Why i don't believe in ghosts as potrayed in popular culture?

[Ivan Seeking]

One more thought. We experienced something like a dozen [maybe a bit more...a lot of time has passed now] events over a period of about two years. How was I supposed to demonstrate these effects to someone else without having them live in our apartment? Does this limitation make them any less real?

 

[DaveC426913]

One more thought. We experienced something like a dozen [maybe a bit more...a lot of time has passed now] events over a period of about two years. How was I supposed to demonstrate these effects to someone else without having them live in our apartment? Does this limitation make them any less real?

No. They are real. It's a particular explanation for their cause that can't be verified (by anyone, including - as I'm sure you'll agree - you).

 

[LightbulbSun]

Lets not forget that studies have shown that eyewitness testimony is pretty unreliable even when it comes to basic details.

 

[LightbulbSun]

One more thought. We experienced something like a dozen [maybe a bit more...a lot of time has passed now] events over a period of about two years.

Where do you get this figure from?

 

[DaveC426913]

Where do you get this figure from?

What an odd question. You do realize he is speaking about his own personal experiences? You want him to call himself as an authority?

 

[michinobu]

How many scientists run out to verify the evidence alleged by the Ghost Hunters? As soon as someone does something like this, they are relegated to the fringe. I would imagine that there are thousands of these ghost hunting groups claiming evidence, all over the world.

If you mean that we are supposed to capture Casper in a jar and take him back to the lab, tell me how.

If this was something like ball lighting, or earthquake lights, where the scientific community was willing to accept evidence in the form of videos and photos, we would be done. But unlike those phenomena, any real "ghost" phenomenon carries the implication of an extraordinary claim; requiring extraordinary evidence. I have yet to think of any evidence that could suffice, no matter what the explanation is for these claims and experiences. The best that we can do is to rule out the claims that can be explained.

Maybe because the realm of ghost "evidence" is filled with an ocean of bull-**** is the reason behind why there are so few scientists with any enthusiasm in trying to verify any kind of evidence related to ghosts.

Like, you could have a scientist leave a camera recording in a supposed empty room in a haunted house, and eventually it pick up these apparitions. With the results given by the camera, the scientist could tell everyone that there wasn't anyone in the room at the time - at least no one physical - and use this as "evidence" that ghosts exist. But, this really doesn't tell anyone anything, because we have no way of proving that there weren't people in the room. Nor, does it explain how could the camera pick them up if they're not physical objects existing in space considering how cameras only pick up physical objects existing in space in which light bounces off of them and into the camera lens.

For other explanations, such as audio or temperature changes or magnetic fields or what-not, they too don't indicate anything about ghosts. Maybe scientists are too thick-headed to accept that maybe we have a spirit because they live in their own narrow world, and thus won't give enough attention to verifying the evidence out there. But, the fact of the matter is that there are way too many lies and falsified evidence out there that if a serious scientist were to try to debunk every eye-witness account, every video recording, etc. he'd eventually die from exhaustion but go insane and see ghosts himself right before he does.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

No doubt, the never-ending fraud and scams make it difficult. But beyond that, I ask again, even if some of the most exotic claims are genuine, what evidence would satisfy science; specifically?

I have asked this question many times but still have no answer.

 

[arildno]

No doubt, the never-ending fraud and scams make it difficult. But beyond that, I ask again, even if some of the most exotic claims are genuine, what evidence would satisfy science; specifically?

I have asked this question many times but still have no answer.

As long as consciousness&living deceasedness (ghostliness?) do not have any precise indicators, no claimed "evidence" for those conditions can be accepted.

Thus, what CAN be done is just to disprove every "natural" explanation put forth, and be ready to disprove others, until the scientific community caves in.

 

[michinobu]

As long as consciousness&living deceasedness (ghostliness?) do not have any precise indicators, no claimed "evidence" for those conditions can be accepted.

Thus, what CAN be done is just to disprove every "natural" explanation put forth, and be ready to disprove others, until the scientific community caves in.

But, that's illogical. In order to prove anything, you have to prove for it - not against it. This is why the prosecuting attorney has the burden of proof in trying to convict the defendant, because we assume a natural state about anything until we have evidence to prove otherwise. We assume someone is innocent until proven guilty because by nature we're all innocent of any particular crime until we change states and commit the crime, likewise an object is assumed non-existent until it's proven to exist because the object's initial state was that it didn't exist.

