Will BP's Top Kill Procedure Stop the Gulf Oil Spill?

[magpies]

Ahh ok just incase someone was wondering I just checked a barrel of oil is 42 gallons.

 

[Geigerclick]

I love it when people blame government and oil companies for their need to drill.

I wasn't aware that there was a need to drill at that depth, in coastal waters. The "foreign oil" argument falls flat when this kind of disaster does more harm than terrorists or hostile governments could hope to achieve. I also don't need the drilling to be done irresponsibly, and overseen by agencies too busy snorting crystal methamphetamine off the naked buttocks of a low-rent prostitute (MMS).

I need water too, it doesn't mean I want our government or BP to piss down my throat.

 

[GeorginaS]

This was nothing but simple greed overwhelming common sense. The only lesson to be learned is that industry is irresponsible, dangerous, reckless, and not to be trusted. But what is most disheartening is to see that some people don't get it. It makes me sick to see people constantly making excuses when this was entirely preventable. In Norway, they require that a relief well be drilled in parallel with the primary well. That way, they don't have to wait three months before stopping a leak in a situation like this. Why should we have to pass legislation for BP, or any oil company, to use common sense? There is only one answer: They can't be trusted.

First the recklessness and greed of the financial markets nearly destroyed the world economy. Now BP may have killed the gulf, and still we hear rationalizations and excuses being made for them by the victims. This is insane!

This almost strikes me as something akin to Stockholm Syndrome.

Canada has the same relief well requirement for off-shore drilling. It is required or they can't get a drilling permit, period. As recently as couple of weeks prior to this Gulf catastrophe, the big oil companies were petitioning the National Energy Board to relax regulations

At issue is an industry bid to change a federal rule requiring energy companies to complete a "relief well" in the same season as they drill their working well. Some companies have been trying to persuade the board that a relief well, a safety measure, is no longer necessary because of technological advances in offshore drilling.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=2981928#ixzz0pHw0LNil

If we're evil socialists, then I'm glad we are.

 

[magpies]

Your glad your an evil socialist? There is a better way...

 

[GeorginaS]

Maybe I should expand upon that a bit. It was a wry joke to say we're evil socialists. It's just a usual accusation made of Canada when trying to scare USian voters into doing something that profits businesses and not peoples.

But the relief well drilling is essential for the safety of these off-shore rigs -- BP is currently working at digging one right now next to the current disaster in the Gulf. But it'll take months to complete. It's the only sure-fire method to handle this type of catastrophe immediately. It's not required by US regulations.

And the lack of regulation on business and/or deregulation makes me angry beyond words because the damage that's happened in the Gulf right now didn't have to happen or be anywhere near the catastrophe it is. And when one giant hunk of the planet is severely damaged, it has consequences for all of us. And watching this whole thing unfold with so many people standing around hand-wringing has made me want to yell at someone. If I only knew who to yell at.

Anyway, all current standing off-shore rigs that don't have relief wells should be legislated into building one. Now. Not now, but right now. That's a huge part of this puzzle.

 

[magpies]

Well I may agree that a relief well will help but I highly doubt it is sure-fire. I don't really understand why you think deregulation caused this. Of course it can seem that way because deregulation makes it easyer for "evil" companys to do things. However it is not the deregulation that is the problem here it would be the evil company that is the problem. However combined with an "evil" government things get worse. The term evil is not great because they are infact not trying to be evil they are just simply to large. The way large governments work is one person makes a "rule" and 10,000,000,000 people below him have to live with it. It's rank and file chain of command in the worst way. The 1 person at the top has no idea how his "rule" will effect each and every of the billions of people. So really the main problem is that we have forgotten to work on our own efforts and instead let someone miles away make the choice for us.

 

[jreelawg]

The mineral management services has been too cozy. Environmental impact studies have been waved for reasons which make no sense. And, BP's permit stating their capability to handle a maximum spill rate of 300,000 barrels per day, turned out to not be very accurate. So in a way, even though some regulations were in place which could have helped, they weren't enforced.

