Why is Asperger's considered a form of autism?

[zoobyshoe]

On Monday evening I'm supposed to meet an autistic savant. Her savant skills are art, and teaching herself foreign languages. She's also synesthetic, music -> colors. Should be interesting.

 

[rhody]

On Monday evening I'm supposed to meet an autistic savant. Her savant skills are art, and teaching herself foreign languages. She's also synesthetic, music -> colors. Should be interesting.

Wow, considering your communication skills and firm background in art and neurology I am sure there should be some interesting stories to tell. Possibly get her to join and have a peek at the synesthesia thread perhaps ?

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

Wow, considering your communication skills and firm background in art and neurology I am sure there should be some interesting stories to tell. Possibly get her to join and have a peek at the synesthesia thread perhaps ?

We'll see what happens. I met her former caretaker months ago and run into her a couple times a week. She stays in touch with most of her former clients and calls her (the savant) up now and then to get together. Apparently they've been to the cafe where I hang out a few times when I didn't happen to be there. When I saw the caretaker a couple days ago she said she planned to bring her down there this evening.

My plan for tonight is just to get a sense of how articulate she is (what kinds of questions she can handle) and try to pin down a list of all her savant skills and synesthesias.

 

[rhody]

We'll see what happens. I met her former caretaker months ago and run into her a couple times a week. She stays in touch with most of her former clients and calls her (the savant) up now and then to get together. Apparently they've been to the cafe where I hang out a few times when I didn't happen to be there. When I saw the caretaker a couple days ago she said she planned to bring her down there this evening.

My plan for tonight is just to get a sense of how articulate she is (what kinds of questions she can handle) and try to pin down a list of all her savant skills and synesthesias.

Zooby,

You are a master at that so I am sure there will be some interesting exchanges. I have a friend at work whose stepson may have it (synesthesia) as well. He is forwarding the link to his step Dad. Hopefully it will prove useful and interesting to him and his stepson. Only time will tell. Later.

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

This is a kid's book that I think actually sums up a lot of the symptons and experience pretty well.

The book is pretty thorough, covers about everything.

Aspergers=sensory bombardment. Turn the ****ing noise down. I don't want to hear any noises when I try to read. Just everything is magnified. Even touch. Clothing is an irritant. Shirts have to be broken in and worn many times to be tolerable. There is less distinction between signal and noise.

Are you speaking from experience or using the first person on behalf of your friend? As a kid I was hypersensitive to certain things, and I've often heard people who clearly don't have Asperger's mention similar things. In my case I think it was linked to the fact I had (or have) Migraine. Certain stimuli made me nauseated. I spent a lot of time in school feeling a sickening malaise, then I'd come home and have a terrific unilateral headache for a couple hours. A lot of things like clothing, certain foods, the sight of certain things, were intensely unpleasant.

 

[rhody]

Yes, mechanisms may be similar, but then what is it you are suggesting? That the essential cause of neurodevelopmental differences like autism, etc, is due to faulty "group behaviour genes"? Or is it something about the cross-species story of bacteria you are getting at?

Remember that bacteria are promiscuous buggers and pass all sorts of genes across species. But this is not the case for higher animals (though viral segments and other stuff can get worked into our genomes - around 3% by some estimates).

To step back, the presumption is that neurodevelopmental disorders occur because neurodevelopment gets derailed. An array of inter-cell signalling is involved in getting a brain to construct itself correctly. This is an immensely complex story. And so it is easy to imagine dozens of ways the process could be derailed.

The bacteria connection you are making seems nothing special because bacteria, like all cells, also make heavy use of receptors and signalling systems. So what is it about them that suggests a specific derailing mechanism?

aperion,

I went digging some more and found this PF thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=733171#post733171" posted by: hypnagogue

Neurons normally have a resting potential, such that the interior of the neuron is negatively charged with respect to the exterior. A neuron's potential can be be made either more or less negative by inputs it receives from other neurons at its dendrites. If the inputs a neuron receives raise its potential above a certain threshold, then the action potential (process of neural firing) is automatically triggered. (Actually, neurons normally fire spontaneously at some rate; inputs from other neurons can make a given neuron fire more or less rapidly, though.) Here are some good links that go into further detail:

His first link: http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/E/ExcitableCells.html" includes the passage, last paragraph at bottom reproduced here:

This way for the neuron to evaluate a mix of positive and negative signals occurs rapidly. It turns out, however, that neurons also have a long-term way to integrate a mix of positive and negative signals converging on them. This long-term response involves changes in gene activity leading to changes in the number and activity of the cell's many synapses.