If we had to disprove something first in order to reject it, then we'd all be in jail, and we'd assume that unicorns and leprechauns were real because we wouldn't be able to disprove them.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I had a horrible hallucination a few weeks ago. I had just woken from a short mid day nap. I was completely conscious. No lucid dreaming or dream inside a dream, I was awake. I rolled over and saw there was a patch of grey spots on my carpet maybe 3-4ft from the bed. As I focused and lean over a bit more I could see they were maggots. As if someone dumped a bowl of maggots on my carpet and they were going in and out. I was super confused. I strained my eyes and really tried to focus as if in disbelief. I saw them clearly. After a minute or two they didn't so much fade away as some hallucinations do but rather as I continued to watch, just less and less maggots came back up from the carpet until there were just a few and then none. At that point I jumped out of bed and saw up close nose to the carpet there were no maggots. Maybe that is similar to some ghost experiences?

 

[Evo]

I had a horrible hallucination a few weeks ago. I had just woken from a short mid day nap. I was completely conscious. No lucid dreaming or dream inside a dream, I was awake. I rolled over and saw there was a patch of grey spots on my carpet maybe 3-4ft from the bed. As I focused and lean over a bit more I could see they were maggots. As if someone dumped a bowl of maggots on my carpet and they were going in and out. I was super confused. I strained my eyes and really tried to focus as if in disbelief. I saw them clearly. After a minute or two they didn't so much fade away as some hallucinations do but rather as I continued to watch, just less and less maggots came back up from the carpet until there were just a few and then none. At that point I jumped out of bed and saw up close nose to the carpet there were no maggots. Maybe that is similar to some ghost experiences?

Wow, I'll take my kitten over your maggots any day.

 

[LightbulbSun]

No doubt, the never-ending fraud and scams make it difficult. But beyond that, I ask again, even if some of the most exotic claims are genuine, what evidence would satisfy science; specifically?

I have asked this question many times but still have no answer.

It has to be distinct evidence. It can't be some anomaly that already has a natural explanation to it.

 

[DaveC426913]

No doubt, the never-ending fraud and scams make it difficult. But beyond that, I ask again, even if some of the most exotic claims are genuine, what evidence would satisfy science; specifically?

I have asked this question many times but still have no answer.

But ... ...this is as with all scientific lines of thought - evolution, BB theory, germ theory, atomic theory etc.. There's no specific tipping point, so much as a general turning of the tides. At some point, it's just considered generally accepted (or generally refuted).

 

[Hanfonius]

I couldn't agree more with this viewpoint.

While on the one hand, there are people who make claims, and defy science to offer rational explanations to prove them wrong, it is also equally wrong for science to dismiss such claims with arrogancy. Unless the claims are obviously insincere, they should warrant basic investigation at least by the scientific community.

There are many genuine and honest people who believe they have seen something 'ghostly'. Normally, they are not equipped with the knowledge to explain such events themselves, and turn to others for belief.

Unfortunately, there are many self-acclaimed experts who are capitalising on such reports, and the man on the Hackney Omnibus wants to believe them. It is human nature to want to believe in flying saucers, ghosts, yeti's, government conspiracies and so on.

I would suggest it is these self-acclaimed experts who are more damaging to the scientific understanding than the witnesses.

 

[Pythagorean]

my semi-ghost story.

I kind of debunked this myself when I went to the location the next day, but the story first:

My sister and I were walking down the street late one night in St. Cloud, Florida near a lake. We'd always go play with the toads at night.

As we walked down the street, we passed an intersecting street, all residential, and about a block down it we could see a strange humanoid shape up against a fence. It didn't have any real detail, it was all white light. But then it seemed to change form to something smaller, and jump on top of the fence, still glowing white, then it jumped down, disappearing on the other side of the fence.

When I went there the next day, I noticed it was an abandoned house and there were large picture windows in the yard behind the fence (a section of the fence had fallen over). There was also a couple cats around, one of them completely white. I figured I must have seen a combination of light tricks from the street lights and the large windows (making the humanoid shape) and a cat on the fence.

 

[ChadRichens]

How I explain my Experience.

I'm sitting in a room in broad daylight at two in the afternoon. There is one door to my right in clear visibility, and I'm sitting in a rocking chair on my laptop writing an article about String/M Theory. I "Feel a Presence" in the room with me... Look over to my left and as my head is turning I feel it move by me and out the door.

When it was in the room, I could immediately felt it there. When it was moving in the room, I could tell where it was through this feeling, And when it left the room, I could tell it was gone, not only from the room, but from anywhere near me, as if I could tell what ever I was experiencing was over.

edit by Ivan: Personal theory deleted.

