Who will turn the dark and painful page ?

[mgb_phys]

An obvious solution suggests itself.
You just need the above people, a few barrels of water and an out-of-the-way prison somewhere in the middle east.
If under 'questioning' they say it is torture then it's proved and you ban it.
If they say it isn't, then either they are lying in which case the technique doesn't work and you abandon it, or they are telling the truth - in which case you can keep doing it to them.
Either way it's fun for all the family and would make a great reality TV series

 

[mheslep]

... The Bush administration wants to "legally" use torture, so they actively seek out legal opinions that give them that "right" even though many high-ranking appointees and military personnel are voicing opposition.

which is exactly what happened in the decision to release the legal memos, opposition from CIA directors, Nat. Sec. staff, etc, etc.

Then when they have their fig-leaf of questionable legal opinion justifying torture, and they put the system in place, they allow some high-ranking members of the opposition to have access to some of the "finished product" without disclosing the background and dissenting opinions, under the threat of treason if those "secret" briefings are leaked... well you can see where this is going.

'Under the threat of treason'? Yes I can see this is pure fabrication on your part.

Pelosi and other Democrats who got briefings should demand that their briefings be declassified so that the public can see the differences between what was going on in Bush/Cheney internal memos and legal opinions, and what they disclosed to the Democrats in their briefings. Darth Cheney and Bush the Incompetent and their immoral crowd have damaged the stature of the US in the world more than all the secret wars and "dissapearings" in Central and South America combined.

Comparing mass murders in Latin America to water boarding? Please.

 

[LowlyPion]

Although the waterboard constitutes a threat of imminent death, prolonged mental harm must nonetheless result to violate the statutory prohibition on infliction of severe mental pain or suffering.

... Specific Intent To violate the statute, an individual must have the specific intent to inflict severe pain or suffering. Because specific intent is an element of the offense, the absence of specific intent negates the charge of torture.

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_08012002_bybee.pdf

So Bybee figures that as long as you don't mean to hurt someone, or cause them any long term mental stress, i.e so long as you have a pure heart, you can pretty much torture the bejesus out of someone and not fall under 18 USC. § 2340.

 

[turbo]

'Under the threat of treason'? Yes I can see this is pure fabrication on your part.

If a government official releases top-secret information (which might have been classified for any reason, including protecting Cheney's preference of ketchup) they can and will be charged with treason.

 

[drankin]

If a government official releases top-secret information (which might have been classified for any reason, including protecting Cheney's preference of ketchup) they can and will be charged with treason.

Not correct. Take a look at the Constitution, Article III Section 3.

On October 11, 2006, a federal grand jury issued the first indictment for treason against the United States since 1952, charging Adam Yahiye Gadahn for videos in which he spoke supportively of al-Qaeda. -Wikipedia-

 

[LowlyPion]

If a government official releases top-secret information (which might have been classified for any reason, including protecting Cheney's preference of ketchup) they can and will be charged with treason.

If not in fact, then surely the Hannity-Beck Axis of Right Wing propaganda would have been unleashed with a terrible fury. And in addition to any Rove directed publicity fusillade, I'd think that the real casualty of any disclosure or dissent against whatever, no matter how grievous and inconsistent with the values of the Republic, would have been that the power hungry shepherds of the Republic then in power would have likely used it as an excuse to just act without disclosure of any sort.

 

[WhoWee]

If not in fact, then surely the Hannity-Beck Axis of Right Wing propaganda would have been unleashed with a terrible fury. And in addition to any Rove directed publicity fusillade, I'd think that the real casualty of any disclosure or dissent against whatever, no matter how grievous and inconsistent with the values of the Republic, would have been that the power hungry shepherds of the Republic then in power would have likely used it as an excuse to just act without disclosure of any sort.

I really wanted to respond...but Hannity just started...Huckabee is on...

 

[LowlyPion]

Document: Military Agency Referred to 'Torture,' Questioned Its Effectiveness
The military agency that provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects referred to the application of extreme duress as "torture" in a July 2002 document sent to the Pentagon's chief lawyer and warned that it would produce "unreliable information."

... "It's part of a pattern of squelching dissent," said Levin, who added that there were other instances in which internal reviews of detainee treatment were halted or undercut. "They didn't want to hear the downside."

A former administration official said the National Security Council, which was briefed repeatedly that summer on the CIA's planned interrogation program by George J. Tenet, then director of central intelligence, and agency lawyers, did not discuss the issues raised in the attachment. Tenet declined comment through a spokesman.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403171.html

The date on the report is prior to Bybee issuing his guide on how to beat 18 USC. § 2340.

