Why is English compulsory at school?

[FreeMitya]

Based on the notion that studying literature and going on to write a PhD thesis in the subject is about as useful as majoring in enigmatology when it comes to utility. There's a difference between being a powerful author and trying to pick apart every mundane detail in that author's opus in order to make substance out of an otherwise empty vessel

So your advice to someone only interested in literary studies or the humanities in general is that he/she just shouldn't bother? I think that's narrow-minded, and if everyone had such a mentality, we would have far fewer critical thinkers. Whether you enjoy the practice of picking apart a text or not, it can't be denied that at the very least it forces people to think about what they're perceiving which, if utilitarian values are all we care about, does help them in the real world, and can be applied when listening to political rhetoric, for example.

What if someone's experience as a student of literature turned him/her towards becoming a writer, and he/she wrote a work that, through the power and feeling of his/her writing, inspired hope in someone that had none. It is a romantic ideal, but would that not be "useful"? It would be a sad world if all we cared about were material gain like the next fast computer or a toilet that compliments us.

Still, there is more to the human experience than just utility. I happen to not believe in an afterlife, so when I and others die, I want to know that I and others lived rich lives, whether we were romantics or rationalists. If literary studies or science help individuals achieve that, I'm all for it.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Riiiiiight. Because the analysis of literature has never helped people explore new ideas and ways of thinking, nor discuss important issues that are difficult to talk about honestly do you see no advantage to things like feminist literally critique and how it can inform and help discussion on the role gender plays in society (used as an example from recently meeting someone who does just that).

Like I said, keep it a hobby; people give literary analysis so much credit. 'Let's pick apart this author's book and come up with totally subjective remarks about it that can be bent into sounding way more profound than it was meant to be. Now let's debate over our subjective interpretations of another man/woman's writing!' I find it ridiculous people make this into a PhD venture.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Like I said, keep it a hobby; people give literary analysis so much credit. 'Let's pick apart this author's book and come up with totally subjective remarks about it that can be bent into sounding way more profound than it was meant to be. Now let's debate over our subjective interpretations of another man/woman's writing!' I find it ridiculous people make this into a PhD venture.

That doesn't address my points, just reiterates your dismissal. You're also being entirely too narrow with literature, it doesn't really matter what an author intended but what can be drawn from the story. For example it doesn't matter if author X didn't intend for their book to be homophobic but if it includes cultural behaviours that are homophobic or encourage a heteronormative worldview then there is merit in analysing those themes for broader discussin. Media is after all a reflection of the culture that produces it and I don't see how you can dismiss the exploration of culture through media. To trivialise literary criticism as you are doing is a massive oversimplification.

 

[WannabeNewton]

So your advice to someone only interested in literary studies or the humanities in general is that he/she just shouldn't bother?

I don't tell others what to pursue. They can do whatever their heart desires, just don't force me to do these things in school and college.

What if someone's experience as a student of literature turned him/her towards becoming a writer, and he/she wrote a work that, through the power and feeling of his/her writing, inspired hope in someone that had none.

If he/she wants to spend his/her life writing essays about interpretations of other people's works then he/she can do just that; like I said people can pursue whatever it is they love, it doesn't matter to me. But don't tell me this is a job that carries the state of society on its shoulders. You're literally dedicating your studies to looking at writings of others and coming up with extremely subjective remarks regarding what certain things in the specific book mean. I see little to no purpose in making this a career. What you stated would be nice if it could happen; the if's are few and far apart.

 

[jbunniii]

You're literally dedicating your studies to looking at writings of others and coming up with extremely subjective remarks regarding what certain things in the specific book mean. I see little to no purpose in making this a career.

I think if you become good at doing this sort of thing persuasively, you could do well as a lawyer. But there are probably more direct ways to sharpen that skill set.

 

[WannabeNewton]

That doesn't address my points, just reiterates your dismissal. You're also being entirely too narrow with literature, it doesn't really matter what an author intended but what can be drawn from the story. For example it doesn't matter if author X didn't intend for their book to be homophobic but if it includes cultural behaviours that are homophobic or encourage a heteronormative worldview then there is merit in analysing those themes for broader discussin. Media is after all a reflection of the culture that produces it and I don't see how you can dismiss the exploration of culture through media. To trivialise literary criticism as you are doing is a massive oversimplification.