 

[Ghost803]

I don't think any of the Ghost experiences are anything more than the illusions of the subconscious. I lived in India till I was ten and grew up with Ghost stories and streets that would be completely dark after seven in the evening. Open windows with no screens, and pitch black outside, only three bars separated the outside from the inside. In general, the place was scary as hell to grow up as a kid. So even now when I return to India, I am scared of the dark a little bit and have seen what I think are hallucinations of figures and heard weird noises.

But when I am in America, with a freaking street lamp everywhere and lacking tropical forests in which attractive women can lure you to certain death, I have no fear. None what so ever, I can be in pitch freaking dark and I don't get concerned. And I have never had any incidents here. I think another reason that America is lacking in really scary and widely believed stories is that it doesn't have much of a History.

Most of the cities are only a few centuries old and most of the suburbs are maybe a few decades. So you are lacking in really grisly, screwed up deaths in cities and areas populated by people. That is why most of the ghost stories in America seem to be surrounding battle fields and Native American burials.

 

[jreelawg]

I had an interesting dream the other day involving ghosts. I was in the bathroom, and suddenly and rush of coldness attacked, like cold air without the wind. I ran, and escaped, but the coldness followed me. It got me again, and I suddenly awoke and my chest was freezing cold. Of coarse, my blanket wasn't covering my chest and it was cold in the room. That is obviously just my imagination in dream world.


But, at one point in time I actually believed in some sort of shadow like thing that visited me in my sleep. I used to have sleep paralysis, and I would be awake yet unable to move or open my eyes, as I fought to break the paralysis, I could sense something in the room that seamed to be like a dark shadow. I could feel where it was in the room, and sometimes it would speak. Sometimes it would hover over me. I don't honestly believe it was a ghost or anything, but it was pretty scary, at times I was certain something was there.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As long as consciousness&living deceasedness (ghostliness?) do not have any precise indicators, no claimed "evidence" for those conditions can be accepted.

Agreed. However, you are assuming an explanation where we only have claims of phenomena. Why should we assume that ghosts have anything to do with dead people?

Thus, what CAN be done is just to disprove every "natural" explanation put forth, and be ready to disprove others, until the scientific community caves in.

Disprove every natural explanation for what; evidence that science won't accept [not that I'm saying it should be accepted]?

 

[HallsofIvy]

I had a horrible hallucination a few weeks ago. I had just woken from a short mid day nap. I was completely conscious. No lucid dreaming or dream inside a dream, I was awake. I rolled over and saw there was a patch of grey spots on my carpet maybe 3-4ft from the bed. As I focused and lean over a bit more I could see they were maggots. As if someone dumped a bowl of maggots on my carpet and they were going in and out. I was super confused. I strained my eyes and really tried to focus as if in disbelief. I saw them clearly. After a minute or two they didn't so much fade away as some hallucinations do but rather as I continued to watch, just less and less maggots came back up from the carpet until there were just a few and then none. At that point I jumped out of bed and saw up close nose to the carpet there were no maggots. Maybe that is similar to some ghost experiences?

I wouldn't call this an hallucination. If you were only half waked up I suspect what you saw were blood cells moving through your retina as if they were projected out in front of you- you can also see them when your eyes are really tired although normally they don't look like they are projected in front of you- that may be an artifact of not having been completely awake- your brain interpreted what you saw as being on the nearest surface to you. They appear as a swarm of greyish blobs- often elongated as they pass through capillary veins.

 

[arildno]

But, that's illogical. In order to prove anything, you have to prove for it - not against it. This is why the prosecuting attorney has the burden of proof in trying to convict the defendant, because we assume a natural state about anything until we have evidence to prove otherwise. We assume someone is innocent until proven guilty because by nature we're all innocent of any particular crime until we change states and commit the crime, likewise an object is assumed non-existent until it's proven to exist because the object's initial state was that it didn't exist.

If we had to disprove something first in order to reject it, then we'd all be in jail, and we'd assume that unicorns and leprechauns were real because we wouldn't be able to disprove them.

Not at all.
(Good) theories are first and foremost falsifiable (in contrast to bad ones, which lack falsifiability).
We will, incidentally, learn a lot about so-called para-normal phenomena if we are able to refute the specific, natural explanations for them.

As for your analogy with a courtroom, I don't get it.