This quote is from the second link: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=neuron"

The neuron, like all cells, is encapsulated and defined by a semi-permeable membrane. Semi-permeable just means that some things can cross it, and others cannot, and some can cross it only if the cell allows them to. Ions fall into this latter group. They can only cross the membrane though channels, protein structures in the membrane which can be variably selective. At rest, when the cell is just sitting, and not transmitting signals, there are several types of channels active. There are leak channels, which allow the free flow of specific ions. Only one ion can pass through a channel at a time, so these leaks are not very strong, and they are different for different ions (depending on the number of leak channels for that particular ion). The other vitally important type of channel active at rest is the ion pump. These pumps push ions against their electrochemical gradient, and with the leak channels help to maintain steady concentrations of ions inside the neuron.

I guess where I am trying to draw a similar analogy is with ions (in neurons) with enzymes (in bacteria) because much of the behavior (at least to me) seems similar.
The main difference is with bacteria it is a one shot deal, a threshold is reached, and all the bacteria release their contents and the electrochemical bio luminescence is achieved. Whereas in the case of the neurons, the process repeats and the ions are transmitted propagated to the next neuron.

finally: bottom of the page:

There are other types of voltage sensitive ion channels which have different dynamics and can affect things like the rate and pattern with which neurons fire.

I equate different types of ion channels with different dynamics to different types of bacteria, each with its own unique enzyme.

The question is then, since bacteria have been shown to communicate to other bacteria (not the same type) with enzymes common to all species, is the same true for neurons ? More important are there different types of neurons (layman's question I am not a biologist) where intra-species (if there are different types of neurons) communication is possible.

Thanks for your patience... I am trying to learn, slowly but surely getting it, little by little.

Rhody...

P.S. One more thing, have a look at this video and quote from the article below by Dr Casanova:

I am including a https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2640607&highlight=Casanova#post2640607" to the Einstein Autism thread. The point Dr Casanova is making is that there are brain structure anomalies: quote from the post linked above:

The brain strands or minicolumns of autism patients have more cells, but they are narrower and more densely packed -- which can limit the brain's ability to send messages.

Dr. Casanova says that's because "there's not enough juice to actually power very long connections in the brain."

Examining tissues from a normal brain and the brain of an autistic person, Dr. Casanova explains the differences. "The more bluish staining actually means more cells present," he says.

More cells and smaller cells, making up tiny brain strands, or minicolumns. These minicolums take in information, process it and respond to it.

Do gene abnormalities express themselves sometime in the critical time period 3 - 5 years when most toddlers are diagnosed as being autistic ?

 

[apeiron]

The question is then, since bacteria have been shown to communicate to other bacteria (not the same type) with enzymes common to all species, is the same true for neurons ? More important are there different types of neurons (layman's question I am not a biologist) where intra-species (if there are different types of neurons) communication is possible.

I think you are reasoning from a variety of faulty assumptions here.

Neurons propagate signals down their axons by a wave of ionic activity - ions crossing the membrane - but then signal across a synapse (mostly) by releasing neurotransmitter messengers. (What you are calling enzymes).

Ion pores and ligand-gated channels are just standard biological equipment common to any cell. Neurons are cells that have been designed to make special use of their properties. So what you need to compare is not the components that would be common to many species of life, but the functional design of the cells involved.

Do gene abnormalities express themselves sometime in the critical time period 3 - 5 years when most toddlers are diagnosed as being autistic ?

There are many "critical periods" in brain development. You may be thinking of language development in particular. True autism is considered to show from birth. If you know what to look for. That is another reason for thinking it a low-level sensory integration issue (not a ToM one).

 

[zoobyshoe]

You are a master at that so I am sure there will be some interesting exchanges. I have a friend at work whose stepson may have it (synesthesia) as well. He is forwarding the link to his step Dad. Hopefully it will prove useful and interesting to him and his stepson. Only time will tell. Later.

Hmmmm...well, the caretaker showed up with the autistic woman and another mutual friend at the cafe. They were 2.5 hours late. They didn't mention why, but I think there was a reason for it.

The woman was much older than I anticipated, in her early 60's I'd say. I'd gage she had the I.Q. of a 6 or 7 year old. She was exceptionally friendly and open to me from the get go. No hint of shyness around a stranger. I got everyone situated at my table and asked who wanted to draw. The caretaker had claimed the autistic woman had savant skills as an artist and I wanted to see that. I gave her paper and pencils. The resulting drawing was...ah...not the work of a savant. It was a rendering of the military base where she'd spent some of her childhood, and was about the level of a ten year old with no special skills. I had previously specifically asked the caretaker if the autistic woman's art was any good and she'd assured me "Oh, yeah! It's really good!"

Her caretaker volunteered a list of the woman's synesthetic responses to notes of the scale to me, saying "Here's a list of the colors she told me she sees." The list was hinkey. Only the major notes from C to B, no sharps or flats. The colors were all basic colors: red, yellow, blue, green, purple, orange, etc, not the delicate shades you usually see in these lists. I asked her what color she saw when she heard F#. She said "Purple", which was the same color that was on her list for F.