I'm not saying any of this is useless; go nuts when your friends come over for some evening tea and discuss / debate like there is no tomorrow. Can you give me any merit in pursuing entire PhD studies in this? What worth does it have? If you want a selective, scholarly audience that debates these things in their own arena then fine all the power to them. If you want to effect a grand paradigm shift in the cultural norms then how effective is that same methodology? How would you have such ideas disseminate?

 

[WannabeNewton]

I think if you become good at doing this sort of thing persuasively, you could do well as a lawyer. But there are probably more direct ways to sharpen that skill set.

That is certainly true. It is also true that people may just want to do it for the sake of loving the subject which is great of course. I just want to hear people's reasons for why they would make this into an entire PhD ordeal and then a subsequent career; it has always intrigued me (other than the reason you just gave of course).

 

[FreeMitya]

They can do whatever their heart desires, just don't force me to do these things in school and college.

Then don't force aspiring humanists to learn maths beyond the bare, everyday essentials. If I remember correctly, in my school, everyday-life maths was only available in grade eleven. Do you see the problem with this kind of thinking? It's limiting.

'Let's pick apart this author's book and come up with totally subjective remarks about it that can be bent into sounding way more profound than it was meant to be. Now let's debate over our subjective interpretations of another man/woman's writing!' I find it ridiculous people make this into a PhD venture.

I have a few problems with this. One, I think it promotes shallow thought. How are we supposed to know what's profound or not without thinking deeply about it? Do we have some sort of direct access to the author's mind? Two, you're making debate sound ridiculous. Debate teaches us to form and utter our own thoughts coherently and to process foreign thoughts. I don't see how debate about anything can be considered entirely useless.

As for your final point, the farther one takes a practice, the better one gets at it. Just as in science, you get better as you progress in your study. Given that I believe that the skills acquired in humanistic studies are useful, they would only get better, as the environment provided by graduate school is generally more demanding.

If he/she wants to spend his/her life writing essays about interpretations of other people's works then he/she can do just that; like I said people can pursue whatever it is they love, it doesn't matter to me. But don't tell me this is a job that carries the state of society on its shoulders. You're literally dedicating your studies to looking at writings of others and coming up with extremely subjective remarks regarding what certain things in the specific book mean. I see little to no purpose in making this a career. What you stated would be nice if it could happen; the if's are few and far apart.

First off, I was thinking more of the student becoming a fiction writer than an essayist. Secondly, I call upon the old aphorism "Know thyself". If biology and anthropology are simply too stale a for a person, I see a great deal of use in the knowledge of humanity provided by writers and learning how to enhance the understanding of that wisdom through critical analysis, and good teaching helps to improve those skills. The whole point of creating characters is to represent human character, but I think that goes without saying. Moreover, I think it also goes without saying that knowledge of yourself and those around you is eternally important. Not everybody is smart enough to understand human character the way, say, Shakespeare did, without assistance.

 

[FreeMitya]

That is certainly true. It is also true that people may just want to do it for the sake of loving the subject which is great of course. I just want to hear people's reasons for why they would make this into an entire PhD ordeal and then a subsequent career; it has always intrigued me (other than the reason you just gave of course).

You answered your own question; they love it. Isn't that why people pursue physics as well? I know that's why I do. If I contribute in some way, great, but I primarily want to do something I enjoy. Why would anybody else feel differently?

Many take to science out of a joyful sense of superior intellectual power; science is their own special sport to which they look for vivid experience and the satisfaction of ambition; many others are to be found in the temple who have offered the products of their brains on this altar for purely utilitarian purposes. Were an angel of the Lord to come and drive all the people belonging to these two categories out of the temple, the assemblage would be seriously depleted, but there would still be some men, of both present and past times, left inside. Our [Max] Planck is one of them, and that is why we love him.

-Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions.

 

[Tosh5457]

You're literally dedicating your studies to looking at writings of others and coming up with extremely subjective remarks regarding what certain things in the specific book mean. I see little to no purpose in making this a career. What you stated would be nice if it could happen; the if's are few and far apart.