 

[nottheone]

I don't know how anyone can say they don't believe in ghosts, the Ghost Hunters find something in every episode... uh, did you hear that?

Last year I was at a friends house and we saw a light in the woods where there were no houses. It looked very strange, strange enough that we went in the woods to see what it was. We walked in for about 15 minutes without getting any closer. Stranger and stranger. Then we finally saw what it was, it was the moon. It didn't look anything like the moon at first, not until it rose a ways above the horizon.

 

[Oscar Wilde]

If you look hard enough for something chances are you'll find it.

That comment aside, I have had two odd experiences. I sleepwalk about 3 times a year or so, it's nothing really special or anything. One night I woke up on the downstairs couch (after already having tucked myself into bed earlier) with a blanket over me. Nothing strange so far, thus far my experience is easily explainable. All I could hear was my fat cat snoring on the couch, but then I heard footsteps coming up from the basement. Classic cliched horror right? I'm almost positive I imagined the footsteps but honestly at the time I was terrified by what was at hand. Anyways, there's an interesting story, more or less.

My mother in particular has had odd experiences with cats. We used to have a few cats, 2 were young and one was very, very old (24). We decided to put him to sleep because his life seemed to have deteriorated. A few days later our two other cats were acting peculiar, circling around a spot on the living room, staring at it with awe. Their tails were all puffed out in defense, and their posture was indicative of the same. I've always wondered about that day, we've had another similar experience but that isn't worth detailing; it is much the same.

That's all for my washed-up ghost stories.

 

[Karl G.]

Query: could a ghost collapse a wavefunction? :) Good Argument!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Query: could a ghost collapse a wavefunction? :) Good Argument!

Not for this forum.

 

[Ghost803]

I recently had a night terror. Or atleast that's what I think it was.

I woke up around 5:30 ish in the morning, an unusual time for me. And I couldn't really get myself out of bed. I usually sleep with my fan on. When I kinda woke up though, I began to freak cause I could hear the light sound of the fan getting really loud and then really low with intervals of just a second.

It was almost like the story by Edgar Allen Poe "The Telltale Heart" when the dude could hear the sound of a heartbeat and it was really loud. Then I saw someone out of the corner of my eye. Thinking it was my roomate, I opened one of my eyes and peeked. But there was no one there.

I began to pray to Buddha, lulz. It was wierd. First time when I could really feel my heart beat like hell and was actually terrified for the first time in my life.

 

[DaveC426913]

Night terrors are really more about waking up from the terror, rather than the terror occurring upon awakening. And victims tend to have no idea or memory of what caused them.

 

[Count Iblis]

Ghosts exist in the virtual worlds simulated by some brains.

 

[NWH]

I can honestly say, I've had visual experiences which I have no solid explination for. These experiences were also confirmed by the people around me at the time. The conditions were dark, misty and moon lit, out in the wilderness that is Kielder Reservoir. Mist and fog can be known to make shapes, but I've usually found it to pretty evenly distributed from what I've ever noticed. Seeing bodilly figures litterally all around you, some even having what resemble limbs isn't a happy sight, not when your visuals' position are confirmed by someone elses torch light, nor when you're standing litterally thirty feet from a grave yard. I can confidently say what I saw was a form of "ghost," whether it was an interdimentional being or an effect of nature is yet to be answered.

 

[Quincy]

Ghosts = Bulls*it. End of Discussion :)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ghosts = Bulls*it. End of Discussion :)

On what do you base your opinion?

 

[DaveC426913]

On what do you base your opinion?

As stated, that was not an opinion; that was a claim of fact. Quincy apparently has access to data that the rest of us do not.

 

[Pinu7]

I don't "believe" that ghosts a real or fake.

However, I find it interesting that if this phenomena is experienced by so much, that there would be scientific investigations instead of crazies with "echno-plasma-thermo-ghosto meters."

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't "believe" that ghosts a real or fake.

What if money were at stake? Yours. And lots of it. Which way would you bet?

However, I find it interesting that if this phenomena is experienced by so much, that there would be scientific investigations instead of crazies with "echno-plasma-thermo-ghosto meters."

Well, if we do not have an explanation then we cannot rule out their claims. They're only crazy if they're wrong.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't "believe" that ghosts a real or fake.

However, I find it interesting that if this phenomena is experienced by so much, that there would be scientific investigations instead of crazies with "echno-plasma-thermo-ghosto meters."

What kind of scientific investigation would you suggest? What specific tests could be done?

Also, are you claiming that no credible scientists look at this stuff?