What types of things do you get second opinions on in life?

[kyphysics]

What types of things do you get second opinions on in life?

And, do you think humans are obligated to tell someone (for whom they are asking an opinion) they are getting multiple opinions on something?
--E.g., I get a HVAC fixing opinion from Company A. I decide I want to see if C-A is lying to me and I talk to Company B. Am I ever*** obligated to tell either C-A and/or C-B that I am getting multiple opinions?

Do you think businesses already assume we all frequently get second opinions?

***I starred this, b/c what if my second opinion takes time to get and I'm having to tell C-A some reason for why I haven't made a possibly seemingly easy final decision yet? C-A may start to wonder what is going on, maybe speculate that I'm not serious, think I'm being unusually slow and inconsiderate, etc. I might have to lie to C-A if I don't won't C-A to know about C-B.

Fire away your insights boys and girls! What do you think?

 

[DaveC426913]

What types of things do you get second opinions on in life?

Anything that's complex enough such that I am not comfortable with my own knowledge.
Shoot, no. You mean a third opinion.

And, do you think humans are obligated to tell someone (for whom they are asking an opinion) they are getting multiple opinions on something?

Absolutely not.

Do you think businesses already assume we all frequently get second opinions?

If they're smart they will. Good businesses will encourage it.

***I starred this, b/c what if my second opinion takes time to get and I'm having to tell C-A some reason for why I haven't made a possibly seemingly easy final decision yet? C-A may start to wonder what is going on, maybe speculate that I'm not serious, think I'm being unusually slow and inconsiderate, etc. I might have to lie to C-A if I don't won't C-A to know about C-B.

Just tell them you are getting other opinions.

If I want to be vague about it, I tell them I am "ruminating". That gives them pause.

BTW, It's one thing for a business to check in with you, even tell you they can;t hold their quote for longer than X. It's a very different thing if they are not happy that you are taking your time (especially if it's because you are getting second opinions). Every business of integrity wants you to be comfortable with your final decision and will encourage you to get second opinions.

If a business tries to pressure you or gets unhappy, that should be a big red flag, and you should consider taking your patronage elsewhere.

 

[kyphysics]

Just tell them you are getting other opinions. If I want to be more vague about it, I tell them I am "ruminating". That gives them pause.

Yeah, some business may charge you an inspection/service call fee if you tell them you're using them for a second opinion. I've found that if they think you are going to them first, then they give you a "free" inspection/estimate (hoping to land your business for the big deal/contract).

 

[DaveC426913]

Yeah, some business may charge you an inspection/service call fee if you tell them you're using them for a second opinion. I've found that if they think you are going to them first, then they give you a "free" inspection/estimate (hoping to land your business for the big deal/contract).

True, and that's OK.

Although, by the time they're calling you to ask how it's going and you tell them you're getting second opinions, that "charge a fee" ship will have sailed. They can't retroactively charge you for something they didn't tell you up front. If they tried to, that would be a red flag.

 

[kyphysics]

True, and that's OK.

Although, if they're calling you to ask how it's going and you tell them you're getting second opinions they can't exactly retroactively charge you for something they've already done gratis. If they tried to, that would be a red flag.

Soooo, NOT telling someone you're using them for a second opinion (hell, maybe third or fourth. . .), b/c you don't want them to charge you a fee is STILL NOT lying, right? I mean. . .I wouldn't be telling them, "You are my first/only opinion." Yet, I am purposely not telling them for a financial incentive.

 

[kyphysics]

If they're smart they will. Good businesses will encourage it.

Just tell them you are getting other opinions.

If I want to be vague about it, I tell them I am "ruminating". That gives them pause.

BTW, It's one thing for a business to check in with you, even tell you they can;t hold their quote for longer than X. It's a very different thing if they are not happy that you are taking your time (especially if it's because you are getting second opinions). Every business of integrity wants you to be comfortable with your final decision and will encourage you to get second opinions.

If a business tries to pressure you or gets unhappy, that should be a big red flag, and you should consider taking your patronage elsewhere.

I have literally only seen ONE company encourage an outside opinion. And you're correct in implying that is a very good sign of integrity. Many actually start the constant calling/pressure sales tactics soon. Some get "pushy" too.