 

[LowlyPion]

Looks like Bybee may not be in a good place.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403888.html

Maybe if he is a man of conscience he will do the right thing and resign given his participation in helping to justify this policy.

Surely he can't think the Republicans are returning to power any too soon, and even if they did, I can't imagine that he could expect advancement in the Judicial system.

 

[WhoWee]

Looks like Bybee may not be in a good place.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR2009042403888.html

Maybe if he is a man of conscience he will do the right thing and resign given his participation in helping to justify this policy.

Surely he can't think the Republicans are returning to power any too soon, and even if they did, I can't imagine that he could expect advancement in the Judicial system.

It's funny how Patrick Leahy positions himself...Bush isn't doing enough...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/24/AR2008022401668.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/congress/2004_h/040127-leahy.htm

BUT, not 1 comment about interrogation techniques...or "torture"?
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/refer...index.html?scp=1-spot&sq=patrick leahy&st=cse

 

[LowlyPion]

It's funny how Patrick Leahy positions himself...Bush isn't doing enough...

I'd say given the mushroom farm approach to torture disclosures - feed congress BS and keep them in the dark - has likely created a number of misunderstandings about just how calculated and crass the Bush Cheney approach to subverting and ignoring Federal Law would have been.

Distracting with Leahy for any of this is quite a stretch. A red herring.

 

[WhoWee]

I'd say given the mushroom farm approach to torture disclosures - feed congress BS and keep them in the dark - has likely created a number of misunderstandings about just how calculated and crass the Bush Cheney approach to subverting and ignoring Federal Law would have been.

Distracting with Leahy for any of this is quite a stretch. A red herring.

Did you read the post? I said that he didn't mention interogation techniques in any of his communications until now. As head of the Judicial committee, why wasn't he briefed?

As for the mushroom analysis...got any specific information...BS implies someone lied to Congress...do you have any specifics on the BS?

 

[LowlyPion]

Did you read the post? I said that he didn't mention interogation techniques in any of his communications until now. As head of the Judicial committee, why wasn't he briefed?

As for the mushroom analysis...got any specific information...BS implies someone lied to Congress...do you have any specifics on the BS?

I would expect that the Senate Armed Services and the Senate Intelligence Committees would have been briefed about such matters. Since these memos have only just now been released, it was clear that the Bush Administration had no intention of sharing their "legal" foundation for their actions, and revealing how crudely they were misapplying the law.

As to lying, ... anytime they ever said they had a legal foundation for their "enhanced" interrogation techniques, they were lying. This is evidenced by the Bush Justice Department itself rescinding these memos after determining the shoddy basis that they were employing to provide this fig leaf for the administration's actions.

 

[LowlyPion]

Interesting piece in the NYT:

Yet we still shrink from the hardest truths and the bigger picture: that torture was a premeditated policy approved at our government’s highest levels; that it was carried out in scenarios that had no resemblance to “24”; that psychologists and physicians were enlisted as collaborators in inflicting pain; and that, in the assessment of reliable sources like the F.B.I. director Robert Mueller, it did not help disrupt any terrorist attacks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/opinion/26rich.html
My emphasis.

 

[WhoWee]

Interesting piece in the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/opinion/26rich.html
My emphasis.

The NY Times is now using a television show to provide validity for their reporting?

 

[LowlyPion]

Newsweek talks about how unnecessary the torture was anyway.

‘We Could Have Done This the Right Way’
How Ali Soufan, an FBI agent, got Abu Zubaydah to talk without torture.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089

 

[WhoWee]

Newsweek talks about how unnecessary the torture was anyway.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089

Did Newsweek run any stories in the 2 years after September 11, 2001 stating how important it would be to protect/respect the rights and dignity of captured terror suspects...or question any tactics being used?

Again, hind-sight is 20/20.

 

[T.S.Morgan]

Did Newsweek run any stories in the 2 years after September 11, 2001 stating how important it would be to protect/respect the rights and dignity of captured terror suspects...or question any tactics being used?

Again, hind-sight is 20/20.

Of course they didn't , as we were attacked by terrorists that want to kill us.After gaining info from the captured terrorists , The Liberty Tower in Los Angelas is still there instead of being a hole in the ground like the World Trade Center.Ask Obama to release the memos speaking of what the "torture" obtained.
But now , 8 years later...Newsweek has adopted a pre 911 veiw. Hind-sight is not 20/20

 

[LowlyPion]

Did Newsweek run any stories in the 2 years after September 11, 2001 stating how important it would be to protect/respect the rights and dignity of captured terror suspects...or question any tactics being used?

