, of note was the absence of heat exposure or a hole of the sort normally caused by contact explosives. In other words, the lethal blow was delivered by a non-contact explosion occurring underneath the ship, generating a powerful shock wave and high-pressure gas bubble called a “bubble jet.” This bubble jet caused the ship repeatedly to rise and fall, until it snapped in two.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=37067



However, though not a shaped-charge, the warhead is cylindrical, not spherical and the detonator would be in the middle, so the blast goes outward in a cylindrical pattern. Either way, it is often surprising what survives such an explosion.
 
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  • #73
russ_watters said:
See...

USS Cole: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing
USS Stark: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31 )

I am far from pro Iran but, I would also like to add this for fairness...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655"
 
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  • #74
This whole scenario reminds me of the cold war, two conflicting ideologies squaring up to each other within one area. When this comes to a head i get the feeling it will become yet another proxy war.
 
  • #75
Borg said:
I am far from pro Iran but, I would also like to add this for fairness...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655"
There is a clear moral difference between a killing done by accident and one done on purpose, so that example does not belong in the presence of the other two [three].
 
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  • #76
russ_watters said:
Presumably, you are talking about the Iraq war. I don't think there is a better word to describe what happened to the Iraqi military than "stomped".

I was thinking more of Vietnam, actually. Ok so you perhaps didn't enter that war in as cocky a way as the post I replied to was being (in fact, you really got slowly dragged into it), but I don't think Americans would have expected to lose and to fail the mission. I would have thought that history would warn against the "I've got the biggest army therefore I can defeat anyone" attitude.
 
  • #77
It seems that fact that we try and "win the hearts and minds" is the real reason wars are extended as they are. We aren't just trying to win the war. We have already won the conventional war. We are taking a hand at nation building which is an unproven science. The only reason it appears to have worked after WW2 is that the world was war weary and the nations that were rebuilt were totally devastated and severely depopulated.

We can't fight wars as they were fought back then and still hold up in the court of public opinion.
 
  • #78
If you would like a peek at what is going on in North Korea right now, and the kind of messages Kim sends to his people; you can take a look http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm"

This is the real deal.
 
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  • #79
russ_watters said:
There is a clear moral difference between a killing done by accident and one done on purpose, so that example does not belong in the presence of the other two [three].

I did hesitate about posting that. However, the US diliberately shot at what they thought was an Iranian fighter. The accident was only in target identification, which ended up having much greater consequences. Granted, a fighter is not a naval vessel but, the death toll ended up being significant.
 
  • #80
russ_watters said:
There is a clear moral difference between a killing done by accident and one done on purpose, so that example does not belong in the presence of the other two [three].
Yes, though the two examples you listed had no connection to Iran, which was the original hypothetical. Also the Stark attack was very likely a mistake on the part the Iraqi pilot, mistaking the Stark for another vessel.
 
  • #81
From the site that Pattonias posted:
The European Regional Headquarters of the Pan-national Alliance for Korea's Reunification and the Society for Cooperation among Koreans in Germany in a joint statement on May 21 accused the south Korean puppet clique of distorting the truth about the sinking of a warship of its navy.
http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

Did this really occur on May 20-25th? I've heard of some countries (Mostly China) being skeptical about the attack but not on this kind of level. Reading this it's pretty mind-boggling how simple it is to put out false-news which will portray misinformation. It's like the North Koreans just pick up the paper and read the news or however they get fed this propaganda and read it just like I do, and it says pretty much the same sorts of things that it would if I read it, however it's the exact opposite.

I assume they have no way to verify this information (no internet, or censorship) so I'd have to say if I were in the position of a North Korean I'd be hard pressed to think that the South are friendly and not plotting with America against my nation. Regardless of how poor I am or how hungry I am. Maybe I think the situation is even worse in other parts of the world!

This is insane.
 
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  • #82
Here's another article:

The Committee for the Peaceful Reunification of Korea, accordingly, formally declares that from now on it will put into force the resolute measures to totally freeze the inter-Korean relations, totally abrogate the agreement on non-aggression between the north and the south and completely halt the inter-Korean cooperation.
8. All the issues arising in the inter-Korean relations will be handled under a wartime law.
http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201005/news25/20100525-06ee.html

With more talks of destruction to the South and about how the South has made everything up which is known by the world... Weird.

I just hope that these acts don't bring about even tougher times for the North Korean peoples. If their government is too afraid to go into all out war they should not make their people suffer more than what they alread do for absolutely no reason.

EDIT:
http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201005/news25/20100525-14ee.html
This guy died in the late 60s... Anyways I feel this is off topic, just interesting to see, thanks for that link Pattonias :-p
 
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  • #83
In a sharp escalation of tensions with South Korea, North Korea says it is discarding military procedures the two sides have agreed to follow for years to ensure a conflict does not get out of hand.

The general staff of the North Korean People's Army issued a notice Thursday dismantling a wide range of security guarantees it has observed for years.

Pyongyang says it will completely nullify a bilateral agreement with the South that was put in place to prevent clashes in waters west of the Korean peninsula.


