- #141
wuliheron
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It is the ineffable, that which cannot be put into words. That which cannot be said.
Originally posted by Messiah
If something lacks 'Everything', it must lack a definition.
Thank you for proving the point.
JMc
Originally posted by Mentat
What do you think it means, when you say "nothing"?
Originally posted by Messiah
The only thing which is paridoxical is trying to define the undefined.
Nothing in the abstract is undefined. That which lacks everything would also certainly lack a definition.
The only 'logical' definition (and logic REQUIRES definition) of 'nothing' is Zero or the logical equivalent of Ø.
Have you studied calculus?
When you integrate a differential, there is always an unknown or arbitrary constant in the result.
Logic is a derivative of reality. It loses a bit of definition in the translation of reality to logic.
Yes, the mind has limits. But any question (which does not have a faulty premise) which can be asked, can be answered.
Originally posted by Mentat
This whole time, you are referring to a null set, and naming it "nothing". I could name it "buttocks", and it wouldn't matter, because that's not what the word "buttocks" means, and it's not what the word "nothing" means.
A set is something, that means that the word "nothing" does not refer to a set.
There is no thing that truly "lacks everything". Take the 3rd and 4th words of the previous sentence, put them together, and you get a word that must meant (because of the previous sentence) something that does not exist.
Originally posted by wuliheron
It is the ineffable, that which cannot be put into words. That which cannot be said.
Originally posted by Messiah
APPLAUSE ! ! !
I think you are getting the idea. YES, nothing (in the abstract sense) doesn't exist. It is a fiction.
Mathematics is a QUANtitative analysis. There IS a logical definition of 'nothing' in mathematics. It is Ø. It can be +1+(-1). ANY countervalent values which have the logical value of Ø.
What I am trying to portray is the idea that there is a QUALatative equivalent of 'Ø' or nothing which can be +banana+(-banana). Matter and anti-matter. But the actual countervalent equivalence may be more complicated than a simple positive vs negative.
Have you browsed Theory of Reciprocity. The theory is WAY too long to post here.
Hang in there Mentat.
Originally posted by Mentat
You are missing the point. "Nothing" (as you refer to it), or the state of non-existence, obviously/logically does not exist. This means that there isn't anything for mathematics to try and quantify/measure/explain, on this topic. The number "0" is something. The empty set is something.
Actually, I got to go now .
Existence is not a 'state'. It is being, itself.
It is not a condition or a state of being.
Conditions or states of being are precipitated by processes.
Existence is not a process.
The fact or state of existing; being.
The fact or state of continued being; life: our brief existence on Earth.
Originally posted by wuliheron
quote:
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The fact or state of existing; being.
The fact or state of continued being; life: our brief existence on Earth.
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Originally posted by wuliheron
Existence is demonstrably paradoxical, that is, irrational. Saying existence just IS or, is Being itself is rhetorical nonsense.
Originally posted by wuliheron Saying it is not a condition, state of being, or process denies the very definition of the word.
Life is a condition, something temporary. Existence is not. When you die, the cosmic dust which comprises your body will continue to exist. And so will you - the thing inside which compiled and compells it - you will BE dead...but you will BE.
Existence is not a 'state'. It is being, itself.
It is not a condition or a state of being.
Conditions or states of being are precipitated by processes.
Existence is not a process.
Logic is derived from the laws of nature. The laws of nature are derived from the properties of all which exists. Existence is the very foundation of logic.
Ok - then what is YOUR definition
Originally posted by Messiah
Existence is not a 'state'. It is being, itself.
It is not a condition or a state of being.
Conditions or states of being are precipitated by processes.
Existence is not a process.
See you tomorrow?? (I like the mental excercise)
Originally posted by Mentat
First you say, "it (existence) is being".
Then you say, "it is not a state of being"
Is this not contradictory? Besides, you are just telling me what you don't think it is.
Def: EXISTENCE - To have a physical presence in the UniverseYou should try telling me what it is.
Originally posted by Messiah
Not contradictory.
Existences change in condition - position or configuration - and assume various 'states of being'.
In order for something to change or be changed it must exist. Change is a function of existence. I.e. - 'states of being' are derived from 'being', itself.
The two are obviously related, but very different - one is the derivative of the other.
Def: EXISTENCE - To have a physical presence in the Universe
Originally posted by Mentat
Oh, so concepts don't exist?