Again, hind-sight is 20/20.

That's pretty irrelevant. This article citation serves to demonstrate that the administration fabricated documents even of the great intelligence successes was fabricated as justification for their illegalities.

What relevance is it that Newsweek did or didn't uncover something 6 years ago about the commission of these acts?

 

[WhoWee]

Lest we forget...

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-83319641.html
See more articles from Newsweek

Our Worst Nightmare.(September 11, 2001 attacks)(Brief Article)

Article from:
Newsweek
Article date:
September 13, 2001
More results for:
newsweek sept 11 2001 | Copyright informationCOPYRIGHT 2001 Newsweek, Inc. All rights reserved. Any reuse, distribution or alteration without express written permission of Newsweek is prohibited. For permission: www.newsweek.com. This material is published under license from the publisher through the Gale Group, Farmington Hills, Michigan. All inquiries regarding rights should be directed to the Gale Group. (Hide copyright information)

September 11, 2001

Nothing like this has ever happened to America before. With chilling skill, terrorists struck at our heart last Tuesday, hijacking commercial jets, then crashing into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon--cold-blooded murder on a mass scale. The human toll is beyond imagining, the psychic costs difficult to calculate. We always thought we were safe. We were wrong.

United Flight 175, speeds toward its target shortly after 9 a.m. Tens of thousands of people worked in the twin towers.

fire, more than the impact, caused the towers to ... "

Newsweek would not have published an article in 2001 or 2002 discussing "the right wat to interrogate a suspect"...that is what makes it relevant.

 

[LowlyPion]

Newsweek would not have published an article in 2001 or 2002 discussing "the right wat to interrogate a suspect"...that is what makes it relevant.

The interrogation Memos are dated from August of 2002, nearly a year after the article, when the Bush Administration was casting about for ways to implicate Al Queada for their apparently planned war with Iraq the coming spring.

The more that we know about Bush Cheney, the more it looks to me like obliterating Iraq was their original agenda, actual proof or fabricated proof or no.

 

[Alfi]

The interrogation Memos are dated from August of 2002, nearly a year after the article, when the Bush Administration was casting about for ways to implicate Al Queada for their apparently planned war with Iraq the coming spring.

The more that we know about Bush Cheney, the more it looks to me like obliterating Iraq was their original agenda, actual proof or fabricated proof or no.

I'm glad you said it. I have believed that (in bold) part of your comments for years now.

 

[WhoWee]

The interrogation Memos are dated from August of 2002, nearly a year after the article, when the Bush Administration was casting about for ways to implicate Al Queada for their apparently planned war with Iraq the coming spring.

The more that we know about Bush Cheney, the more it looks to me like obliterating Iraq was their original agenda, actual proof or fabricated proof or no.

This may surprise you LP, but I have no doubt in my mind Bush wanted Iraq. On the other hand, I'm not sure Clinton wouldn't have done something similar...Hussein provoked him repeatedly.

To be honest, I always thought Bush would push on to Tehran...they have the good oil.

 

[LowlyPion]

This may surprise you LP, but I have no doubt in my mind Bush wanted Iraq. On the other hand, I'm not sure Clinton wouldn't have done something similar...Hussein provoked him repeatedly.

To be honest, I always thought Bush would push on to Tehran...they have the good oil.

Of course he wanted Iraq. Saddam got the better of his Daddy. And this was likely his chance to find some way, any way, to do better than Dad did. I think Bush is so predictably banal. The real surprise to me would have been if he had actually exercised statesmanship. But alas, those skills were apparently above his abilities. Sadly, he was in tune with Cheney's dark visions, to the detriment of the Nation.

Given more time I have no doubt that he and Cheney would have thrilled to go to Tehran as well. Never mind the consequences, or the lack of justification, and the radicalization of the world that illegal action would have resulted in.

 

[LowlyPion]

Carl Levin sheds some light on these documents that Cheney has been calling to have released alleging that torture saved lives.

Levin Calls Cheney A Liar On Torture
By Eric Kleefeld - May 28, 2009, 6:39PM
... Levin said: "But those classified documents say nothing about the numbers of lives saved, nor do the documents connect acquisition of valuable intelligence to the use of abusive techniques. I hope that the documents are declassified, so that people can judge for themselves what is fact, and what is fiction."

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/05/levin-calls-cheney-a-liar-on-torture.php

Another parlor trick from Cheney, expecting that the documents wouldn't see the light of day, so he could impose his own conclusions on what's not there to begin with?