Why is the math output hard to read sometimes?

[robphy]

Unfortunately this IE6 problem is not going to go away. Anyone browsing from home has no problem, they can install any browser they like. But if you're using someone else's computer (e.g. your employer's), in many cases you are simply not allowed to install anything else. It doesn't matter how many arguments there are in favour of upgrading, if the IT department doesn't allow it, you're stuck.

Yes, this is quite true.
I posted a possible solution earlier... basically use
the disliked-but-more-compatible gif-with-transparency
rather than
the better-liked-but-less-compatible png-with-transparency.
(While IE6 may be disliked, there are just too many of them out there.)

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2238517#post2238517

(By the way, one possible away around the employer is to use (say)
the portable version of Firefox ( http://portableapps.com/apps/internet/firefox_portable ) which can be installed on a USB drive. You can use that, on the assumption you can or are allowed to mount the USB drive. However, the most practical solution IMHO is to use gif.)

 

[chroot]

I'm going to try a few things to see if I can improve the look of the images under IE6. They will probably never look as good as they do in reasonably recent browsers, but I think I can at least make them gray instead of black.

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of IE6, and don't think I can find one. MS will not give you one anymore, and I don't think anyone's interested in keeping around copies of dead software that won't even run on modern operating systems...

I really want to emphasize that a very large part of the internet, sites which use Web 2.0 technologies, are or soon will be inaccessible to people running ancient, unsupported browsers. PF is least of your concerns. I personally find it very offensive that some of you are upset with me for not being compatible with a browser that I cannot even obtain anymore. I find it even more offensive that you think it's my responsibility to support you -- I'm a volunteer -- rather than your own responsibility to pressure your (paid) IT department or whatever to do their jobs and maintain your software.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

Alright, I did some work on the LaTeX system. Those of you unfortunate enough to be using IE6, please let me know how the images look now. I suspect they will have a white, non-transparent background -- maybe not the best possible solution, but readable.

I also did some work on the alignment of inline LaTeX, so please experiment with it and let me know what you think.

- Warren

 

[DrGreg]

I personally find it very offensive that some of you are upset with me for not being compatible with a browser that I cannot even obtain anymore. I find it even more offensive that you think it's my responsibility to support you -- I'm a volunteer -- rather than your own responsibility to pressure your (paid) IT department or whatever to do their jobs and maintain your software.

It wasn't my intention to offend and I greatly appreciate the good work you put into this site.

Despite what I've said, for me, being able to browse this site at work is a luxury I can survive without, as I do all my serious browsing and contributing from home. Nevertheless, I suspect the number of IE6s out there may be surprisingly large.

I'm at home now but I'll check out the LaTeX at work tomorrow. Thanks for your effort.

(In my experience, the function of a corporate IT department isn't to serve the employees but rather to prevent them doing what they'd like to do. In my case, the only USB keys permitted are specially crippled ones which only support a handful of document types (EXEs excluded). Sigh.)

 

[tiny-tim]

inline LaTeX

ooh, that looks perfect, Warren! …

(for magnetic moment $\bold{\mu}$):

(for magnetic moment $mu$):
​

(compare with same text in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2236420&postcount=64")

hmm … let's try three over x squared now:

let's try $\frac{3}{x^2}$ now, and $\frac{x^2}{3}$ also …

yup! ​

 

[DrGreg]

The IE6 problem

Alright, I did some work on the LaTeX system. Those of you unfortunate enough to be using IE6, please let me know how the images look now. I suspect they will have a white, non-transparent background -- maybe not the best possible solution, but readable.

Thanks for trying, but no, they are still on a black background (screenshot attached).

For what it's worth, I googled "ie6 png transparency" and the second hit was this which describes a workaround in CSS or JavaScript. The other hits all seem to describe something similar. I don't know if you can apply such patches to your bulletin board software, and I'm not expert to fully understand what is being said. I appreciate the extreme difficulty of not being able to see the effect of any change you make!

Also, for what it's worth, apparently IE6 was, during May 2009, still the third most used browser for accessing search engines, according to this

1. IE7 41%
2. FF3 20%
3. IE6 17%
4. IE8 7%
5. Safari 3.2 5%

 

[Redbelly98]

Also, for what it's worth, apparently IE6 was, during May 2009, still the third most used browser for accessing search engines, according to this

1. IE7 41%
2. FF3 20%
3. IE6 17%
4. IE8 7%
5. Safari 3.2 5%

I think we can expect the IE6 number to drop as time goes on (and for IE8 to rise). In fact, there is no way for the # of IE6 users to rise as it is impossible for new computers to get IE6. Food for thought: the same website lists IE5 at just 0.07%.

Is it reasonable for Warren to bang his head against the wall over this when, a year from now, IE6 may be nowhere near the Top 5 Browsers list?