Rather than requiring the oil company to have the capability to handle a worst case scene, they only require them to lie and say than can. I think there is a good deal of crime that was committed by both some of BP's people, and government officials. The only way to make sure it doesn't happen again is to enforce the law, and prove that committing fraud and negligence is punishable, otherwise there is not incentive to follow the rules.

I also don't understand though, how the EPA can order BP to stop using the toxic dispersants while BP ignores them and continues with little concern. Is this not punishable? Can't we arrest there Operating Officer for this offense?

Everyone is so concerned about drilling oil on our own shores, chanting drill baby drill, so we can have a foreign company come here, drill on our shores, not follow the rules, put our ecosystems at risk for their foreign profit, and then make a huge mess and act like they have more power on american soil than the american government. Ironically it's these same people who are "re-enacting the tea party". Dumping british tea bags in the ocean is one thing, but now we have the british dumping our oil into our ocean.

 

[magpies]

Ya I remember learning about how parts form equipment was ending up in the oil they pumped and they just said ahhh what harm could it do? And then kept on pumping.

 

[jreelawg]

One thing that bugs me, is when people say we shouldn't point fingers, just concentrate on the problem.

When I watched the three companies involved, testify before congress under oath, what I saw, was a whole lot being learned about what went wrong with the equiptment, what improvements/technology could make it safer, what the nature is of the current regulations, wether they were enforced, whether they were insufficient. I learned about the risks of drilling in the ocean, the nature and effectiveness the technology used in cleanup efforts.

And when I saw the news in the media, all they mostly reported on about the event, was that it was some kind of useless blame game.

It seams we are all supposed to stay dumb about the important details, and turn it into some kind of political game.

I am also annoyed increasingly by the masses of political commentators who like to boil basically every move of an administration to a move to get votes. They all have to say how Obama going to the gulf was an important political maneuver, he did this so that he can win votes. If anyone was president of the U.S., and worth a **** they would go down there to see what's going on first hand.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The point of the moment was the magnitude of the "environmental disaster" not the difficulty of capping the well. The flow rate of Ixtoc was about the http://www.incidentnews.gov/entry/508790" miles off Mexico, DHS 50+ miles off Louisiana, with 71,500 bbls of Ixtoc oil ending up on US beaches.

1). In the case of the Ixtoc, only a week's worth of the leak actually hit land in the US. Most of it went north into the deep Atlantic.

2). In the case of this spill, almost all of the oil is heading towards land - the most sensitive wetlands in the gulf.

3). The Ixtoc was a heck of a lot farther from Texas - 600+ miles - than the Deep Horizon is from La - 50+ miles. The distance from Mexico is irrelevant for this comparison.

4). The flow was reduced over time to 10k barrels per day - less than the minimum estimated flow rate for this leak of 12,000 barrels per day. According to the current official estimate, we could be as high as 19,000 barrels per day. So again, what hit the US in 1979 was only about a week's worth of THIS spill, but over a range of 600 miles. This suggests that there may have been ten times as much time for the oil to weather and solidify, before hitting land.

 

[magpies]

Well you this one is worse in nature I doubt anyone at least anyone from america would not agree but they are almost the same enough for me to say that you this type of oil spill can happen.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well you this one is worse in nature I doubt anyone at least anyone from america would not agree but they are almost the same enough for me to say that you this type of oil spill can happen.

I think it is important to remember this the next time someone tries to argue that the odds of this or that happening are too low to worry about. For example, "We know the reactor can't fail - we've calculated the odds!"

So after the engineers for these huge projects are all done calculating their odds, I give it a 50-50 chance that either they have missed something significant [more likely, many variables have not been considered] or the integrity of the risk evaluation process has been compromised by greed.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Is there any chance they could put an upside down funnel over the leak to bring the oil to the surface? There it would be skimmed into tankers and then ... I don't know, can you get rid of it once it's in a tanker?

 

[GeorginaS]

Is there any chance they could put an upside down funnel over the leak to bring the oil to the surface? There it would be skimmed into tankers and then ... I don't know, can you get rid of it once it's in a tanker?