I asked the woman, "Say, do you have perfect pitch?" and she said "Yeah." I pulled out a little electronic keyboard I'd brought especially to test her and played a note. "What note is that?" I asked. She hesitated. I played it again several times. She said "I don't know." Scratch perfect pitch. I played the note again, "What color does it make you see?" She says "Red." Then she added "Green", then she added "Purple". And went through a whole bunch more colors. I tried a different note. She said, "I don't know." Scratch synesthesia.

The caretaker was getting red in the face. She asked, irritatedly "Do you always carry that thing with you?, meaning the keyboard. I said no, I'd brought it specifically for the occasion.

So, I think what happened was that the caretaker, in previous conversations, had grossly inflated her descriptions of the autistic woman's abilities, just cause she knew I liked neurological prodigies. I have the feeling they were late because they were trying to figure a way of compiling the list of synesthetic correlates. I imagine they were asking the autistic woman questions like "What color do you suppose goes with C? Do you think it might be Red?" To which the woman would agree, thinking they were playing some sort of game. Once they had the list I imagine they got her to memorize it, thinking I would only ask her "What color does D make you see?" to which she would reply with the preset answer.

It's hard to say for sure. The autistic woman, herself, was unintentionally misleading, like when I asked her if she had perfect pitch. I have no idea why she said "Yeah", so quickly and confidently, she didn't seem to know what perfect pitch was when it came down to it. I guess it was like Rainman when the Doc asked him how much a candy bar cost: "About a hundred dollars." And then how much a car cost: "About a hundred dollars." Ask them the wrong kind of question and they'll confabulate an answer. Or, in their mind, they think they understood what you asked. Hard to say.

The autistic woman had a fun time drawing, anyway. Once she got hold of the pencil sharpener she got fixated on it, and sharpened about 20 pencils nearly to oblivion. I had to remind her to get back to her drawing to save my Prismacolors.

It makes me think that all reports of autistic synesthetes may have to be doubly scrutinized, at least twice, and a few more times for good measure. Unlike 'normies' an autistic person could remember a list of musical note -> color corespondents forever and never make a mistake when tested years later, just because their memories are so good. Directly asking them if they feel shapes in response to taste, for example, might get a "yes" answer, even if they really have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[rhody]

I think what happened was that the caretaker, in previous conversations, had grossly inflated her descriptions of the autistic woman's abilities, just cause she knew I liked neurological prodigies.

Hey, every experience is novel now isn't it ? It sounds like the caretaker "punked" you, she wanted to impress you and it back fired. It would have been cool if she had the abilities that she claimed to have however.

It makes me think that all reports of autistic synesthetes may have to be doubly scrutinized, at least twice, and a few more times for good measure.

Why ? Have you met a real autistic synesthete, or read of people claiming to have both that make you suspicious that they really don't exhibit the behavior/sensing of both ?

BTW. I picked up "Wed is indigo blue" the other day. Are their sections I should pay special attention to or that you agree with or have issues with, or for that matter skip altogether because it is simply a rehash of "The Man Who Tasted Shapes" ?

Rhody...

P.S. knowing you are the sensitive type, did you notice/sense anything before the earthquake hit yesterday ? I was in SD in the early 80's and we had one in the high 5 low 6 range. It sounded like a freight train and the whole building swayed, and small hairline cracks appeared in some walls, small cracks in the freeway in the hills near LaJolla. If you were outdoors, I have been told that animals can get really quiet just before, or suddenly act crazy in groups (quorum sensing, hehe).

 

[rhody]

I've gotten used to the sensory stuff, and tried very hard to get over it. Sound was mine.
And it was never an issue- just loud. And curious.

And yes, social norms are hard to fit into.

GreatEscapist,

If you don't mind, I have a question for you, I am going to build a hypothetical situation, if you ever experienced it the way I describe it, great, if not if you had a situation close to it, describe it and how you felt.

You are with a group of friends in the evening, quietly sitting around a camp fire, the fire has burned down a bit and no one has gotten up to put more wood on. You are with people you know really well and trust, and the conversation is light and everyone is in a good mood. In this situation when you friends look at you and share their stories and feelings, how does it make you feel ?

Remember, you can see them but the color in their outline had faded, the only light is from the glowing campfire ? Their physical presence is shaded if you know what I mean.

Rhody...

 

[nismaratwork]

I think you are reasoning from a variety of faulty assumptions here.

Neurons propagate signals down their axons by a wave of ionic activity - ions crossing the membrane - but then signal across a synapse (mostly) by releasing neurotransmitter messengers. (What you are calling enzymes).

Ion pores and ligand-gated channels are just standard biological equipment common to any cell. Neurons are cells that have been designed to make special use of their properties. So what you need to compare is not the components that would be common to many species of life, but the functional design of the cells involved.