Thankfully we live in free countries where we can do what we want. Let them do it if they love it. If they can make a living out of it, fine, if they don't, why would you care anyway?
Do you think you only do Science because it's useful? Don't you think there's anything more to it? It's pure bigotry to say that it has no purpose for people to follow something they like.

 

[micromass]

Then don't force aspiring humanists to learn maths beyond the bare, everyday essentials. If I remember correctly, in my school, everyday-life maths was only available in grade eleven. Do you see the problem with this kind of thinking? It's limiting.

You know what? I completely agree!

Please don't force me to take literary analysis classes that I think are boring and useless (again, this is my opinion only). I don't see the point in literary analysis. I would much rather take a good book and actually read it.

And likewise, if people don't enjoy mathematics (or don't think it's useful), then please don't force them to take mathematics. They should be able to do with their time what they want to.

Of course, very early in the education, there should definitely be math classes, language classes and literature classes. Just to teach the essentials. But once you get in high school, I feel that students should be completely free not to take literary analysis or math classes. It's essentially the choice of the students.

 

[FreeMitya]

You know what? I completely agree!

Please don't force me to take literary analysis classes that I think are boring and useless (again, this is my opinion only). I don't see the point in literary analysis. I would much rather take a good book and actually read it.

And likewise, if people don't enjoy mathematics (or don't think it's useful), then please don't force them to take mathematics. They should be able to do with their time what they want to.

Of course, very early in the education, there should definitely be math classes, language classes and literature classes. Just to teach the essentials. But once you get in high school, I feel that students should be completely free not to take literary analysis or math classes. It's essentially the choice of the students.

I'm actually glad I was forced to take maths. Around the beginning of high school I was still an aspiring professional musician. Had I not been forced to take maths, I wouldn't have discovered how cool it ended up being. Middle school maths wasn't very interesting to say the least. That's why I'm a little conservative regarding some aspects of education.

 

[jbunniii]

Of course, very early in the education, there should definitely be math classes, language classes and literature classes. Just to teach the essentials. But once you get in high school, I feel that students should be completely free not to take literary analysis or math classes. It's essentially the choice of the students.

The world would arguably be much better served if we replaced the current graduation requirements with a single course in personal finance, which students are not allowed to pass until they demonstrate the ability to calculate such things as "how long will it take to pay off a loan with such and such terms, and how much total will I pay?" and to understand basic contracts such as lease agreements. (Incredibly, this doesn't seem to be a graduation requirement in most school districts.)

If you can pass this, you can leave school any time you want. If you reach age 18 and haven't passed, you can leave, but you will not be allowed to sign any contracts or be extended credit until you do.

That will reduce the student population to maybe 20% of its present size (basically the kids who want to go to university), and they can study whatever they like, provided they meet whatever criteria universities wish to impose on incoming students. Education spending could be cut to a fraction of its current level, or we could maintain it and thereby raise per-student spending by a factor of 5, so the students who remain can have a really first-class education.

 

[Jow]

I don't know if we should introduce a personal finance course. Sure, it will make better citizens, but the western economy exist almost exclusively on people who are irresponsible with their money.

 

[drizzle]

High school is where one acquire all essential basic knowledge. Knowing 'fundamentals' is not restricted to one major or another, a student should know the basics of any discipline. This is much more beneficial than just focusing on certain subjects with weak backgrounds on others. However, in college, students can start to 'major' in any field of their choice. Besides, I cannot see how it's not useful, I can barely think of any discipline that does not include statistics/handling data, for example.

In any case, I'm not with leaving the option for students to decide what's fundamental or not--of course I mean science/math/language--except for some subjects which can be chosen based on students' interests.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I don't know if we should introduce a personal finance course. Sure, it will make better citizens, but the western economy exist almost exclusively on people who are irresponsible with their money.

This is golden. You sir just had a Jon Stewart moment.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Like I said, keep it a hobby; people give literary analysis so much credit. 'Let's pick apart this author's book and come up with totally subjective remarks about it that can be bent into sounding way more profound than it was meant to be. Now let's debate over our subjective interpretations of another man/woman's writing!' I find it ridiculous people make this into a PhD venture.

