Why are we concentrating on gay specific bullying instead of all bullying?

[AlexES16]

My religion requires that I denounce homosexuality as a sin against the community. Do you respect my religious right to denounce homosexuality?

I respect your idea, but in a country with good constitution you can't attack the individual becouse its a crime. But you are free to think what ever you want.

Goverment is to protect the smallest minority of all time, the individual.

 

[ShawnD]

So, in other words, as a white Christian male, I'm screwed?

Correct. There's no way to get straight white christian men to support anti-bullying causes. If this was actually possible, it would already be done and bullies would already be in death camps. Luckily white straight men are not the majority. If we get support from all gays, all blacks, all jews, all muslims, and all women, we can pass a law to put bullies on death row.


I just saw that movie kickass and I'm thinking the two bullies in that movie totally deserve to be on death row. This is why we keep fighting the good fight!

 

[Char. Limit]

Correct. There's no way to get straight white christian men to support anti-bullying causes. If this was actually possible, it would already be done and bullies would already be in death camps. Luckily white straight men are not the majority. If we get support from all gays, all blacks, all jews, all muslims, and all women, we can pass a law to put bullies on death row.


I just saw that movie kickass and I'm thinking the two bullies in that movie totally deserve to be on death row. This is why we keep fighting the good fight!

You're rather wrong with that second sentence. I'll just offer a counterexample. I'm a straight white male (does Spinozist count as Christian?) and I support anti-bullying causes. I just support them for what they are: anti-bullying causes.

 

[AlexES16]

Easier said than done when the bully is twice your size.

It's rare that someone of large physical stature is bullied by someone who is smaller (and has no backup).

Big people also attack becouse there is no retaliation. Even if you get beat up, just one hit will make his brain remeber that, if he wana mess with you at least he is gona get 1 hard and painful blow.

Also if the problem is serius, go boxing, MMA or what ever at least for a time.

Live free or die

 

[JaredJames]

Big people also attack becouse there is no retaliation. Even if you get beat up, just one hit will make his brain remeber that, if he wana mess with you at least he is gona get 1 hard and painful blow.

Also if the problem is serius, go boxing, MMA or what ever at least for a time.

Live free or die

Spoken as someone who has never been on the receiving end of things by the sound of it.

When the person is bigger than you and you aren't capable of fighting back, you don't.

I can't punch for sh*t. If it came to close quarters and I didn't have a weapon, I would be useless against someone like that.

 

[JaredJames]

Goverment is to protect the smallest minority of all time, the individual.

Not necessarily.

The police are there to protect you, however they don't have to respond to your call. You aren't entitled to protection from the government when it comes to crime.

Don’t look to Constitution for help. “In its landmark decision of DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services,” Stevens writes, “the U.S. Supreme Court declared that the Constitution does not impose a duty on the state and local governments to protect the citizens from criminal harm.”

http://www.disinfo.com/2010/03/the-police-arent-legally-obligated-to-protect-you/
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasler-protection.html

Google: "Do the police have to protect you?" for more links.

 

[BobG]

I see your point, but those are not my words. I wasn't suggesting fixing people, just fixing the problem. Education is one way of attempting to fix it.

You have a way of teaching empathy?

Perhaps - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1989122-1,00.html.

Empathy is best learned in infancy and early childhood. Very young children learn to read their parents emotions, and then others, when what the child does has an effect on the people around them. All of that cajoling with the "Pleeeeeeze" and the cutest face, all the while watching your face to see if they're making progress or have to try something else is teaching empathy.

If random good and bad happen to the child regardless of what he does, or stuff happens at 8:00 AM or 3:00 PM regardless of what he does, then there's little advantage to learning to read all of emotions of the humans around them. (In some situations, there's probably some advantage to learning to stay out of the way when the adults are drinking, stay away in the mornings, stay away when the adult's yelling into the phone, etc, but staying away also tends to lessen the chance of reading the full range of emotions.)

I guess some of these programs work, but it has to be pretty challenging to teach empathy to teenagers. It's not something normally learned in a classroom.

 

[AlexES16]

I guess most of you people are from a nation that i respect a lot, USA.
USA the powerfull country but a country that loves liberty, freedom and the pursue of happiness.

USA for me is maybe the gratest nation of all time.

Founded by revolutionaries like George Washington, a great brave men. A men who fighted back the britts. Imitate those people or even strive to be better.

 

[DaveC426913]

Words I never thought I'd hear in my lifetime...

 

[JaredJames]

Alex, I'm British. I would strongly disagree with you. I prefer the UK to the US.

 

[AlexES16]

Fighting back is not at all bad!

Defend yourself!

If you can't protect yourself how can your protect your childs, your man/woman.
Just grab a big book and hit him hard when he is giving you the back. Make him pay for trying to make you suffer.

Suicide is just a defeat withouth a fight,
Suicide is never something good, is maybe the worst things of all. And only bad people suicide becouse if you can't love yourself then you are really bad in your inside. And gays are not bad just for being gay.