There are many "critical periods" in brain development. You may be thinking of language development in particular. True autism is considered to show from birth. If you know what to look for. That is another reason for thinking it a low-level sensory integration issue (not a ToM one).

I don't think that point can be stressed enough. Autism really does seem to be present from birth, unlike disorders or syndromes which result in eventual developmental retreat.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Hey, every experience is novel now isn't it ? It sounds like the caretaker "punked" you, she wanted to impress you and it back fired. It would have been cool if she had the abilities that she claimed to have however.

Indeed.

Why ? Have you met a real autistic synesthete, or read of people claiming to have both that make you suspicious that they really don't exhibit the behavior/sensing of both ?

It should be clear from my post why. Autistic people will give affirmative answers to questions when they really don't understand what you're asking, many can memorize long lists of things and remember them accurately for years, and their descriptions of their experiences can be oblique and inpenetrable, causing people to interpret what they say incorrectly.

BTW. I picked up "Wed is indigo blue" the other day. Are their sections I should pay special attention to or that you agree with or have issues with, or for that matter skip altogether because it is simply a rehash of "The Man Who Tasted Shapes" ?

It is more like a rewrite and update of Synesthesia: A Union of the Senses. Just read the whole book, but don't count on any of it to be accepted forever. Like I said this whole field of research is new and everything's subject to change, especially statistics.

P.S. knowing you are the sensitive type, did you notice/sense anything before the earthquake hit yesterday ?

I am the sensitive type? I don't know what that means. Anyway, I wasn't even aware of this quake till I saw mention of it in the paper. I'll tell you that before the biggish Easter quake we had, I had no inkling it was coming, nor did I notice animals acting funny.

 

[zoobyshoe]

As an Aspie I have run into a lot of individuals whom don't understand that Asperger's is very different from one another in terms of how it is expressed, the individual's sex, if the individual has other disorders that are common with those afflicted with Asperger's, like ADHD/ADD, Depression... but the only noticable symptoms/characteristics that label's someone as having Asperger's, from what I gather through research and interviews with professionals, is the lack of eye contact, social withdrawl and the obsession of a specialized interest.

I believe for myself the best treatment I have had (with the endless support of my family) was the innovative (at the time in the early 90's) was obtaining daily ridorous behavioural therapy that was given by fellow supportive teachers and family members which was overseen by a professional. After 10 years I was able to maintain eye contact and maintain at least one friendship and later on eventually go on dates (still struggle at times, but the key is to have a partnership with someone who understands and has the patience of a saint, VERY HARD TO FIND, mind you.) One of my fond memories, as an aspie, when i was young was my favourite interest, even as to this day, Ancient Egypt, I would go for hours researching this subject making sure I soaked in every bit of information.

Thanks for posting. It's very interesting to hear your history of effort to get the hang of social interactions.

I think people placed Asperger's in the autistic spectrum because of the key characteristic of social withdrawl, social awkwardness and whatnot.

The actual reason may be purely bureaucratic, as someone hinted in another thread. Placing it with autism gives it a more severe connotation which probably makes it easier to get health care funding. It's probably easier to convince a judge that someone with 'mild autism' might warrant Social Security than it is to convince them that someone with 'Asperger's' does. Saying that someone doesn't make eye contact, is socially awkward, and has obsessive interests doesn't sound severe enough that they couldn't hold a job. But if you say "autism", it makes more sense that they aren't going to be able to function productively in a workplace.

 

[nismaratwork]

Thanks for posting. It's very interesting to hear your history of effort to get the hang of social interactions.



The actual reason may be purely bureaucratic, as someone hinted in another thread. Placing it with autism gives it a more severe connotation which probably makes it easier to get health care funding. It's probably easier to convince a judge that someone with 'mild autism' might warrant Social Security than it is to convince them that someone with 'Asperger's' does. Saying that someone doesn't make eye contact, is socially awkward, and has obsessive interests doesn't sound severe enough that they couldn't hold a job. But if you say "autism", it makes more sense that they aren't going to be able to function productively in a workplace.

I'll say it again, the WHO and DSM classifications are for insurance purposes; to look at them in another way is to miss the point. There is a matter of simplifying the spectrum when they do seem to be similar, or at least hard to differentiate in terms of the cause and biology. Until there is a genetic or functional test that explains more than we see now, ASD is going to encompass "things" that do not necessarily share a common cause.

ASD is a lot like saying, "I broke a bone". That is informative and classifiable, but of no help to the doctor or patient who needs to distinguish between "spiral fracture of tibia", "green-stick fracture of 3rd rib" or "shattered pelvis". Yet they are all broken bones. In no way does the DSM represent the leading edge of science, or the art of psychology.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I'll say it again, the WHO and DSM classifications are for insurance purposes; to look at them in another way is to miss the point. There is a matter of simplifying the spectrum when they do seem to be similar, or at least hard to differentiate in terms of the cause and biology. Until there is a genetic or functional test that explains more than we see now, ASD is going to encompass "things" that do not necessarily share a common cause.