Again you're glibly dismissing and little else. Important fields like queer studies which have contributed to modern LGBT movements were partly born from literary criticism. The reason such subjects are worthy of PhDs is because a PhD is a novel piece of academic work. This is clearly academic so why shouldn't it be a PhD subject?

You know what? I completely agree!

Please don't force me to take literary analysis classes that I think are boring and useless (again, this is my opinion only). I don't see the point in literary analysis. I would much rather take a good book and actually read it.

And likewise, if people don't enjoy mathematics (or don't think it's useful), then please don't force them to take mathematics. They should be able to do with their time what they want to.

Of course, very early in the education, there should definitely be math classes, language classes and literature classes. Just to teach the essentials. But once you get in high school, I feel that students should be completely free not to take literary analysis or math classes. It's essentially the choice of the students.

How early? Would you agree that for mandatory schooling (schooling up to 16/18 depending on your country) it's important that students learn a bit of everything?

The world would arguably be much better served if we replaced the current graduation requirements with a single course in personal finance, which students are not allowed to pass until they demonstrate the ability to calculate such things as "how long will it take to pay off a loan with such and such terms, and how much total will I pay?" and to understand basic contracts such as lease agreements. (Incredibly, this doesn't seem to be a graduation requirement in most school districts.)

If you can pass this, you can leave school any time you want. If you reach age 18 and haven't passed, you can leave, but you will not be allowed to sign any contracts or be extended credit until you do.

That will reduce the student population to maybe 20% of its present size (basically the kids who want to go to university), and they can study whatever they like, provided they meet whatever criteria universities wish to impose on incoming students. Education spending could be cut to a fraction of its current level, or we could maintain it and thereby raise per-student spending by a factor of 5, so the students who remain can have a really first-class education.

Cute idea but I doubt it would work as the ability to make reasoned choices on financial matters requires an understanding of the subject matter as well as the finances involved. Try making a decision on whether or not it's best to spend money on medicine or herbal tea for instance. Also you wouldn't really decrease spending per students because now you have a generation of school leavers who don't really know anything and so to prepare them for either their careers or the qualifications they want to gain you're a going to have to spend a lot of money again. On top of that this negates the advantages of having a population with a broad base of education.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Except for a semester of English composition, university should be 4 extended years of vokey.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Like I said, keep it a hobby; people give literary analysis so much credit. 'Let's pick apart this author's book and come up with totally subjective remarks about it that can be bent into sounding way more profound than it was meant to be. Now let's debate over our subjective interpretations of another man/woman's writing!' I find it ridiculous people make this into a PhD venture.

If the poem's score for perfection is plotted along the horizontal of a graph, and its importance is plotted on the vertical, then calculating the total area of the poem yields the measure of its greatness.

 

[AlephZero]

Most PhD work in science is just as useless as PhD work on literature. How many PhD theses are actually read by anybody, after the approvals committee has signed them?

But that is not a good argument for abolishing science PhDs, or liberal arts PhDs either.

 

[InvalidID]

Important fields like queer studies which have contributed to modern LGBT movements were partly born from literary criticism.

Explain further.

 

[micromass]

How early? Would you agree that for mandatory schooling (schooling up to 16/18 depending on your country) it's important that students learn a bit of everything?

I would think that 16/18 is too old to bother them with useless courses (useless = courses that they don't want to take). But I don't want to put an age on it. A better system might be to set some minimal goals of what students should know. These minimal goals will typically involve a bit of everything, but it won't require extensive knowledge.

For example, for mathematics, I would want students to be able to make calculations. I would want them to understand how graphs work, how percentages work, how interest works and how to calculate it. Basically, I would want them to know things which will be useful in their later life and which will enhance their critical thinking skills.

I do not expect students to know things like the Pythagorean theorem. Because if you go on the street and ask random people what it is, then they will likely not know (at least not precisely). However, they can lead a perfect life without knowing it.

Aside from these core classes, I would make sure that students have the ability to choose advanced mathematics classes. In these classes, mathematics would be done like it should be done: rigorous and with proofs. This can actually be done because the students will be interested.

For literature, my basic criteria would be that students are able to read a text critically. That they understand the nuances in the text. I also want them to be able to write good texts themselves.