Read Wu Li's dictionary definition of "existence", in Heusden's thread - "Existence".
Originally posted by Messiah
Certainly concepts exist. They are physically present in the Universe, represented by a change in condition of the element or entity which conceives the concept. Its 'being' is changed and that change is physical.
They are not separate 'entities', but they can be shared with other elements/entities by communicating with them.
Originally posted by Mentat
Concepts are not physically present. The change in my brain (that results in my having concieved of something) is physically present, but the concept itself is not.
Originally posted by Mentat
Oh, so concepts don't exist?
Originally posted by Messiah
It is not possible to ‘be’ more than - or less than - a single entity. Multiple entities cannot share a single identity any more than they can simultaneously occupy the same space. The domain of each element stops at the boundary where the domain of another begins.
Originally posted by heusdens
What about the "split brain" syndrome? Is a person having a split brain/multiple personality, still one person? What do you call "entity" in this case. Each individual pesonality? Or each body.
It is one body, that in this cases has one or more minds, but not simputaniously. In the case of multiple personality, it might be the case each personality occupies it's own place in the brain.
Originally posted by heusdens
Of course concept exist, but they belong to another category of existence, that is dependend on the mind.
Look at it like this. We have a "real" flower. We can take a phot of it. Now we have a photograpic image of the flower. The image is not the real object, although it is a reality on it's own too, with different physical properties (f.i. it is 2-D and not 3-D, and it is made of paper and emulsion, not biological cells).
So, therefore we need two different and disinguishable sets or catagories of existence. The material existence itself, and the category of existence that depend on the mind.
We could argue that apart from these two categories of existence, there also needs to be a third one, that is defined as not being material existence, so not being physically there, and not being dependend on the mind.
It could be named the category of universals or truths. Like arithmetics. "Things" belong to this category, if they are not dependend on the mind, in other words, if all minds would cease to be, and reappear later in evolutionary history, the mind would "learn" or "discover" or "invent" these same truths.
Originally posted by Mentat
But the photograph of the flower exists, and so does the concept of a flower, that you've caused me to produce in my mind.
The thing is that complex brains (which are physical parts of the universe) produce minds (which are "programs" that are run on the "brain computer"), which in turn produce concepts. So, while concepts are not physical, they exist, and can be traced back to physical origins.
Originally posted by Netme
Everything that exists here has had to have been made before existence. The real question is what is before existence?
Originally posted by heusdens
Eveything that exists has only a temporal form or shape. Take for instance an apple. Now it is an apple. After some days, it will have changed, but still look an apple. In a couple of weeks, it has transformed completely, and ceased to be an apple.
Existence is in eternal change and motion.
The issue of "what came before existence" is unanswerable, or is better answered as "nothing".
(see also the thread: 'The Fundamental Question')
Originally posted by pelastration
Nothingness creates mass and energy.
This can be realized by a special , very simple, manifold.
Manifold = restructered nothingness.
Diversity comes with subquential similar manifolds or their inter-combinations.
Starting condition: Nothingness has a boundry (some call this the Void) which is unbreakable and infinite stretchable (cfr. tensegrite field of Buckminster)
Originally posted by Netme
Existence cannot change..
If something exists it can only change its physical or mental properties Either it exists or it does not exist. Whose to say that existence cannot exist within existence?And what came before our existence cannot be unanswerable seeing how we even exist at all. There must be a way to answer where we came from and by who. For example think about computers they function on operations that we have programed them to Our very existence is much like this except that we are the gods and computers our creation. Now if there was a way that computers could find out who we are we could use this to find out who our god is.
Originally posted by pelastration
Nothingness creates mass and energy.
This can be realized by a special , very simple, manifold.
Manifold = restructered nothingness.
Diversity comes with subquential similar manifolds or their inter-combinations.
Starting condition: Nothingness has a boundry (some call this the Void) which is unbreakable and infinite stretchable (cfr. tensegrite field of Buckminster)
Originally posted by pelastration
My postulate was: "Starting condition: Nothingness has a boundary (some call this the Void) which is unbreakable and infinite stretchable (cfr. tensegrite field of Buckminster)".
So the nothingness I am referring is an area that is surrounded by the void and - implicit - it can be pushed by forces behind the void (like a balloon-membrane can be pushed by your fingers). Even if there is a non-active medium inside such balloon that medium will become active by these external vibrations. This description uses standard semantics.
