Wisconsin labor protests it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days

[CAC1001]

Here's how I see it. Democrats leave so that unions don't get busted. Republican governor threatens to lay off employees unless the Democrats return. That's blackmail, clear and simple.

I have to disagree. Because the Democrats had no right to leave in the first place. They are stalling the vote. If the vote can't take place, then other measures will have to be taken. That's not blackmail. Wisconsin is a democratic system. The way democracy works is if your party loses to the point that the other party can do what they want, then tough. That's just how it works. If the people don't like it, they can vote the party out for overreaching and vote the other party back in. If the people of Wisconsin really don't like this, I think they might even be able to oust Walker via a recall come January 2012.

 

[AlephZero]

The way that politics works is that you use whatever tools you have, within the rules, to get your way. What is the essential difference between preventing a vote by making the meeting inquorate, or preventing a vote by filibustering? Not much.

For example in the UK parliament, there have been MPs from Northern Ireland who have been elected and repeatedly re-elected, when everybody voting for them knows perfectly well that they will never actually take their seats and participate in the business of parliament, as a matter of principle. The one and only point in their election manifesto is to prevent anybody else from representing the constituency, and the electorate support them in that action.

So I'm not sure how "forcing" elected representatives to do anything (especially something against their will) can be callled "democracy".

 

[CAC1001]

So I'm not sure how "forcing" elected representatives to do anything (especially something against their will) can be callled "democracy".

The filibuster is a parliamentary procedure. No one is forcing elected representatives to do anything against their will, they can vote against the bill.

 

[Al68]

Then they should return any money I am paying to their salary for them to do their job. And they did flee and hide. We didn't find out where they went for a couple days after they went missing.

It's like an old-fashioned filibuster just like Robert Byrd used to do. Well, except they don't have to stand and talk the whole time. Or be present at session. Or be in town. Or in the state.

But other than that, it's just an old-fashioned honest filibuster.

 

[Al68]

Here's how I see it. Democrats leave so that unions don't get busted. Republican governor threatens to lay off employees unless the Democrats return. That's blackmail, clear and simple.

Pretty big difference between how you see it and reality. The reality is that no union busting is being advocated by anyone as a matter of objective fact, and using the word blackmail to refer to the Governor instead of the Dem. legislators seems to ignore which side is trying to use the democratic process and which side is blocking it to try to demand their way.

Those Democrats are using fraud, deception, hateful propaganda, outright lies, and obstruction to try to undermine the democratic process.

 

[Char. Limit]

Pretty big difference between how you see it and reality. The reality is that no union busting is being advocated by anyone as a matter of objective fact, and using the word blackmail to refer to the Governor instead of the Dem. legislators seems to ignore which side is trying to use the democratic process and which side is blocking it to try to demand their way.

Those Democrats are using fraud, deception, hateful propaganda, outright lies, and obstruction to try to undermine the democratic process.

Hehehe, you're funny. You think I support the Democrats in this. I don't. I think they're all idiots.

 

[Al68]

Hehehe, you're funny. You think I support the Democrats in this. I don't. I think they're all idiots.

What are you talking about? I said nothing about who I think you support. Did you accidentally reply to the wrong post?

 

[nismaratwork]

Then they should return any money I am paying to their salary for them to do their job. And they did flee and hide. We didn't find out where they went for a couple days after they went missing.

They can't collect paychecks out of state, that started early on.

@Char.Limit & @AlephZero: Agreed.

What do I mean? It is blackmail, but then, that's part of the toolkit as well. In this case, it just happens that Walker is doing a poor job of it, but a hilarious job of political suicide.

 

[Gokul43201]

Then they should return any money I am paying to their salary for them to do their job.

They might just as easily argue that they are doing this to justify their salary. If they had simply stayed put, the Dems would not have had a voice in in the issue, and the bill would have been passed without even listening to Dem amendment proposals or going through any serious debate. Their absconding is therefore the only way they can represent the people that voted them in, which is essentially what their job is. Basically, everyone who is protesting Walker's bill, or opposes the bill in general knows that any protest is possible only because the so-called "fighting 14" have made it possible.

I think some of these 14 - those from the redder districts - will definitely be in trouble, but others will only have gained political capital from this.

 

[Gokul43201]

In this case, it just happens that Walker is doing a poor job of it, but a hilarious job of political suicide.

I think Walker may survive this and serve out at least the rest of his term, without being recalled. He has two things on his side:

1. Time. He has until November before any recall proceedings can begin. That's a lot of time. People have short memories and can't be bothered to vote unless they really need to. If Walker lays low for the rest of the year, after this bill passes, he will probably be fine.

2. Lack of opponents. If a recall election happens, and I think getting the signatures will be the easy part, Walker will likely have to beat Barrett. And Barrett never really excited the Wisconsin Dems in the first place. I think it might take a Feingold to unseat Walker, but I'm calling that a long shot.