I do not expect students to sit through classes where they analyse the hell out of poems. I don't think this is a necessary skill to have for adults. Of course, interested students can choose to take the classes.

I'm not going to say that I thought out every aspect of this school system. But I'm just a proponent that students know some core skills about subjects, but that they are entirely free apart from that. And if they think that school is useless and they want to stop, then they are free to do so.

As you can tell, I'm a great fan of democratic education. But I do realize that such a thing can only decently work if the students (and teachers) are motivated to learn and improve themselves. So I'm certainly not going to say it is a perfect system that should apply everywhere. I guess it is simply an education that I would have liked.

 

[phion]

If the poem's score for perfection is plotted along the horizontal of a graph, and its importance is plotted on the vertical, then calculating the total area of the poem yields the measure of its greatness.

Poetry is a far cry from professional writing. Sure you can diagram a sentence or a stanza, but what's the use when its subjective meaning varies as wind blowing through a field of pollen? Yea, it’s pretty, and yea it’s effective in its purpose, but our definition of purpose here is a limiting one, with the targeted audience for some ethos, pathos and logos being distinctly separate from the froth of poetry.

I mean, you’re not going to write a haiku to your team when, as a PM, for example, when the goal is to migrate servers or implement an Agile software base, right? Effective writing carries with it the specificity of a well-crafted mathematical solution or proof—good communication is the kinetic energy operating behind the veil of productivity, if you will.

And to respond to your stolen quip with another stolen quip,

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.

 

[micromass]

Another thing I don't understand is why literature and poetry are held to such a high regard. Those topics are usually taught in high school. But what about music or movies?? Are they not culturally refined enough to discuss in the classroom?

I'm sure Shakespeare is brilliant. But I personally feel more emotional after listening to classic rock or after watching movies such as Lord of the Rings. But somehow, those things never end up being taught in schools. Rather, we are forced to read and analyze poems that we don't really care about.

I guess I'm saying that art is a very relative thing. Students should be taught to appreciate and understand art. If the students think that metal music is art, then so be it. Nobody can say that Shakespeare is better than metal music. Because nobody can make objective statements about art.

So I would want to let the student be more free to explore the art that they want to explore. I don't think that the student should be forced to explore something artistic. I think that is counterproductive.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Poetry is a far cry from professional writing.

Well done for missing the context of the reference. Which was in itsself a point. Technical proficiency does not make a well rounded individual. It's the humanities and culture that

Literature tends to be a commentary of some sort social, personal, political. Studying it beyond 'that's a nice story' does give an insight into oneself, expressed by the views you have about the subject. The fact that it means different things to different people is the wonderful thing about it. The discussion between two wildly different subjective views on the same peice, IS the interesting part of literature (which was be extended to all media).

Now I'll admit, I'm not a great fan of art, poetry and I only really like simple literature. I do like music. But it's through exploring culture and what it means to you that you broaden your mind and become well rounded. My favourite humanities subject was always history. Not becuase of the objective list of things that happened on certain dates, but the subjective political and social aspects behind those events.

 

[jbunniii]

Cute idea but I doubt it would work as the ability to make reasoned choices on financial matters requires an understanding of the subject matter as well as the finances involved. Try making a decision on whether or not it's best to spend money on medicine or herbal tea for instance.

The average college graduate is no better equipped to answer these questions.

Also you wouldn't really decrease spending per students because now you have a generation of school leavers who don't really know anything and so to prepare them for either their careers or the qualifications they want to gain you're a going to have to spend a lot of money again.

Any time they want to come back and finish their studies, the door is always open. I think this is better than compelling people to sit through school if they don't want to do so. Not everyone needs or wants an education. The majority neither need nor want one, and will never work a day in their life in a job that requires one. And there's nothing wrong with that. But they do need, every last one of them, the ability to understand personal finance and basic contracts. And for some reason, we aren't teaching them this ability. If the 2008 subprime mess taught us nothing else, surely it taught us that.

On top of that this negates the advantages of having a population with a broad base of education.

I don't think we have that now, best efforts of the government and educators notwithstanding. How many adults could take a pop quiz on material covered in high school and come anywhere near passing?