The pelastration concept - this special space curvature - shows the creation of a new dimension. Still the content stays identical in the totality.
The nothingness can also be a local restructured part (island) of what is behind the Void.
The moment that the void pelastrates itself can be: the point of singularity.
Suddenly from the Void (Hyperspace) appears a NEW DIMENSION : the start of our Universe.
As Stephen Hawkins explained: 'Because mathematics cannot really handle infinite numbers...there is a point in the universe where the general theory of relativity breaks down. Such a point is an example of what mathematicians call a singularity... all our theories of science break down at the big bang singularity, where the curvature of space-time is infinite. One may say that Time had a beginning at the Big Bang'.
And since you probably started laughing about those crazy pelastrations, read this: Michio Kaku (see below more): "The original 10 dimensional space-time finally "cracked" into two pieces, a four and a six dimensional universe. The universe made the "quantum leap" to another universe in which six of the 10 dimensions collapsed and curled up into a tiny ball, allowing the remaining four dimensional universe to explode outward at an enormous rate. The four dimensional universe (our world) expanded rapidly, creating the Big Bang, while the six dimensional universe wrapped itself into a tiny ball and shrunk down to infinitesimal size."
In the pelastration concept the original structure splits in a basic passive part (receptive tube) and the pelastrating second part (impact tube) that becomes double layered. 10 = 6 + 4
This is like the paradox of self-fertilization in old myths, in the symbol of the Uroboros and the paradox of the Trinity in several religions. Without wanting to hurt religious feeling or vision of others: God is totality: there is only one. There is however also the trinity: the Father (still behind the Void - Six dimensions), the Son ( the local manifestation in other dimensions - the four dimensions), and the Holy Spirit (the way to realize this - the universal manifold).
Without the aid of anthropomorphism we can now see a creation process or mechanism in which such trinity makes sense also for non religious people.
The Pelastration concept gives probably for the first time a glimpse how this point of singularity started.
De-pelastration= when the impact redraws this acts like a block-hole (shrinking and increasing density) till it disappears in a funnel (Kaku: "One puzzle, however, is that, according to Einstein's equations, the funnel of a black hole necessarily connects our universe with a parallel universe. Furthermore, if the funnel connects our universe with itself, then we have a "worm hole"
Look now to the design of the pelastration: a black hole.
Interesting:
Michio Kaku ( HyperSpace : A Scientific Odyssey ) : What Happened Before the Big Bang?
"One advantage to having a theory of all forces is that we may be able to resolve some of the thorniest, long-standing questions in physics, such as the origin of the universe, and the existence of "wormholes" and even time machines. The 10 dimensional superstring theory, for example, gives us a compelling explanation of the origin of the Big Bang, the cosmic explosion which took place 15 to 20 billion years ago, which sent the stars and galaxies hurling in all directions. In this theory, the universe originally started as a perfect 10 dimensional universe with nothing in it. In the beginning, the universe was completely empty. However, this 10 dimensional universe was not stable. The original 10 dimensional space-time finally "cracked" into two pieces, a four and a six dimensional universe. The universe made the "quantum leap" to another universe in which six of the 10 dimensions collapsed and curled up into a tiny ball, allowing the remaining four dimensional universe to explode outward at an enormous rate. The four dimensional universe (our world) expanded rapidly, creating the Big Bang, while the six dimensional universe wrapped itself into a tiny ball and shrunk down to infinitesimal size. This explains the origin of the Big Bang. The current expansion of the universe, which we can measure with our instruments, is a rather minor aftershock of a more cataclysmic collapse: the breaking of a 10 dimensional universe into a four and six dimensional universe."
Pelastration is maybe a bizarro approach but Michio Kaku again: "Given the fruitless search that has stumped the world's Nobel Prize winners for half a century, most physicists agree that the Theory of Everything must be a radical departure from everything that has been tried before. For example, Niels Bohr, founder of the modern atomic theory, once listened to Wolf gang Pauli's explanation of his version of the unified field theory. In frustration, Bohr finally stood up and said, "We are all agreed that your theory is absolutely crazy. But what divides us is whether your theory is crazy enough."
Originally posted by pelastration
My postulate was: "Starting condition: Nothingness has a boundary (some call this the Void) which is unbreakable and infinite stretchable (cfr. tensegrite field of Buckminster)".