ASD is a lot like saying, "I broke a bone". That is informative and classifiable, but of no help to the doctor or patient who needs to distinguish between "spiral fracture of tibia", "green-stick fracture of 3rd rib" or "shattered pelvis". Yet they are all broken bones. In no way does the DSM represent the leading edge of science, or the art of psychology.

Yes, I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

 

[nismaratwork]

Yes, I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

Thank you sir, I've been reading your contributions in the Synesthesia thread, and let me say that this compliment from you has some meaning to me.

 

[rhody]

Wow, zooby, aperion, SW VandeCarr, nismaratwork, you need to watch this:

http://www.ted.com/talks/aditi_shan..._campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email"

http://www.ted.com/speakers/aditi_shankardass.html" to get to the heart of the video, fast forward to 3:05.

To sum it up:

1. Used on children with observed developmental disorders (particularly as it applies to autism)
2. Using Real Time rEEG, and two software programs:
3. Brain Electrical Activity Mapping (triangulates source of abnormality in the brain), and Statistical Probability Mapping
4. rEEG scans observed that in 50% of children diagnosed with autism (also showed signs of spacing out), they were instead suffering from hidden brain seizures, wow.
5. Once properly diagnosed they could be put on appropriate anti-seizure meds.

Rhody...

P.S. Zooby,

A couple years later I discovered by complete accident that deja vus are simple partial seizures.

Funny how you had to learn about your simple partial seizures through indirect means of Dr Cytowic, but that's the serendipitous way of things I guess. Both you are nismaratwork are real smarty pants, hehe. Now, where was I. dribbles off...

 

[nismaratwork]

Wow, zooby, aperion, SW VandeCarr, nismaratwork, you need to watch this:

http://www.ted.com/talks/aditi_shan..._campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email"

http://www.ted.com/speakers/aditi_shankardass.html" to get to the heart of the video, fast forward to 3:05.

To sum it up:

1. Used on children with observed developmental disorders (particularly as it applies to autism)
2. Using Real Time rEEG, and two software programs:
3. Brain Electrical Activity Mapping (triangulates source of abnormality in the brain), and Statistical Probability Mapping
4. rEEG scans observed that in 50% of children diagnosed with autism (also showed signs of spacing out), they were instead suffering from hidden brain seizures, wow.
5. Once properly diagnosed they could be put on appropriate anti-seizure meds.

Rhody...

P.S. Zooby,

Funny how you had to learn about your simple partial seizures through indirect means of Dr Cytowic, but that's the serendipitous way of things I guess. Both you are nismaratwork are real smarty pants, hehe. Now, where was I. dribbles off...

Wow, that is fantastic! Rhody, Zooby, this is an absolute pleasure. I have to think about the implications of this, but I'll comment tomorrow. Really, that was a great find Rhody.

 

[rhody]

Wow, that is fantastic! Rhody, Zooby, this is an absolute pleasure. I have to think about the implications of this, but I'll comment tomorrow. Really, that was a great find Rhody.

nismaratwork,

Don't thank me, just add TED.com to your google reader/alerts or go to TED.com itself and subscribe, of every 20 video's they publish there are 2 to 4 that are real gems. Like I have said in the past, TED.com is a must for folks who want science news that "never makes the mainstream". I for one am overjoyed they are there. This was a TED alert in my inbox for a couple of days. I always check, and vet them. Glad you liked it.

Rhody...

 

[Calluuuum]

One possible explanation for your co-worker not seeming typical comes from a book I read about Asperger's which asserted it is very frequently co-morbid with either 1.) OCD, 2.) Seizures, 3.) ADD, or 4.) Tourettes. So, his blunted affect might possibly be the side effect of a med he takes for a co-morbid condition.

I know that this is an old post, but I feel the need to voice an opinion. :P

Being an Aspie myself, it happens to me quite a lot. I don't believe it's the cause of any medication, as I take none. People make me out to be a bad person when I don't care for bad events, but it's just how I am. Sometimes if the event is not affecting me myself, I don't know how to act so I just tend to do nothing about it.

 

[rhody]

On reflection of this finding, the thought occurred to me, the only way to see a rEEG evidence of a seizure (without actually waiting for one to happen, then try to get the equipment on and test for it) would be to look for warning signs in the scan and real time analysis (like tremors before an earthquake). Or, God forbid find a way to induce one. I don't believe that scenario either. So how did she, Dr Shankardass, pull this off ?

nismaratwork, zooby, aperion, SW VandeCarr ?

Rhody...