Any thoughts folks? This is becoming serious.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/asia/North-Korea-Reneges-On-Naval-Agreement-with-South-95004154.html"
 
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  • #84
China has so far refused to condemn the North Korean sinking of the Corvette, and I think this is only encouraging NK to continue being so aggresive.
 
  • #85
I personally wouldn't be amazed if china sank that corvette...
 
  • #86
That is a scary thought. If China goes crazy and starts trying to destabilize it's own region everything will start to suck. I seriously doubt that they would do anything like that.

I do think that they may throw in there lot with North Korea in an attempt to ward off all out war. If they back North Korea, I don't think the SK or the US will want to risk another full on proxy war. It would make Iraq and Afganistan look like a cake walk.
 
  • #87
Pattonias said:
That is a scary thought. If China goes crazy and starts trying to destabilize it's own region everything will start to suck. I seriously doubt that they would do anything like that.

I do think that they may throw in there lot with North Korea in an attempt to ward off all out war. If they back North Korea, I don't think the SK or the US will want to risk another full on proxy war. It would make Iraq and Afganistan look like a cake walk.

If China ever did support NK in a fullout war I think it might actually start World War 3. I'm hardly inclined to think that the world would just sit around and watch as one of the worlds worst dictatorships leads a war with China against a free nation and peoples.

I don't think that'll ever happen, war in Korea? Yes, definitely. Will China support NK, highly skeptical. They are in my opinion more likely to to go to war against NK in order to revolutionize it with new communist government.

People need to undestand: China is not the same type of communist country it was 50 years ago, times have changed and China is actually a flourishing nation believe it or not. A lot of this depends on how the foreign world 'views' China, I've read many papers on this and they all concluded Yes, China does care now about being on good terms with the majority of the world. They just put up with NK, that doesn't mean they support their dictator, just they have to live with him there for now.
 
  • #88
zomgwtf said:
If China ever did support NK in a fullout war I think it might actually start World War 3. I'm hardly inclined to think that the world would just sit around and watch as one of the worlds worst dictatorships leads a war with China against a free nation and peoples.

I don't think that'll ever happen, war in Korea? Yes, definitely. Will China support NK, highly skeptical. They are in my opinion more likely to to go to war against NK in order to revolutionize it with new communist government.

People need to undestand: China is not the same type of communist country it was 50 years ago, times have changed and China is actually a flourishing nation believe it or not. A lot of this depends on how the foreign world 'views' China, I've read many papers on this and they all concluded Yes, China does care now about being on good terms with the majority of the world. They just put up with NK, that doesn't mean they support their dictator, just they have to live with him there for now.

I agree, the only reason they support North Korea at all is their proximity and the fact that they are "communist". They must want a regime change as much as anyone else does.

I'm thinking the Kim is getting impatient in his later years. He has wanted to unify Korea under one government and I think he wants to see this happen in his lifetime. If his command has any room to manuver at all, I wouldn't be surprised to see an attempted coup should a suicidal move be made on Kim's part. I don't see a coup being successful due to the fanatical devotion that Kim hold's over his people. He is revered almost like a god in his country.

They are not going to back off. I think that North Korea is seriously going to take this all the way. Look at their state news today.
http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm"
 
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  • #89
Pattonias said:
They are not going to back off. I think that North Korea is seriously going to take this all the way. Look at their state news today.
http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm"

One thing we have to remember is that the news isn't exactly an expression of the governments wishes for the nation. Its mostly propaganda to slander the other nations and make North Korea look like it's on top of things and not afraid of the rest of the world. I'm sure that the people caught wind of what's going on in their nation through underground sources which would then cause rumours to be spread around the country.

If however their 'godlike' dictator puts propaganda material in their news stating they are preparing for war and not afraid etc. then I think it will be most reassuring to the citizens and keep them from getting afraid/run away/stand up against the government for fear of being destroyed.

I'm not entirely convinced just yet that North Korea will take this back to a war. Things like this happen probably twice a year, they just don't gain media headline coverage. I do think this has been one of those 'worse' events in quite a long time though.
 
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  • #90
It's the sinking of a war ship that makes this so awful. The S. Koreans can not let it go unanswered for fear of emboldening the N. Koreans in the future. There is no sign of the N. Koreans either apologizing our backing down. I will concede that the NK news is trying to keep the people from panicking by putting up a strong front, but they are really trying to stir the war-fever right now.

At the moment, unless something very different occurs war appears inevitable.
 
  • #91
Pattonias said:
It's the sinking of a war ship that makes this so awful. The S. Koreans can not let it go unanswered for fear of emboldening the N. Koreans in the future. There is no sign of the N. Koreans either apologizing our backing down. I will concede that the NK news is trying to keep the people from panicking by putting up a strong front, but they are really trying to stir the war-fever right now.

At the moment, unless something very different occurs war appears inevitable.

This is true.