It's probably slightly off-topic, but I would say the pushy types aren't always wrong in what they're trying to sell/recommend to you. It's just that their tactics are not indicative of trustworthiness and they probably hurt themselves. Some, of course, really are manipulative and aren't looking out for you.

 

[Baluncore]

"Marketing" attempts to "sell" you, a complete persuasive argument. That makes you feel so confident, that you do not need a second opinion. It may be all lies and manipulation.

"Due diligence" requires that you obtain other opinions, and that you do NOT advise the original source, of your alternative sources of information. That gives you the option to verify the offer, and later negotiate a discount on the initial RRP or asking price.

A majority of people do not have the evaluation skills needed to select a product. They inefficiently buy a "brand" that is acceptable to their social peers. Brand loyalty is a liability to those customers, proportional to the value of the brand to the supplier. Those brand loyal buyers, actively avoid getting a second opinion, as that would cause stress, and reduce their confidence.

It takes an "influencer" to break brand loyalty.

 

[russ_watters]

What types of things do you get second opinions on in life?

And, do you think humans are obligated to tell someone (for whom they are asking an opinion) they are getting multiple opinions on something?
--E.g., I get a HVAC fixing opinion from Company A. I decide I want to see if C-A is lying to me and I talk to Company B. Am I ever*** obligated to tell either C-A and/or C-B that I am getting multiple opinions?

Do you think businesses already assume we all frequently get second opinions?

They are '"bids" or "quotes", not just second opinions. And you don't have to tell anyone unless you think it adds negotiating leverage. Some may not like it, but that's life; you're the one with the checkbook.

 

[DaveC426913]

Soooo, NOT telling someone you're using them for a second opinion (hell, maybe third or fourth. . .), b/c you don't want them to charge you a fee is STILL NOT lying, right? I mean. . .I wouldn't be telling them, "You are my first/only opinion." Yet, I am purposely not telling them for a financial incentive.

Sorry, I don't follow. I'm not seeing any dishonesty or ill-intent.

You're not obliged to tell them anything. Where does lying come into it? It's certainly not "financial incentive" on my part.

If a company gives an opinion (OP said "opinion" not explicitly "inspection") for no charge, it is a bid for your business. No self-respecting company would just assume they've hooked you unless that's agreed upon.

I'm really not seeing any dishonesty, ill-intent or subterfuge here. It's possible you are envisioning a different scenario than I am.

 

[DaveC426913]

They are '"bids" or "quotes", not just second opinions.

OP did not say that.

I feel like I've been the butt of a bait-and-switch.

OP lured me in with "opinion" and then seems to elaborated with "quote" and "inspection" and then implied my initial view on the matter was ... under-handed?

 

[jack action]

You shouldn't see this as getting "opinions" but getting "quotes". It is not because C-B says the exact same things as C-A that you have to go with C-A. You may still prefer C-B for the job.

Not only I wouldn't hide the fact I am calling many businesses, but I would make sure they understand they are in competition with others so they give me the best solution - not necessarily the cheapest - to my problem.

Sometimes the last company I contact can offer something completely different from the previous ones, or they can bring negative points about solutions from other companies (or the companies themselves). This could be very time-consuming to call back the previous companies to get their counterpoints. So I often tell the first companies I call that I WILL contact their competitors and they may offer me other solutions, so now is the time to tell me why these solutions - I don't know what they are but they should - wouldn't be good for me or to give me the dirt about their competitors if there is any.

 

[kyphysics]

Sorry, I don't follow. I'm not seeing any dishonesty or ill-intent.

You're not obliged to tell them anything. Where does lying come into it? It's certainly not "financial incentive" on my part.

If a company gives an opinion (OP said "opinion" not explicitly "inspection") for no charge, it is a bid for your business. No self-respecting company would just assume they've hooked you unless that's agreed upon.

I'm really not seeing any dishonesty, ill-intent or subterfuge here. It's possible you are envisioning a different scenario than I am.

Sorry, I was writing that quickly on the fly right before driving to my uncle's house, so I was a bit rushed in how I worded things. Yeah, I agree with you.

No intent to deceive, but just don't feel I have an obligation to disclose how many opinions I'm getting. But, lastly, I sometimes do intentionally not mention other opinions, b/c I find they do away with a service charge.

But, I also agree we can treat each consultation as an independent bid. Sorry for quickly worded confusion potentially earlier.