 

[Count Iblis]

I think we can expect the IE6 number to drop as time goes on (and for IE8 to rise). In fact, there is no way for the # of IE6 users to rise as it is impossible for new computers to get IE6. Food for thought: the same website lists IE5 at just 0.07%.

Is it reasonable for Warren to bang his head against the wall over this when, a year from now, IE6 may be nowhere near the Top 5 Browsers list?

There are many people in third world countries who are running Windows 95 or Windows 98 on old computers. They will be running the highest version of IE that their machine is capable of running, and that will be IE6. So, IE6 will stabilize at some level close to what it is now.

 

[Hans de Vries]

There are many people in third world countries who are running Windows 95 or Windows 98 on old computers. They will be running the highest version of IE that their machine is capable of running, and that will be IE6. So, IE6 will stabilize at some level close to what it is now.

Windows 95 and Windows 98 together would be well below 1%
Even Windows 2000 is dropping below 1% now.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=11Regards, Hans

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

12% of PF users are viewing via IE6

Less than 1% are using Windows 98 or 95.

 

[gmax137]

...I personally find it very offensive that some of you are upset with me for not being compatible with a browser that I cannot even obtain anymore. I find it even more offensive that you think it's my responsibility to support you -- I'm a volunteer -- rather than your own responsibility to pressure your (paid) IT department or whatever to do their jobs and maintain your software.

- Warren

Warren if I am one that offended you, please accept a sincere apology. I certainly am not 'upset' with you or anything you do - and I don't feel you or any of the others involved in making PF work owe me anything. You are doing a tremendous service to me and all the other users at the forum.

Thanks
Gregg

 

[CRGreathouse]

I would be bothered by it more were it not for the fact that browsers that can display PNGs correctly are freely available (Firefox, Opera, etc.).

 

[g_edgar]

It's very light. I can hardly see this: $e^{\ln x} = 7$.

Is there a philosophical objection to a white background?

 

[Redbelly98]

Is there a philosophical objection to a white background?

Yes. Since a white background doesn't match the surrounding background, every LaTex image gets this white rectangle surrounding it. It looks very unprofessional -- we had this problem for a while last fall.

For an example, check out https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=267150

 

[CRGreathouse]

What about setting the background to #E3E3E3 with transparency 254 (or opaqueness 1; I don't remember the right terminology)? Or is the mere presence of an alpha layer enough to make IE6 display the color as gray?

 

[g_edgar]

Yes. Since a white background doesn't match the surrounding background, every LaTex image gets this white rectangle surrounding it. It looks very unprofessional -- we had this problem for a while last fall.

No, I mean the entire message area with white background. Of course you don't want the formula background different than the rest of the message background.

If your newspaper published on gray-colored paper like this, it would be less legible, I think. Paper that is brighter white is more expensive, because (among other reasons) the resulting printouts are more legible. But on a web page, we can use any color we want for the same price!

 

[Redbelly98]

No, I mean the entire message area with white background. Of course you don't want the formula background different than the rest of the message background.

If your newspaper published on gray-colored paper like this, it would be less legible, I think. Paper that is brighter white is more expensive, because (among other reasons) the resulting printouts are more legible. But on a web page, we can use any color we want for the same price!

Okay, now I understand what you meant. Sorry.

Greg would be a better person to answer the question about having a white background at PF.

 

[DrGreg]

ITEX top row missing?

It looks like ITEX might be shaving the top row of pixels off the image

ITEX: $\sqrt{2}$ but $\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}$

TEX: $$\sqrt{2}$$ but $$\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}$$

Or does ITEX deliberately treat square roots that way?

 

[jackiefrost]

I know the black background problem with IE6 is an old, stale, issue but... my place of employment won't upgrade and Firefox doesn't work correctly on the network (ours) BUT - I found to my delight that Google Chrome doesn't get me in trouble with the IT ppl and displays Latex beautifully. Hallelu...I forget how to spell it :)

So - the moral to the story is - don't forget to try installing Chrome if you're stuck with IE6.

(Don't ask why we're messing with PF at work ;-)
jf

 

[n!kofeyn]

I've noticed that the http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/" LaTeX is much easier to read and seems to automatically output inline with text. Is there any way you could look into how they render their LaTeX?

 

[robphy]

I've noticed that the http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/" LaTeX is much easier to read and seems to automatically output inline with text. Is there any way you could look into how they render their LaTeX?

They output rendered equations as .gif.

 

[n!kofeyn]

Is there a reason why PF chooses its method (I don't know what that is)? Is outputting in .gif too slow? To be honest, their LaTeX output is nicer, and DrGreg is right, as I noticed that the square root was cutoff in one of my inline equations, which is annoying because it could cause confusion and the [tex] tag aligns things awkwardly inline.

 

[junglebeast]

testing

$$\sum_{n=a}^bf(n)$$

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/08/06/internet.explorer.six/index.html

Upgrade those browsers folks. The end is near ;)