 

[nismaratwork]

I think Walker may survive this and serve out at least the rest of his term, without being recalled. He has two things on his side:

1. Time. He has until November before any recall proceedings can begin. That's a lot of time. People have short memories and can't be bothered to vote unless they really need to. If Walker lays low for the rest of the year, after this bill passes, he will probably be fine.

2. Lack of opponents. If a recall election happens, and I think getting the signatures will be the easy part, Walker will likely have to beat Barrett. And Barrett never really excited the Wisconsin Dems in the first place. I think it might take a Feingold to unseat Walker, but I'm calling that a long shot.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by political suicide...

...I mean that he will not be a viable candidate in the future, and he's burned through more than his share of political capital and public good-will already.

I mean... this new $250 per diem fine... What a sad and petty manuever.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

...I mean that he will not be a viable candidate in the future, and he's burned through more than his share of political capital and public good-will already.

After all this who could possibly want to be the governor. I'm amazed anyone really wants to be a politician the first place.

 

[nismaratwork]

After all this who could possibly want to be the governor. I'm amazed anyone really wants to be a politician the first place.

It is sad isn't it?... yet it goes a long way towards explaining the behaviour of politicians. It's an ongoing area of research, but the prevalence of major personality disorders or their traits in politicians is not cheering.

Who wants to be a politician?

1.) Someone who wants raw power over money; proxies for power are not enough.
2.) Idealists, good men and women who promptly leave (Jim Webb).
3.) Ideologues, who are not happy until more people march to their beat.
4.) Sociopaths, perfectly suitied once ensconsed in power to be politicians at every level.
5.) People who want fame and power, and power through fame or notoriety.
6.) People who are not mentally ill, but are deeply controlling.
-subset: people who are afraid
-subset: people who truly believe they know the RIGHT way.
7.) People so deeply in denial of their nature, they seek to deny it in their lives (Haggard, Craigslist Congressman).

That is my view, and an emerging view based on casual papers... nothing causal. It certainly doesn't amount to a brain-trust, or even competance in politics, and it bodes badly because again... people generally do not want such immense fame and responsiblity.

 

[WhoWee]

Honestly, that's not as damning as you seem to think. I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt. "so you can find out what's in it" = "so you can see its effects as they happen." Certainly this in no way supports your contention that no one read the bill.

Details are still emerging: my bold
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/BachmannBlastsHidden105BObamacareTab/2011/03/08/id/388679

"Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., says she is willing to see the government shut down unless a $105 billion appropriation the Obama administration and the Democratic Congress hid in Obamacare is returned and the GOP House leadership will meet Tuesday afternoon to consider its next step. Her comments came on the heels of her making the funding-deception revelation in an exclusive Newsmax interview.

Bachmann said members of Congress didn’t know the money to implement Obamacare was in the healthcare legislation until a Congressional Research Service report came out in February, because they couldn’t read the bill before they voted and it passed.

“This is an enormous sum of money – this was tucked away inside the Obamacare bill,” Bachmann Monday said on Fox News. “People say: ‘Well, what’s wrong with you members of Congress, why didn’t you know it’s there?’ It’s because we didn’t get the bill until literally a couple of hours before we were supposed to vote on it, and it’s 2,900 pages long.

“What they did is they took the bill – this amount of money – split it up and put it in different sections of the bill,” she said. “Nobody knew until February when it [the report] came out. We had an eagle eye from the Heritage Foundation, Ernest Istook, a former [Oklahoma] member of Congress, found this in this report – he wrote a few blog posts. One of my colleagues, [Rep.} Steve King from Iowa, also found out about this, and we’ve been trying to do everything we can to alert people and say: Give the money back!”

Bachmann said she thinks the deception was intentional. "

 

[nismaratwork]

Michelle Bachmann is neither a reliable source, nor is she any brighter than the wood she appears to have been whittled from.

 

[WhoWee]

Michelle Bachmann is neither a reliable source, nor is she any brighter than the wood she appears to have been whittled from.

Michelle Bachmann is a member of the House Intelligence Committee. The source is the Congressional Research Service.

 

[Gokul43201]

Michelle Bachmann is a member of the House Intelligence Committee.

Oh, the irony!

The source is the Congressional Research Service.

I'd rather see that. Do you have a link to the CRS report?

 

[nismaratwork]

Michelle Bachmann is a member of the House Intelligence Committee. The source is the Congressional Research Service.

She's still an idiot, and seems to be ready to run in 2012... could you appeal any more to authority if you tried?


On a more amusing note (Gokul, I think you'll enjoy this).

I call this, "On The Accuracy of WI State Fiscal Estimates As Disseminated By Morons And Deceptive Twits Of Fox News."