 

[kyphysics]

OP did not say that.

I feel like I've been the butt of a bait-and-switch.

OP lured me in with "opinion" and then seems to elaborated with "quote" and "inspection" and then implied my initial view on the matter was ... under-handed?

No, sorry about my sloppy language, DC. My way of writing there was me "thinking aloud" and verifying that MY OWN intentions were not "lying." So, when I said I often intentionally don't tell others about getting multiple opinions and part of that is due to knowing a company won't charge me a service fee for coming out, I was just making sure this doesn't seem intentionally wrong in any way. Sorry about the wording and "thinking aloud" style of writing!!

 

[JT Smith]

For me the answer is that it depends not just on the "types of things" but also how much time and effort I'm willing to expend for a better outcome. For example, if it's a critical healthcare decision I'm more inclined to invest energy into getting a better sense of my options. But for HVAC? It's probably the case that most of those businesses will take advantage of you. You may need to do a lot of searching to get good service at a fair price.

Example: I had some garage door work done last year and I called 7-8 places for quotes. They all had the same story. When the guy showed up the story changed. I could tell he was used to this game. He gave me a price that he said was "more than fair" -- about 100% more. I could have refused and had someone else come out (and then maybe someone else after that, etc.) but my time mattered a lot more. In some other circumstance I would have sent the guy packing and kept trying. Or did the work myself. I could have done that, it just would have taken me a lot longer. But in this case I got out the jar of Vaseline instead.

 

[kyphysics]

But for HVAC? It's probably the case that most of those businesses will take advantage of you. You may need to do a lot of searching to get good service at a fair price.

Example: I had some garage door work done last year and I called 7-8 places for quotes. They all had the same story. When the guy showed up the story changed. I could tell he was used to this game. He gave me a price that he said was "more than fair" -- about 100% more. I could have refused and had someone else come out (and then maybe someone else after that, etc.) but my time mattered a lot more. In some other circumstance I would have sent the guy packing and kept trying. Or did the work myself. I could have done that, it just would have taken me a lot longer. But in this case I got out the jar of Vaseline instead.

re: HVAC - I got a quote of $300 for a 45-min. inspection (not including work that may need to be done). I declined and am using a free inspection and an $80 inspection one (from two very highly rated companies).

re: "it depends" - That's a good perspective to have. Every now and then, time is more important than pricing. When I'm busy and don't have time (or energy) to prepare my own food, I'll order out and pay a premium. If I'm rushed, I'm not driving even an extra 5-6 minutes. I'll stop immediately to pick up food nearby that is "acceptable" at whatever price. Same principle may apply to these contracting situations.

I never call "7-8 places" though. I Google review search them and weed out very poor ones (below 4 stars) and then start digging into the good ones (by FIRST reading their lowest ratings). I look for whether or not management responds. If management is rude back to a reviewer, I may weed them out. If management actually acknowledges a mistake, apologizes, and seems to do the right thing, then that is often a huge big plus for me. I don't mind an occasional mishap, but if management handles it well, that gives me trust and peace of mind in them. When looking at the worst reviews, I look for stories where there is verified/seemingly trustworthy evidence of the complaint and to see if it seems like there was a culture of negligence or incompetence.

Good reviews are good to have too. But, a company's true colors often shows when something goes wrong - not when it goes right (as it's easy to take credit and we are supposed to have things go right to begin with).

Then, there is the person-to-person (whether by phone or in-person meeting) "smell test." I want to see if they are considerate and seemingly honest. I helped my dad (very sick atm) hire a small contractor to do work on some small handyman tasks a few months ago and the guy's employee had so many face tattoos that I pretty much assumed he was a former prisoner/gang member. No non-gang member has that many face tattoos and of those sort (like the star or tear under an eye - which symbolizes you've killed a person). He was SUPER shady (looking through my trash/letters), charging his phone w/o permission, and asking some personal financial questions (I'm like NOOOO I'm not telling you - A STRANGER - my personal financial details!!).

We later found that crew botched the job and we had to pay someone ~$300 to fix something they messed up. They will never be hired again and the only reason we used them was because the main guy was an acquaintance to my father.

 

[gmax137]

The only "dishonest" scenario I can think of is, if you ask company-X to prepare a proposal and quote, but you know full well you are going to award the job to company-A. We used to call this a "check bid." If a customer did this more than a couple of times, we stopped bidding their jobs. This is more in the realm of commercial projects, where the customer's purchasing procedures require them to get several quotes.