No.

{Apparently a one word answer is too short. My answer remains: no.}

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

No.

{Apparently a one word answer is too short. My answer remains: no.}

If I wanted an answer like that I would have posted to a religious forum. Anyone care to go for two words?

 

[Office_Shredder]

They tried that already. The funnel filled up with some methane crystals or something

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

They tried that already. The funnel filled up with some methane crystals or something

That's a solvable problem.

 

[Geigerclick]

That's a solvable problem.

They tried twice, tried pumping methanol as an antifreeze in the second case. It may be solvable, but not right now, not at that depth, and not in time compared to other approaches.

 

[RonL]

Is there any chance they could put an upside down funnel over the leak to bring the oil to the surface? There it would be skimmed into tankers and then ... I don't know, can you get rid of it once it's in a tanker?

This was tried and failed, but the wrong system was tried.
A flexable walled tube of some kind of fabric and large enough to allow for expansion at the surface of the gulf, might work. Supporting guide cables held in place on the bottom, by concrete pads, and a large floating ring at the surface.
The walls would be flexable and would not accumalate any kind of buildup.

I think a second well might be quicker.

 

[Geigerclick]

This was tried and failed, but the wrong system was tried.
A flexable walled tube of some kind of fabric and large enough to allow for expansion at the surface of the gulf, might work. Supporting guide cables held in place on the bottom, by concrete pads, and a large floating ring at the surface.
The walls would be flexable and would not accumalate any kind of buildup.

I think a second well might be quicker.

Definitely quicker, but it makes you wonder why such a device is not in storage for such a contingency. Your idea seems like it would work, and it would be easier to circulate warm water and methanol in your concept.

 

[OmCheeto]

I can so relate to this kids attitude:

Subject: Fwd: Day 7

OK so we started pumping again tonight. We transferred all our 14 pound (per gallon) mud off and filled our tanks with 16.4 pound (per gallon) mud. We are hoping that this heavier mud will pack in tighter and plug this thing. The lighter mud just blew out. We are even talking about using 17, 18 or 19 pound mud. We'll see how it goes. Its pretty exciting out here! Its like playing with toys in the mud as a kid but now I get to play with big boy toys. This boat is so bad ***! The entire thing starts to shake when we are pumping at full speed. We have eight pumps that are 3000 horse power and up to 20,000 PSI each. When we have them all going that's 24,000 Horse Power of hydraulic pumping. There is no other boat with this level of power! Not to mention that the bridge is super high tech with 14 touch screen computers and 10 other control computers and looks like something out of star trek. Love it :)
So overall, everything is looking good with the Job so far. We're just trying different types of mud. We just ordered a ton of groceries, potable water and supplies to be delivered to us. I don't think we're going anywhere anytime soon. This could take another week.
Love you all. I'll keep you posted.

I've been receiving emails from the scene via my sister via the above kids mom, so I'm losing the original date/time stamp. But I believe the above was sent out last night.

Here is the email I received on Friday May 21, 2010:

Well we just arrived on location (0700 Friday Morning). We have 625,000 gallons of engineered mud ready to push down the hole. The scene is surreal. The sun came up this morning right between the three massive oil rigs and the burn off torch was blazing away. We are 8 miles from the well standing by waiting for the green light. Positives: No sign of oil in the water yet! However we are on 10 miles to the south of the well. I'm sure the majority of the oil is drifting to the north. We'll see soon enough. I'll keep you posted

Much love - B

I think he was probably 3 years old the last time I saw him.

Git'er done kid!

 

[mheslep]

That's a solvable problem.

Video of hydrate creation in deep water.
http://www.olemiss.edu/depts/mmri/programs/hydrates_01.wmv
Methane+water forms ice at 20 degrees C or below at that pressure (5000' deep).

 

[mheslep]

4). The flow was reduced over time to 10k barrels per day - less than the minimum estimated flow rate for this leak of 12,000 barrels per day. According to the current official estimate, we could be as high as 19,000 barrels per day.

That's the amount originally coming out before the insertion tube tap. Amount drifting away since then is less the the amount siphoned off, what, 5k bbb/day?