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/article/20110305/OSH0101/110304159/Officials-back-off-7-5-mil-protester-cleanup-estimate-now-say-s-350K

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — Wisconsin officials now say the cost to repair damage at the state Capitol could be as low as $350,000.

Department of Administration Secretary Mike Huebsch says the original $7.5 million estimate to repair marble damaged by tape was a "high-end" estimate. An updated report from DOA says a majority of the nearly $350,000 would cover a crew to perform "very limited" restoration on marble as well as landscape restoration.


DOA originally said it would need $7 million to repair damage and between $60,000 and $500,000 just to assess the condition of the building.


Huebsch also says they are concerned whether the number of people in the rotunda could have caused any structural damage or safety issues in the Capitol. Protester numbers inside the Capitol have peaked at around 5,000.

On the "high end"?

Yeah, and maybe they're just a little full of skittles.

 

[WhoWee]

Oh, the irony!

I'd rather see that. Do you have a link to the CRS report?

There's a summary on page 2. Please note the $11 billion for community health centers and the "National Health Service Corps".

http://www.scribd.com/doc/50230455/Crs-Obamacare-Already-Funded-Feb2011

 

[nismaratwork]

How is that hiding... would it not have been a result of the bill had she not been pre-literate?

I'd add... community health centers are something you've actively argued FOR... I'm still unclear as to what the problem is here. You have a report which breaks this down, but that doesn't change the contents of the bill. Presumably appropriations don't spontaneously occur... or am I missing something?

 

[WhoWee]

How is that hiding... would it not have been a result of the bill had she not been pre-literate?

I'd add... community health centers are something you've actively argued FOR... I'm still unclear as to what the problem is here. You have a report which breaks this down, but that doesn't change the contents of the bill. Presumably appropriations don't spontaneously occur... or am I missing something?

We should be in the other thread with this. However, from the National Health Service Corps site:

"Milestones
1970's
1970– Emergency Health Personnel Act was signed into law as Public Law 91-623. These were Federal employees, US Public Health Service Commissioned Corps Officers or civil servants assigned to underserved areas to practice.

1972– The first 20 commissioned officers were assigned, including 14 physicians, four dentists and two nurses. NHSC had placed 181 clinicians in over 100 communities. The Emergency Health Personnel Act Amendments expanded the pool of clinicians available for service by offering scholarships to dentists, allopathic and osteopathic physicians, nurse practitioners, physician assistants and certified nurse midwives.
1979– Field strength had increased from the initial 181 clinicians to 1,826. Budget went from 11.3 million in 1972 to 138 million in 1979.
1980's
Between 1978 and 1981 – close to 6,700 scholarships were awarded.
Between 1981 and 1988 – only 653 scholarships were awarded due to predictions of a physician surplus by 1990. This persuaded Congress to scale back the program.

1982– NHSC began forming partnerships with States to assist in the placement, monitoring and evaluation of NHSC practices.
1987– Loan Repayment program was implemented.
1988– Seven loan repayment contracts awarded
1989– Field strength at 1,491 and budget reduced to $47.8 million.
1990's
1994– NHSC regains its momentum. Budget is $124 million. Awarded 429 new scholarship and 536 new loan repayment contracts.
1999– Field strength at 2,526 and budget at $112.4 million.
2000's
2000– 52% of NHSC clinicians are still serving the underserved in some capacity up to 15 years after completion of the service commitment (Mathmatica Study).
2004– Field strength at 3,943. Budget at $169.9 million.
2009– American Recovery and Reinvestment invests an additional $300 million in the NHSC, which is expected to double field strength by 2010 "

In 2009 the Stimulus allocated $300 Million to DOUBLE their field strength - now this Bill pumps an additional $11 BILLION into the programs? Money into the wind - see where it lands?

 

[nismaratwork]

We should be in the other thread with this. However, from the National Health Service Corps site:

"Milestones
1970's
1970– Emergency Health Personnel Act was signed into law as Public Law 91-623. These were Federal employees, US Public Health Service Commissioned Corps Officers or civil servants assigned to underserved areas to practice.

1972– The first 20 commissioned officers were assigned, including 14 physicians, four dentists and two nurses. NHSC had placed 181 clinicians in over 100 communities. The Emergency Health Personnel Act Amendments expanded the pool of clinicians available for service by offering scholarships to dentists, allopathic and osteopathic physicians, nurse practitioners, physician assistants and certified nurse midwives.
1979– Field strength had increased from the initial 181 clinicians to 1,826. Budget went from 11.3 million in 1972 to 138 million in 1979.
1980's
Between 1978 and 1981 – close to 6,700 scholarships were awarded.
Between 1981 and 1988 – only 653 scholarships were awarded due to predictions of a physician surplus by 1990. This persuaded Congress to scale back the program.