So the nothingness I am referring is an area that is surrounded by the void and - implicit - it can be pushed by forces behind the void (like a balloon-membrane can be pushed by your fingers). Even if there is a non-active medium inside such balloon that medium will become active by these external vibrations. This description uses standard semantics.
The pelastration concept - this special space curvature - shows the creation of a new dimension. Still the content stays identical in the totality.
The nothingness can also be a local restructured part (island) of what is behind the Void.
The moment that the void pelastrates itself can be: the point of singularity.
Suddenly from the Void (Hyperspace) appears a NEW DIMENSION : the start of our Universe.
As Stephen Hawkins explained: 'Because mathematics cannot really handle infinite numbers...there is a point in the universe where the general theory of relativity breaks down. Such a point is an example of what mathematicians call a singularity... all our theories of science break down at the big bang singularity, where the curvature of space-time is infinite. One may say that Time had a beginning at the Big Bang'.
And since you probably started laughing about those crazy pelastrations, read this: Michio Kaku (see below more): "The original 10 dimensional space-time finally "cracked" into two pieces, a four and a six dimensional universe. The universe made the "quantum leap" to another universe in which six of the 10 dimensions collapsed and curled up into a tiny ball, allowing the remaining four dimensional universe to explode outward at an enormous rate. The four dimensional universe (our world) expanded rapidly, creating the Big Bang, while the six dimensional universe wrapped itself into a tiny ball and shrunk down to infinitesimal size."
In the pelastration concept the original structure splits in a basic passive part (receptive tube) and the pelastrating second part (impact tube) that becomes double layered. 10 = 6 + 4
This is like the paradox of self-fertilization in old myths, in the symbol of the Uroboros and the paradox of the Trinity in several religions. Without wanting to hurt religious feeling or vision of others: God is totality: there is only one. There is however also the trinity: the Father (still behind the Void - Six dimensions), the Son ( the local manifestation in other dimensions - the four dimensions), and the Holy Spirit (the way to realize this - the universal manifold).
Without the aid of anthropomorphism we can now see a creation process or mechanism in which such trinity makes sense also for non religious people.
The Pelastration concept gives probably for the first time a glimpse how this point of singularity started.
De-pelastration= when the impact redraws this acts like a block-hole (shrinking and increasing density) till it disappears in a funnel (Kaku: "One puzzle, however, is that, according to Einstein's equations, the funnel of a black hole necessarily connects our universe with a parallel universe. Furthermore, if the funnel connects our universe with itself, then we have a "worm hole"
Look now to the design of the pelastration: a black hole.
Interesting:
Michio Kaku ( HyperSpace : A Scientific Odyssey ) : What Happened Before the Big Bang?
"One advantage to having a theory of all forces is that we may be able to resolve some of the thorniest, long-standing questions in physics, such as the origin of the universe, and the existence of "wormholes" and even time machines. The 10 dimensional superstring theory, for example, gives us a compelling explanation of the origin of the Big Bang, the cosmic explosion which took place 15 to 20 billion years ago, which sent the stars and galaxies hurling in all directions. In this theory, the universe originally started as a perfect 10 dimensional universe with nothing in it. In the beginning, the universe was completely empty. However, this 10 dimensional universe was not stable. The original 10 dimensional space-time finally "cracked" into two pieces, a four and a six dimensional universe. The universe made the "quantum leap" to another universe in which six of the 10 dimensions collapsed and curled up into a tiny ball, allowing the remaining four dimensional universe to explode outward at an enormous rate. The four dimensional universe (our world) expanded rapidly, creating the Big Bang, while the six dimensional universe wrapped itself into a tiny ball and shrunk down to infinitesimal size. This explains the origin of the Big Bang. The current expansion of the universe, which we can measure with our instruments, is a rather minor aftershock of a more cataclysmic collapse: the breaking of a 10 dimensional universe into a four and six dimensional universe."
Pelastration is maybe a bizarro approach but Michio Kaku again: "Given the fruitless search that has stumped the world's Nobel Prize winners for half a century, most physicists agree that the Theory of Everything must be a radical departure from everything that has been tried before. For example, Niels Bohr, founder of the modern atomic theory, once listened to Wolf gang Pauli's explanation of his version of the unified field theory. In frustration, Bohr finally stood up and said, "We are all agreed that your theory is absolutely crazy. But what divides us is whether your theory is crazy enough."