 

[GeorginaS]

If I wanted an answer like that I would have posted to a religious forum. Anyone care to go for two words?

My apologies. I thought you were joking. I envisioned a Bugs Bunny sort-of giant funnel and a vacuuming/suction boat on the water's surface.

 

[Glennage]

Scientists say the images may offer clues to whether BP is getting the upper hand in its struggle to contain the oil, said Tony Wood, director of the National Spill Control School at Texas A&M University in Corpus Christi. If the stuff coming out of the pipe is jet black, it is mostly oil and BP is losing. If it is whitish, it is mostly gas and BP is also losing.

If it is muddy brown, as it was much of Friday, that may be a sign that BP is starting to win, he said. That "may in fact mean that there's mud coming up and mud coming down as well," which is better than oil coming out, Wood said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20100529/us-gulf-oil-spill/"

Now take a look at the colour...

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/homepage/STAGING/local_assets/bp_homepage/html/rov_stream.html"

They are trying something new today, "The Saw"...Won't work.

Look at BP's response plans:

Plan A: The Dome (Save The Oil)

Plan B: Top Hat (Save The Oil)

Plan C: Garden Hose (Save The Oil)

Plan D: Topkill (Save The Oil)

Plan E: Junkshot (Save The Oil)

Plan F: New BOP (Save The Oil)

Plan G: Bigger Insertion Tube (Save The Oil)

Plan F: Drill 2 relief wells (Save The Oil)

Hmmm??

What do these response plans all have in common?

Did anyone see this either?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/may/27/north-sea-oil-rig-gas-threat

 

[Glennage]

From what I understand it takes at least 100 hours to finish the mud portion of the top kill, so calling it a failure now cannot be supported; Glennage is clearly mistaken.

The drilling mud is nasty stuff however:

http://news.discovery.com/tech/how-bps-top-kill-will-work-we-hope.html
http://www.formatebrines.com/

Water or oil based, it usually contains Barite, or Cesium.

Hayward stated they are using a water base, which means that it is likely this mud:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3962099.html

It's nasty stuff, but compared to at least 11 million gallons of crude and over 600 thousand of dispersants, if it works, it would be worth it. If not, it'a 50,000+ pounds of toxic and sometimes mildly radioactive mud.

Nope, I wasn't mistaken... It failed.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream3&hpt=T1

Looks a LOT worse.

 

[zomgwtf]

Nope, I wasn't mistaken... It failed.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream3&hpt=T1

Looks a LOT worse.

People really need to stop posting to live feeds of this incident and claiming it 'looks a lot worst' or 'look at the colour now' because I am highly skeptical that any person on these forums is a trained professional who can make such a comment.

Do you have an actual news source? Or perhaps a comment by a professional saying it has already failed?

I mean a few posts back we can see OmCheeto posting that he gets updates (which is pretty cool actually) from someone actually working on this and who is actually involved in the topkill procedure. In those e-mails (the one which he thinks was from last night) it clearly says they are still going ahead with the topkill and are going to continue to move up in weight of the mud... That to me doesn't sound like failure it just sounds like they are still working on it.

 

[Glennage]

People really need to stop posting to live feeds of this incident and claiming it 'looks a lot worst' or 'look at the colour now' because I am highly skeptical that any person on these forums is a trained professional who can make such a comment.

Do you have an actual news source? Or perhaps a comment by a professional saying it has already failed?

I mean a few posts back we can see OmCheeto posting that he gets updates (which is pretty cool actually) from someone actually working on this and who is actually involved in the topkill procedure. In those e-mails (the one which he thinks was from last night) it clearly says they are still going ahead with the topkill and are going to continue to move up in weight of the mud... That to me doesn't sound like failure it just sounds like they are still working on it.

I have a friend of a friend of a friend who works on Rigs.

It's not a "claim" its looking worse, it's a CLEAR observation, maybe you need glasses?