 

[nismaratwork]

On reflection of this finding, the thought occurred to me, the only way to see a rEEG evidence of a seizure (without actually waiting for one to happen, then try to get the equipment on and test for it) would be to look for warning signs in the scan and real time analysis (like tremors before an earthquake). Or, God forbid find a way to induce one. I don't believe that scenario either. So how did she, Dr Shankardass, pull this off ?

nismaratwork, zooby, aperion, SW VandeCarr ?

Rhody...

When you think of a seizure, most people think of the "grand mal" or Tonic-Clonic seizure; a massive event preceded by aura or other signs. In this case, what I'm hearing sounds like a nearly constant abnormal activity. In her website she describes this as "epileptiform" activity, which is just what is sounds like. This is not a new concept, but that it could be a factor in childhood developmental disorders is much broader application of the concept.

I'm going to assume that you have a functional knowledge of epilepsy, and if not the wikipedia article is not terrible. Because of the nature of this activity, it presents very regularly, in what I would describe as advancing and retreating waves of abnormal firing throughout the cortex. Consider this work in '99 which used EEG's sensing this activity to trigger the (then even more expensive to use) fMRI and capture the activity in real time. http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/9/1679

This is only of interest to the researchers at the time as a test of fMRI, but it shows how what Dr. Shankardass doesn't require unethical means:

We have systematically studied and resolved the issues of patient safety and pulse artefact and now report the application of the technique in 24 experiments in 10 consecutive patients with localization-related epilepsy and frequent interictal epileptiform discharges (spikes or spike wave). At least two experiments were performed for each patient. In each experiment, 10- or 20-slice snapshot gradient-echo planar images were acquired ~3.5 s after a single typical epileptiform discharge (activation image) and in the absence of discharges (control image). Between 21 and 50 epileptiform discharges were sampled in each experiment. The significance of functional activation was tested using the t test at 95% confidence on a pixel-by-pixel basis. Six of the 10 patients showed reproducible focal changes of the blood oxygen level-dependent (BOLD) signal, which occurred in close spatial relationship to the maximum of the epileptiform discharges in the concurrent EEG.

Now, for seizure activity that doesn't kindly pop up ever few minutes or more, such as the afformentioned tonic-clonic seizure, there are animal models http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WNP-4Y5BMD4-3&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F15%2F2010&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1389850943&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6fcb459d5c61c2c52407d0d9037cf3ae

and "happy" accidents. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12153004

Generally speaking, inducing this kind of seizure is no more extreme than inducing someone with schizophreniform disorder(s?) to show symptoms; it is nearly if not entirely constant. This is why I am struck by the brilliance of this approach, which while it probably doesn't account for the majority of people with developmental disorders, is still clearly a useful tool in an generally arcane arsenal.

Keep in mind, that anti-seizure medications are often perscribed off-label, in fact we have a member here who mentioned taking Gabapentin for neuropathic joint pain, and that is in fact a powerful anti-seizure drug. Autistic children are often given benzodiazapines on occasion, and again, rarely do you see a dramatic improvement. In the end, I doubt that this will prove to be the answer to most, but if it accounts for only a tiny percentage it will be a nearly miraculous breakthrough in the clinical side of this problem, and open new avenues of research into other dysfunction.

This is a study from 2009 regarding schizophrenia and the role the DMN (Default Mode Network) seems to play (or reflect?) in it. http://www.pnas.org/content/106/4/1279.full.pdf

It is in my view, an excellent piece of work, and personally knowing several of the study authors, we've discussed the wide range of roles the DMN seems to play in everything from schizophrenia, to ADHD. Everyone is still scratching their heads a bit and trying to understand if this represents a cause, or something like encoding information in the event horizon of a black hole. Once again, in this case, there is no need to induce anything, but rather it is the constant activity under various circumstances which creates the opportunity for study in such depth.

Now, this is not epileptiform, but the notion of a constant failure in the regulation of signaling across a large area is common between the two. It is, in my view, too soon to know what this means. It is soon enough to conclude that there are people out there who may be considered eccentric and are simply like those 1st degree relatives, and children who are believed to be autistic or otherwise "damaged" who are suffering from something along the lines of what Dr. Shankardass describes.

It's known that epilepsy and other seizure activity can cause damage, so the trick here was in finding what would not have been otherwise detected. The range that falls into clinically defined seizures is already covered, but this... is very interesting. This, like the exploration of the role of the DMN, represents another increase in "resolution" when looking at the picture of the brain and just how it does that voodoo... you get the idea.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

This is a study from 2009 regarding schizophrenia and the role the DMN (Default Mode Network) seems to play (or reflect?) in it. http://www.pnas.org/content/106/4/1279.full.pdf

I haven't read that yet, but once linked Charles McCreery's hypothesis about sleep, thinking it seemed a little related to this.

 

[nismaratwork]

I haven't read that yet, but once linked Charles McCreery's hypothesis about sleep, thinking it seemed a little related to this.