 

[Char. Limit]

Fighting back is not at all bad!

Defend yourself!

If you can't protect yourself how can your protect your childs, your man/woman.
Just grab a big book and hit him hard when he is giving you the back. Make him pay for trying to make you suffer.

You sound like you're going psychotic with that last statement.

 

[AlexES16]

Alex, I'm British. I would strongly disagree with you. I prefer the UK to the US.

Ok, i like wiston churchill xD

 

[AlexES16]

You sound like you're going psychotic with that last statement.

There is some people that really are bad and start force against you just for the plesure to make you feel bad. I think they most pay.

Oh yeah I am hearing some rock right now, so yeah maybe i am in trance.

 

[Char. Limit]

There is some people that really are bad and start force against you just for the plesure to make you feel bad. I think they most pay.

Oh yeah I am hearing some rock right now, so yeah maybe i am in trance.

I listen to metal quite a lot. In fact, I am right now. Are you really that easily influenced by your music?

 

[JaredJames]

It's Winston Churchill.

And you make fighting back sound easy.

 

[AlexES16]

I listen to metal quite a lot. In fact, I am right now. Are you really that easily influenced by your music?

Well i guess i can't say jokes =).

 

[AlexES16]

It's Winston Churchill.

And you make fighting back sound easy.

Excuse me for my bad english

 

[ShawnD]

You have a way of teaching empathy?

Perhaps - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1989122-1,00.html.

Empathy is best learned in infancy and early childhood. Very young children learn to read their parents emotions, and then others, when what the child does has an effect on the people around them.

Children learn from pain. You cut your hand and you learn how not to use a knife. You stick dinner knives in the electrical outlet and learn the hard way what that hole in the wall is all about. After crashing your bike into a tree when going down a hill too fast, you learn that speed is dangerous.

Bullies have not learned that there is any consequence for pushing people around. Other kids will not teach this. The parents obviously don't care. Teachers can't really do anything other than separate the kids, and they probably don't even have legal authority to restrain a kid. Trying to work the emotional angle doesn't work because bullies are textbook psychopaths.

The ultimate solution: bring back the paddle. Instead of paddling the butt like one would do for talking out of turn or being a smart mouth, violent offenders would get paddled in the face. Animals learn quick when there is immediate painful consequence for things they do. Ever train a dog before? It's exactly the same.

Are you really that easily influenced by your music?

I always thought it was the other way around. When I'm in a good mood, I like music. Playing music when I feel bad doesn't make me feel any better. The music reflects my mood, but does not influence it.

 

[JaredJames]

Fighting back is not at all bad!

Defend yourself!

If you are able to. It's not as simple just doing it.

If you can't protect yourself how can your protect your childs, your man/woman.
Just grab a big book and hit him hard when he is giving you the back. Make him pay for trying to make you suffer.

With a weapon I can be quite effective. But in a fist fight, friggin' useless. The simple fact is I don't live in a country where I am required to defend myself. In 21 years I have never found myself in a situation I've been required to fight whether in defence or otherwise.
I'd also add that you don't seem to understand some of the detail so far as fighting a bully goes. They're rarely alone and it's generally not a simple case of being able to fight back.

Suicide is just a defeat withouth a fight,
Suicide is never something good, is maybe the worst things of all. And only bad people suicide becouse if you can't love yourself then you are really bad in your inside. And gays are not bad just for being gay.

I don't know what this is all about, but you clearly don't understand suicide. It's not always about the reasons you gave there, and it isn't always a bad thing.

 

[AlexES16]

If you are able to. It's not as simple just doing it.


With a weapon I can be quite effective. But in a fist fight, friggin' useless. The simple fact is I don't live in a country where I am required to defend myself. In 21 years I have never found myself in a situation I've been required to fight whether in defence or otherwise.
I'd also add that you don't seem to understand some of the detail so far as fighting a bully goes. They're rarely alone and it's generally not a simple case of being able to fight back.


I don't know what this is all about, but you clearly don't understand suicide. It's not always about the reasons you gave there, and it isn't always a bad thing.

Happy for you that you don't have to fight back. Suicide maybe is good if you have a cancer or something very painful and very certain that is terminal or in a sacrifice for a good cause.
But suicide becouse you can't love yourself? That is the biggest defeat in a mans live.

 

[DaveC426913]

This thread is drifting off-topic.

 

[FlexGunship]

Full recovery!

Bullying is any act of intimidation used in an asymmetrically aggressive interaction carried out because of actual or perceived discrepancies of existence for the purpose of causing physical or emotional duress.​

Let's work on that definition!

 

[AlexES16]

I am wondering why the nation is gathering under the flag of bullying in relation specifically to gays instead of attacking the issue of bullying in general?

I was bullied in middle school, and everyone just told me that was the way it was.

I hate that bullying of anyone goes on and wish that we could take a stand against all forms of bullying?