Here is your proof non the less... Zzzzz

Latest Attempt by BP to Plug Oil Leak in Gulf of Mexico Fails

HOUSTON — BP engineers failed again to plug the gushing oil well on Saturday, a technician working on the project said, representing yet another setback in a series of unsuccessful procedures the company has tried a mile under the sea to stem the flow spreading into the Gulf of Mexico.

BP made a third attempt at what is termed the “junk shot” Friday night, a procedure that involves pumping odds and ends like plastic cubes, knotted rope, and golf balls into the blowout preventer, the five-story safety device atop the well. The maneuver is complementary to the heavily scrutinized effort known as a “top kill,”which began four days ago and involves pumping heavy mud into the well to counteract the push of the escaping oil. If the well is sealed, the company plans to then fill it with cement.

The technician working on the project said Saturday pumping has again been halted and a review of the data so far is under way.

“Right now, I would not be optimistic,” the technician, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak publicly about the effort. But he added, that if another attempt at the junk shot were to succeed, “that would turn things around.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/us/30spill.html

So in other words, they tried the Top Kill, it failed. Tried the junk shot, it failed. NOW they are trying what's known as the saw.

My friend of a friend of a friend told me this from his Rig.

 

[OmCheeto]

Nope, I wasn't mistaken... It failed.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream3&hpt=T1

Looks a LOT worse.

If you look closely at the clock, you'll see that it is not a live feed.

The http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/homepage/STAGING/local_assets/bp_homepage/html/rov_stream.html" clock matches my clock within a minute.

Oh, and here are some http://home.europa.com/~garry/Horizon_Ops.pdf" the son of my friend sent about a week ago.
(~700k pdf)

I'd have posted them earlier, but I wanted to get permission from the source. His mom was away from the computer for several days so there was a bit of a delay from when I sent the request.

Hi OmCheeto's sister ;
I've been gone for a few days. Just got home this afternoon.
Sure you can post the pictures.

 

[Glennage]

If you look closely at the clock, you'll see that it is not a live feed.

The http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/homepage/STAGING/local_assets/bp_homepage/html/rov_stream.html" clock matches my clock within a minute.

Oh, and here are some http://home.europa.com/~garry/Horizon_Ops.pdf" the son of my friend sent about a week ago.
(~700k pdf)

I'd have posted them earlier, but I wanted to get permission from the source. His mom was away from the computer for several days so there was a bit of a delay from when I sent the request.

And all that means...?

P.S - I heard it is a Live Feed, just different time zones.

 

[OmCheeto]

And all that means...?

P.S - I heard it is a Live Feed, just different time zones.

Nope. It's the same feed, only delayed around 5 hours.

CNN 07:52
BP 13:10 (central)
Om's local time 11:11 (pacific)

The digital information on the images is identical with the exception of the time.

 

[RonL]

If you look closely at the clock, you'll see that it is not a live feed.

The http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/homepage/STAGING/local_assets/bp_homepage/html/rov_stream.html" clock matches my clock within a minute.

Oh, and here are some http://home.europa.com/~garry/Horizon_Ops.pdf" the son of my friend sent about a week ago.
(~700k pdf)

I'd have posted them earlier, but I wanted to get permission from the source. His mom was away from the computer for several days so there was a bit of a delay from when I sent the request.

Thanks for the pictures Om,

We all need to hope for the weather to stay like it is.

Ron

 

[Glennage]

Nope. It's the same feed, only delayed around 5 hours.

CNN 07:52
BP 13:10 (central)
Om's local time 11:11 (pacific)

The digital information on the images is identical with the exception of the time.

Well just watch the BP one then, its worse.

 

[RonL]

To me it seems like keeping the well at bay using high pressure mud, in the long run would be less of a cost. The mud is far less toxic and would not require an extended cleanup.

At these high pressures erosion of the steel pipes will happen very quickly.
Might be the very reason the junk shot did not work. The interior of the BOP might already be washing out.

 

[OmCheeto]

Thanks for the pictures Om,

We all need to hope for the weather to stay like it is.

Ron

You're welcome Ron.

I have his newest update that I will send out tonight.

I'll keep you posted.