I'm not sure if it's related, but it would seem to be a logical extension of the "never off" theory.

 

[rhody]

nismaratwork,

I'm going to assume that you have a functional knowledge of epilepsy

Yes, second hand experience over the last 13 years. We have family friends, who lost their father 13 years ago suddenly without warning, died in his sleep. The youngest daughter, then age 3 who was very close with her Dad began to have what was later diagnosed as an epileptic seizure 3 days after her father died. Cause to this day, unknown, although the neurologist team who care for her suspect stress played a part.

Fast forward to last summer, vacation at Disney in August (yes, I know what you are thinking, are you nuts ?). Due to bad economy great deal on 2 week stay. During the trip the daughter, now almost 16 had three grand mal seizures in 14 days. The one that struck a chord with me started in the pool. I was talking to her and she spaced out for 10 - 15 seconds, then said, you could see the fear in the eyes as well, "I need to go to the room now, she knew a seizure was on the way." I didn't because I had never seen the spaced out precursor before up close and personal. We got her back to the room, not in time though, I had to fireman carry her part way. She was given a powerful suppository that took immediate effect. I would guess the seizure lasted two to three minutes.

Her Mom said that she is diagnosed as having both, petite and gran mal (now known as: Tonic–clonic). She can have either type, and the stressor's from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic%E2%80%93clonic_seizure" :

The seizure threshold can be altered by fatigue, malnutrition, lack of sleep or rest, hypertension, stress, diabetes, the presence of neon or laser flashes or lights, rapid motion or flight, blood sugar imbalances, anxiety,antihistamines and other factors

Fast forward to today, her Neurologist's have made adjustments to her meds. I am happy to report she has not had a Tonic-clonic in the past four months. A good thing because we are planning to vacation with them this August to a hot Caribbean island, so the same stressor's will be present as last year.

You also said:

it presents very regularly, in what I would describe as advancing and retreating waves of abnormal firing throughout the cortex.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlin...ear_Schr.C3.B6dinger_equation_in_water_waves":

I saw a show recently where a physicist, I am not sure of his name, who may have authored this paper: http://books.google.com/books?id=N7...resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false".

My point is: can similar models be created then used within the brain to predict the onset of the brain waves event or events that in some way mimic rogue ocean wave behavior in the brain, (with a rogue wave as a triggering event) which in turn lead to petite or Tonic–clonic seizures. If so, then can monitoring devices including stimulation sensors act to intervene before a seizure occurs ? I have to believe it could be possible, in part by consulting experts in rogue wave behavior.

Rhody...

 

[nismaratwork]

nismaratwork,

Yes, second hand experience over the last 13 years. We have family friends, who lost their father 13 years ago suddenly without warning, died in his sleep. The youngest daughter, then age 3 who was very close with her Dad began to have what was later diagnosed as an epileptic seizure 3 days after her father died. Cause to this day, unknown, although the neurologist team who care for her suspect stress played a part.

Fast forward to last summer, vacation at Disney in August (yes, I know what you are thinking, are you nuts ?). Due to bad economy great deal on 2 week stay. During the trip the daughter, now almost 16 had three grand mal seizures in 14 days. The one that struck a chord with me started in the pool. I was talking to her and she spaced out for 10 - 15 seconds, then said, you could see the fear in the eyes as well, "I need to go to the room now, she knew a seizure was on the way." I didn't because I had never seen the spaced out precursor before up close and personal. We got her back to the room, not in time though, I had to fireman carry her part way. She was given a powerful suppository that took immediate effect. I would guess the seizure lasted two to three minutes.

Her Mom said that she is diagnosed as having both, petite and gran mal (now known as: Tonic–clonic). She can have either type, and the stressor's from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic%E2%80%93clonic_seizure" :


Fast forward to today, her Neurologist's have made adjustments to her meds. I am happy to report she has not had a Tonic-clonic in the past four months. A good thing because we are planning to vacation with them this August to a hot Caribbean island, so the same stressor's will be present as last year.

You also said:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlin...ear_Schr.C3.B6dinger_equation_in_water_waves":

I saw a show recently where a physicist, I am not sure of his name, who may have authored this paper: http://books.google.com/books?id=N7...resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false".

My point is: can similar models be created then used within the brain to predict the onset of the brain waves event or events that in some way mimic rogue ocean wave behavior in the brain, (with a rogue wave as a triggering event) which in turn lead to petite or Tonic–clonic seizures. If so, then can monitoring devices including stimulation sensors act to intervene before a seizure occurs ? I have to believe it could be possible, in part by consulting experts in rogue wave behavior.

Rhody...