Is it still acceptable to make fun of someone as long as they are not in a ethnic or social minority?

Retaliation is the solution. And pacifism is the gratest evil. Also giving a hard talk to the abuser parentes works to, and when i mean hard talk is that your parents also need to be ready for a fight.

Is it still acceptable to make fun of someone as long as they are not in a ethnic or social minority?? Not morally, but you also have to defend yourself with your mouth, teeths and all the body. Freedom of speech can't be violated just becouse some people can't stand by themselfs.

 

[FlexGunship]

Retaliation is the solution. And pacifism is the gratest evil.

Well... surely pacifism isn't the greatest evil. I'm a pacifist 8 hours a night.

 

[AlexES16]

Well... surely pacifism isn't the greatest evil. I'm a pacifist 8 hours a night.

Good point

 

[FlexGunship]

Good point

Hmm... it actually wasn't that good of a point. A good point would sound like this: "retaliation often denigrates the victim to the level of the bully. Assuming that the victim responds in kind, the level of aggression has been equalized and there is no social recourse."

 

[AlexES16]

This guy talks about this problem and talks about the media and gay Bullying

 

[JaredJames]

Alex, you are implying that you want everyone to simply fight (physically) with each other. That is not how civilized society works and I don't know why you believe so.

It is one thing to defend yourself, but your posts are indicating that you want people to do more than that. This is wrong. If you go beyond defending yourself, you can be in just as much trouble.
It's called unjustifiable use of force. If you can't show there was a need to use that level of violence, you will go to prison (in the UK, not sure how the US works with regards to self defence without a firearm).

Advocating that we use violence to attack bullies and stop them won't end the problem. There are far more levels than simply "he bullied me, I hit him, he stopped bullying". Fighting back doesn't always stop it. Which is why you need a better punishment system in place. You need to show these people that they will be caught and punished to deter them from bullying in the first place. And also that people can tell someone about being bullied and it will be taken seriously and acted upon.

 

[AlexES16]

Hmm... it actually wasn't that good of a point. A good point would sound like this: "retaliation often denigrates the victim to the level of the bully. Assuming that the victim responds in kind, the level of aggression has been equalized and there is no social recourse."

Justice is good, and some times you have to make them pay. Fight one day to be free? I think it worths the effort.

 

[AlexES16]

Alex, you are implying that you want everyone to simply fight (physically) with each other. That is not how civilized society works and I don't know why you believe so.

It is one thing to defend yourself, but your posts are indicating that you want people to do more than that. This is wrong. If you go beyond defending yourself, you can be in just as much trouble.
It's called unjustifiable use of force. If you can't show there was a need to use that level of violence, you will go to prison (in the UK, not sure how the US works with regards to self defence without a firearm).

Advocating that we use violence to attack bullies and stop them won't end the problem. There are far more levels than simply "he bullied me, I hit him, he stopped bullying". Fighting back doesn't always stop it. Which is why you need a better punishment system in place. You need to show these people that they will be caught and punished to deter them from bullying in the first place.

Which is why you need a better punishment system in place? To make them live a lie?

You are right when you don't have to use unjustifiable use of force, but a lot of teens get their lifes destroyed and some even kill themselfs. Those that are more affected are the ones that have to fight back.

 

[Al68]

Bullying can go far deeper and isn't always a case of physical violence. Emotional and verbal bullying can be far more devastating and can be much more difficult to spot.

"Emotional and verbal bullying" has a far different solution, though: Ignore it. Unlike assault, we don't imprison people for calling someone names. And unlike assault, even the smallest child can be taught the not-so advanced skill of ignoring someone.

Even in the case of violent acts, though, there are both short term and long term "solutions" that must be considered. It seems like you are referring to the correct long term solution, while Alex is referring to the short term solution of fighting back. (I don't think he meant to attack the bully the next day.)

Pacifism by victims only leads to more, not less, violence. As a short term solution, it is analogous to a long term solution of never prosecuting assault.

 

[JaredJames]

"Ignore it"? You really don't have a clue about bullying and its effects.

Like I said, defend yourself. Fight back. But it appears Alex is proposing going further than simply defending yourself. Especially based on the videos he posted.

 

[DaveC426913]

"Emotional and verbal bullying" has a far different solution, though: Ignore it. Unlike assault, we don't imprison people for calling someone names. And unlike assault, even the smallest child can be taught the not-so advanced skill of ignoring someone.

No Al68, you do not simply ignore it.

At the risk of invoking a very flammable strawman, I point you to the insitutionalized racism of blacks up until the 60's. Verbal and emotional bullying is oppression.

 

[Al68]

"Ignore it"? You really don't have a clue about bullying and its effects.

What are you talking about? I was referring to "emotional and verbal" bullying, not physical bullying. Did you misunderstand my post?

Do you disagree that children should be taught how to ignore name-calling instead of (physically) fighting over it?