 

[WannabeNewton]

The prevailing argument I see for making literary analysis mandatory starting from primary school is to have a "broad" and "diverse" education. What if I don't care? Secondary education mathematics is pretty vital in order to thrive in an economically functioning society but I can hardly say my knowledge of pointless discussions in English class over Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities (a brilliant and thought provoking book which goes without saying) will ever help me in the way I mentioned. This whole idea of a "broad" education is a handicap for people who want to devote more time in high school to mathematics and physics or biology or what have you. What if I don't care about studying the dynamics of culture(s)? I hate the idea of culture all together. I just feel like when it comes to things like art and literature, as micromass said, it is very unfair to make it mandatory for nearly 12 years of education. I'd rather have a detailed analysis of a Kubrick film but for some reason THIS is taboo in classes.

 

[AlephZero]

What if I don't care about studying the dynamics of culture(s)? I hate the idea of culture all together.

That one is easy enough to answer. If you want to be an effective scentist/mathematician/engineer, you are going to have to get along with a lot of people who don't share the same cultural values that you learned in your own back yard. (Replace "cultural values" by whatever politically correct terms you prefer, if you hate the idea of "culture".)

 

[WannabeNewton]

I tolerate all cultures, that isn't an issue. I myself have stripped off all cultural associations my parents forced on me and I hate learning about them; I don't need to waste one class period everyday, 5 days a week to know how to tolerate cultures in public. I don't find this a convincing reason to make literature classes mandatory.

 

[micromass]

That one is easy enough to answer. If you want to be an effective scentist/mathematician/engineer, you are going to have to get along with a lot of people who don't share the same cultural values that you learned in your own back yard. (Replace "cultural values" by whatever politically correct terms you prefer, if you hate the idea of "culture".)

I really fail to see how literature courses help you tolerate and other cultures...

 

[Astronuc]

I really fail to see how literature courses help you tolerate and other cultures...

I think the expectation is that the literature (fiction) contains stories about characters, their experiences, their behaviors, their thinking, . . . which are often outside one's own experience and culture. Apparently one is supposed to appreciate others who are different and the culture in which they live.

Of course, some people could read said literature and find themselves with a dislike for the characters and culture.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Of course, some people could read said literature and find themselves with a dislike for the characters and culture.

I think this is a very good point. I can wholeheartedly say that "A Brave New World", "1984", "Ender's Game", "A Clockwork Orange", "Animal Farm", and "Fahrenheit 451" have greatly impacted my being misanthropic and cynical. Regardless, they are my most favorite non lord of the rings related books ever (especially "A Clockwork Orange" - I love this book so much).

 

[FreeMitya]

The prevailing argument I see for making literary analysis mandatory starting from primary school is to have a "broad" and "diverse" education. What if I don't care? Secondary education mathematics is pretty vital in order to thrive in an economically functioning society but I can hardly say my knowledge of pointless discussions in English class over Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities (a brilliant and thought provoking book which goes without saying) will ever help me in the way I mentioned.

I think there is similar thinking behind forcing a balanced curriculum as there is behind drinking ages, smoking ages, the age of consent, etc., and that is that young people don't necessarily know what's good for them. Being forced to do something may seem barbaric to some, but what if your scientific venture fails, for example, what have you to fall back on? There is a massive gap in your education going all the way back to the beginning of high school if you chose to only study maths and science. That is why the most academic freedom comes in university, when most students are mature enough to make decisions and are generally more intellectually developed.

 

[micromass]

I think the expectation is that the literature (fiction) contains stories about characters, their experiences, their behaviors, their thinking, . . . which are often outside one's own experience and culture. Apparently one is supposed to appreciate others who are different and the culture in which they live.

Of course, some people could read said literature and find themselves with a dislike for the characters and culture.

OK, but just reading books is enough for that. I still don't see how a literary analysis class accomplishes the goal.
If the goal is to respect cultures, then movies do a great job as well. And so does actually talking to people of a different culture.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Being forced to do something may seem barbaric to some, but what if your scientific venture fails, for example, what have you to fall back on? There is a massive gap in your education going all the way back to the beginning of high school if you chose to only study maths and science.

And my ability to write extended essays about literary elements of a novel will rescue me in the event of such failure how exactly...?