First, I'm glad that this young woman has found some relief from what can really be a terrible burden, and that you and her friends are going to enjoy some fun in the sun. I am going to read that paper, and I find it amazing that the Schrodinger equation can predict rogue ocean waves... that is just... amazing. I don't see why, given the proper insight and hard work that similar strides could not be made for the brain. The propagation of that storm of activity has to move from neuron to neuron, just as a wave in the ocean must move from water molecule to molecule. I'm seeing a friend tomorrow who is deeply into the realm of brain imaging, and I'm going to run this by him.

If you have this event preceded by some kind of aura, prediction is of more than academic interest, as the notion of a neurological pacemaker (not of the "Terminal Man" type!) could become a practical reality. I have to think about this, and do some reading, first being the paper you've provided. Once again Rhody, you have put some very interesting thoughts and material to back them on the table.

 

[Nicolas001]

There has been a lot of debate about considering Asperger’s as a form of Autism. Asperger's is a type of autism, but without many of the debilitating symptoms. A child with autistic will show severe lapses in the development of language. Whereas in Asperger's syndrome language skills are usually not affected at all and in fact can be above average. Children with Asperger's are sometimes referred to as having 'high functioning autism'.

 

[Andre]

Stumbling upon this thread, it occurs to me that I had several distinct Asperger traits at young age, but nowadays it seems that only one negative one is remaining and several positive ones (good albeit selective -visual- memory and visual, flexible thinking).

I tried a few tests to find average and neurotypical scores. So do I have it or not?

Why not try these?

http://www.okcupid.com/tests/the-broad-autism-phenotype-test

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

http://eqsq.com/eq-sq-tests/

http://www.queendom.com/tests/access_page/index.htm?idRegTest=1121
(my EQ is 113 )

http://www.hsperson.com/pages/test.htm

http://glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/Faces/EyesTest.aspx

http://www.faceblind.org/facetests/fgcfmt/fgcfmt_intro.php

http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php

 

[Simon01]

Autism and Aspergers are very similar but they are still characterized as two separate disorders. Autism causes include a variety of genetic and environmental factors. A child with Aspergers Disorder has a milder form of autism. These two disorders are found in the larger category named Autistic Spectrum Disorders.

 

[Haley]

Someone was saying that high functioning autistics don't try socializing as much as aspergers individuals? I was just thinking about personality traits. Wouldn't that play into an individuals differences between autistic people and such? Like, introversion and extroversion and shyness?

 

[misnderstudge]

i am not an expert at all, but my brother has aspergers and the way i would describe it is, if you take someone who is blind no vision at all and never had, and someone with 6/6 vison. a blind being autism and 6/6 being aspergers. 6/6 they can see the world they can see out side there small bubble but not like someone with 20 20. it is hard to get around talk about themselves get help and so on while a blind person can't make sense of the world at all really they need help from a dog a carer or whatever not sure if that makes sense so i do agree with it. the help you give is different when i worked in care before i became a EMT, what i would do when i met someone for the first time, i would speck to them as a "normal" person and see there reaction, it is the best way to talk to sufferers. don't speck to them as a child until you can see plainly the have the mental age of a child it can be frustrating for them if you do and make them very uneasy

 

[B220]

I think there are still way too many misconceptions about Autisic Spectrum Disorders. Too many falsehoods being spread around as facts and too many generalizations for a "spectrum" of the disorders.

I think aspergers is considered autism because they both display key symptoms, and people with aspergers are affected differently, one person may just display bits and pieces of social blindness while another may not even make eye contact their whole life.

I think its just a process of understanding the two, things change as we learn more about it.

but I think I remembering somewhere about researcher decrypting the autism genome and both aspergers and autism share the same deletions and alterations in key sections of the DNA.

 

[B220]

i am not an expert at all, but my brother has aspergers and the way i would describe it is, if you take someone who is blind no vision at all and never had, and someone with 6/6 vison. a blind being autism and 6/6 being aspergers. 6/6 they can see the world they can see out side there small bubble but not like someone with 20 20. it is hard to get around talk about themselves get help and so on while a blind person can't make sense of the world at all really they need help from a dog a carer or whatever not sure if that makes sense so i do agree with it. the help you give is different when i worked in care before i became a EMT, what i would do when i met someone for the first time, i would speck to them as a "normal" person and see there reaction, it is the best way to talk to sufferers. don't speck to them as a child until you can see plainly the have the mental age of a child it can be frustrating for them if you do and make them very uneasy

Yeah I don't like it when people talk to me like I am unintelligent. LOL most people with autism have above average intelligence... they may take you talking to them as a child like an insult... just like anyone else would.

 

[B220]

Someone was saying that high functioning autistics don't try socializing as much as aspergers individuals? I was just thinking about personality traits. Wouldn't that play into an individuals differences between autistic people and such? Like, introversion and extroversion and shyness?

I don't think personality types play into autism... but i guess that's why its considered a spectrum since autism is displayed rather differently among individuals who have it.

the only time personality is taken into consideration would be when the personality is disruptive and it would then be categorized as a personality disorder.