 

[JT Smith]

I never call "7-8 places" though. I Google review search them and weed out very poor ones (below 4 stars) and then start digging into the good ones (by FIRST reading their lowest ratings).

I also used the internet. But reviews are biased and sometimes forged and have to be taken with a grain of salt. Normally I wouldn't have just called one or two places but it was weird how they all gave almost the exact same answer, the same quote, the same everything. As if I was accidentally calling the same place repeatedly. I had this sense that I was probably going to be gamed and, as it turned out, I was.

A couple of weeks later our water heater started to go and I called the first plumber on the list, accepted his verdict that the water heater was toast, bought a new one from him without researching the prices, and had them install it later that day. It was expensive. Was it a ripoff or the same as what it would have cost from somewhere else? I don't know. I don't want to know. I'm happy we have hot water.

When on air TV went digital years ago we lived without television (we watched a lot of videos on our old analog box) for over a year as I painstakingly researched TVs. I spent countless hours on the internet and at the local Best Buy, working out what the best solution was for us.

Which is crazier? Spending a year buying a TV or getting a water heater from the first plumber that google maps pulled up?

It just depends.

 

[kyphysics]

I also used the internet. But reviews are biased and sometimes forged and have to be taken with a grain of salt.

Yes, we need to be careful.

A plumber once offered me 15% off if I'd write him a good review on the spot. I declined (he had some attitude issues in how he spoke to me that I did not like and wasn't entirely accurate in his assessment at first, so I didn't feel comfortable giving him a 5/5, which is what he specifically asked for).

 

[kyphysics]

Something I've noticed with "repair, maintenance, and inspection" people. They take a 20-minute look at things and then write you up a proposal to spend thousands of dollars to fix stuff. Rarely do they say: "Everything looks great. Your inspection was free today. No need to spend any money on anything right now."

I've been looking over the records at my dad's house and he got a termite treatment several years ago and within three years the termite inspector of a different company quoted him to do another one for $1,500. He KNEW about the termite inspection 3 years prior and that those last 8-10 years. He found no evidence of active termites and STILL quoted a treatment. When we called the office, they said it was preventative and it's good to get one every few years.

a.) Is it the norm for these inspectors to just sell you on stuff you may or may not need? If you really don't need anything done, would these guys typically honestly tell you? Or, should we think of them as sales people who are looking out for their own well-being?

b.) Is it the norm to take just 15-20 minutes to inspect and then propose thousands of dollars worth of work w/o going over things in good detail on-site? Sure, I can call them later, but I've noticed these guys come in and then get out (they say they'll write you up an estimate and send it to your email later that night). They don't take a ton of time to explain things. Had an HVAC guy come and propose $11K of duct replacement even though the old ducts worked, but looked old.

He said everything call fall apart in 6 months if we didn't get the replacement ducts. I am very skeptical. . .and now have to do the research.

 

[gmax137]

should we think of them as sales people who are looking out for their own well-being?

yes, for the most part

 

[jack action]

They take a 20-minute look at things and then write you up a proposal to spend thousands of dollars to fix stuff.

Being the devil's advocate, you need to see it from the other point of view too.

First, there is often more than one way to do maintenance. There are mostly two:

1. Don't take a chance, change everything regularly;
2. Extend the part's life as much as possible.

Both methods can be valid; choosing one over the other really depends on how comfortable one is with taking risks.

When hiring someone to do the work for you, you hire someone who shares your philosophy, or at least understands it. Otherwise, you will probably assume the person is not doing his job correctly. But when looking for someone you trust, you shouldn't assume people not telling you what you like to be simply ripping you off. They may be just thinking differently.

That being said, in recent years, consumers are often too demanding of professionals: Make sure it costs as little as possible, but they don't want to assume any risk of failure or discomfort. The defense mechanism of professionals - especially the young ones with less experience - has been to always use method #1: Change everything regularly. This way:

• the client never gives a bad review because it doesn't work (everything is new)
• or is suing you because the job wasn't done to the highest standards;
• and if the client accepts the high price, he can't complain either;
• and you don't have to argue or lose yourself in explanations with the client: take it or leave it.

Win-win-win-win for the professionals.