But:
They are kicking off war hysteria, openly advertising the projected naval maneuvers as a "demonstration of forces to cope with additional provocations of the north".
http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201005/news26/20100526-18ee.html

They also say the same thing about us, and in my mind it looks like in this case what they are saying is more true. It seems that we are going more for a 'war-hysteria' approach and that North Korea is preparing a defensive position. Just food for thought :-p
 
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  • #92
It'd difficult to imagine why the NK may have fired on the SK Corvette. If it was an accident, it could show poor training on the part of the NKoreans. If it was intentional, but not ordered by the government; then perhaps the discipline in the NKorean armed forces is slipping. Finally, if the NKorean government ordered the attack; perhaps Kim is really losing it. He may honetly believe that his country can stand up to the combined forces of the rest of the world.
 
  • #93
Pattonias said:
It'd difficult to imagine why the NK may have fired on the SK Corvette.[...]
No it is not difficult. NK has a history of opening fire on SK, kidnapping SK and Japanese citizens, firing long range missiles over other countries, counterfeiting foreign currencies, and exploding a nuclear weapon. NK is a racist and horrific country sized cult. Imagining how the koolaid gets gulped down is not at all difficult.
 
  • #94
What would be the impact if no steps were taken against NK?

NK already said that they would behave as if attacked should harsher sanctions be put in place.

If we do nothing, they will most likely become even more reckless. I think the NK government believes its own propaganda.
 
  • #95
Glennage said:
In a sharp escalation of tensions with South Korea, North Korea says it is discarding military procedures the two sides have agreed to follow for years to ensure a conflict does not get out of hand.

The general staff of the North Korean People's Army issued a notice Thursday dismantling a wide range of security guarantees it has observed for years.

Pyongyang says it will completely nullify a bilateral agreement with the South that was put in place to prevent clashes in waters west of the Korean peninsula.


Any thoughts folks? This is becoming serious.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/asia/North-Korea-Reneges-On-Naval-Agreement-with-South-95004154.html"

they want concessions. this is NK diplomacy at work. every few years, they get like this and rattle their cage until someone tosses in a bunch of fruit.
 
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  • #96
Has this died down now or should we expect more I haven't seen anything in the news today about it?
 
  • #98
The DPRK (NK, whatever you prefer) has not mobilized land forces or supply lines in a manner that would allow for an invasion. That would seem to indicate that this is going to be more hostility without a land war in Asia, for which I am profoundly grateful.
 
  • #99
Geigerclick said:
The DPRK (NK, whatever you prefer) has not mobilized land forces or supply lines in a manner that would allow for an invasion. That would seem to indicate that this is going to be more hostility without a land war in Asia, for which I am profoundly grateful.

From reading the NK news off their website it would appear they are on the offensive. Politically that is. Like you said thank goodness this isn't escalating into all out war.

NK has just been reporting on South Koeras military actions and exercises citing claims that South Koreans and other nations are also condemning their actions. (how true this is I'm not entirely sure). So it seems that instead of heading towards an all out war they are playing the propaganda game again, 'their evil' game.
 
  • #100
zomgwtf said:
From reading the NK news off their website it would appear they are on the offensive. Politically that is. Like you said thank goodness this isn't escalating into all out war.

NK has just been reporting on South Koeras military actions and exercises citing claims that South Koreans and other nations are also condemning their actions. (how true this is I'm not entirely sure). So it seems that instead of heading towards an all out war they are playing the propaganda game again, 'their evil' game.

Yeah, it looks like internal politics to enhance phobia of the west, and increase the chances for a smooth succession.
 
  • #101
I'm not concerned with war as much as North Korea's sanctions - Will we no longer enjoy the blessings of sunny weather from Kim Jong-il?Tasteless jokes aside, I really don't think that NK want to take on anyone. They wouldn't be able to keep their propaganda up while their troops are slaughtered. Kim Jong-il may be crazy, but he's not stupid.
 
  • #102
TubbaBlubba said:
I'm not concerned with war as much as North Korea's sanctions - Will we no longer enjoy the blessings of sunny weather from Kim Jong-il?


Tasteless jokes aside, I really don't think that NK want to take on anyone. They wouldn't be able to keep their propaganda up while their troops are slaughtered. Kim Jong-il may be crazy, but he's not stupid.

I hope you're right, and certainly that seems to be the case. The way this plays in NK is that an SK ship invaded NK (really contested) waters, and NK acted in self defense. Now they must put aside famine and misery and be even MORE patriotic... and in greater support for KJI's son. Hell, it could be the result of internal political tensions, real or perceived, of which we're not aware. Fortunately, the bottom line is that this does not seem to be the opening shot of a war.
 
  • #103


I'm sure it's been mentioned and linked already, but the Vice Guide to North Korea is a series of short documentary videos which really goes to show how far the propaganda brainwashing really goes there.
 
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  • #104
I speculate the first NK aggressive action in response to SK sanctions will be attempts to continue running NK shipping through SK waters from which they are about to be (already?) banned. That's high profile, antagonistic, and incremental action, which seems to fit the Pyongyang MO so far.
 
  • #105
This seems to be good news. I think NK will have to back down now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10201876.stm"

It seems China decided not to side with North Korea this time.
 
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