1982– NHSC began forming partnerships with States to assist in the placement, monitoring and evaluation of NHSC practices.
1987– Loan Repayment program was implemented.
1988– Seven loan repayment contracts awarded
1989– Field strength at 1,491 and budget reduced to $47.8 million.
1990's
1994– NHSC regains its momentum. Budget is $124 million. Awarded 429 new scholarship and 536 new loan repayment contracts.
1999– Field strength at 2,526 and budget at $112.4 million.
2000's
2000– 52% of NHSC clinicians are still serving the underserved in some capacity up to 15 years after completion of the service commitment (Mathmatica Study).
2004– Field strength at 3,943. Budget at $169.9 million.
2009– American Recovery and Reinvestment invests an additional $300 million in the NHSC, which is expected to double field strength by 2010 "

In 2009 the Stimulus allocated $300 Million to DOUBLE their field strength - now this Bill pumps an additional $11 BILLION into the programs? Money into the wind - see where it lands?

I truly don't know the answer to that question, but I presume that it's in the bill?

 

[nismaratwork]

The beginning of Walker's end as an effective Governer:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/08/wisconsin.budget.emails/index.html?hpt=T1

(CNN) -- An e-mail exchange released by Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's office on Tuesday has revealed a series of potential Republican concessions to a three-week standoff over a budget bill that would restrict the collective bargaining rights of most public workers.

The e-mails show a discussion between Walker's deputy chief of staff, Eric Schutt, and Democratic state Sens. Tim Cullen and Bob Jauch in a correspondence that reveals offers and counter-offers between two sides who have remained at an impasse since mid-February.

Walker's initial proposal -- which passed the state's assembly on Friday and would exclude police and firefighters -- requires public workers to contribute more to their pension and health care plans, while prohibiting collection of union dues.

It would also restrict the collective bargaining power of public-sector unions to be limited to wages, and would be capped to the rate of inflation. Pay raises beyond the inflation index would require a voter referendum.

The original bill would also restrict contracts and would mandate annual votes for unions to keep their certification.

But in this latest e-mail exchange, dated Sunday, March 6, Walker appears willing to take steps that would curtail the proposal.

According to the e-mail, the changes would:

-- Allow unions to bargain for wages beyond inflation rates, without a mandatory voter referendum.

-- Permit collective bargaining on certain economic issues, including mandatory overtime, performance bonuses, hazardous duty pay, calendar and classroom size, as well as certification or license payment. Unions and public employers would be required to define the parameters of the negotiations in each case.

-- Allow public workers at the University of Wisconsin Hospital and Clinics Authority to keep their collective bargaining rights.

-- Permit public workers to collectively bargain workplace safety issues, while restricting workers from negotiating hours, overtime, sick or family leave, work breaks and vacation.

-- Limit collective bargaining agreements to one or two years.

-- Require unions to register less than one year after the bill is signed into law, and compel their registration every three years to stay active. The original measure would mandate annual certification.

The modifications do not address Walker prohibiting unions from collecting dues, often considered a sticking point in negotiations.

Later Tuesday evening, Democratic lawmakers offered an "alternative adjustment bill" in an open letter to Walker and Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, identifying three areas where the Wisconsin state budget is facing shortfalls: medical assistance, public defender, private bar and the Department of Corrections.

"Recent reports made it clear that Wisconsin is not 'broke,' as you claim," the statement said, referencing Walker's earlier speeches.

The Democratic proposal requires "the same level of contributions for pension and health care that Gov. Walker proposed" and would "maintain provisions to restructure Wisconsin's debt, freeing $165 million to be used to cover shortfalls in the current biennium," according to the statement.
[more]

 

[Proton Soup]

i have a solution. don't do anything. let negotiations break down completely with no funds allocated for education.

education is a right now, so what will happen is this will end up in front of a judge. courts will determine school budgets, salaries and benefits, taxes, etc.

nobody will be happy, and life will go on.

 

[Amp1]

I haven't kept up with the discussion but:Post # 326 Whowee

He announced his candidacy...reduced taxes and reduced spending to Republican audiences around the state.¹
...rolling back the 2009 state tax increases on small businesses, capital gains, and income for top earners²,..
and cutting state employee wages and benefits to help pay for the tax cuts.²

1. Isn't that how he ate up the surplus?
2. And ain't that how he's trying to pay for it, althogh he's going to cut things the voters didn't know he'd cut, in my opinion.
As well your argument lacks consistency; for instance, how many times did "it take longer than recent memory"?Whowee?

 

[nismaratwork]

Son of a goat's supperating... something.

Republicans in the WI state senate stripped the bill of all budgetary elements removing the need for a quorum, and passed the bill restricting unions.

Yeah... it's about balancing the budget my butt. [URL]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/mad/mad0023.gif[/URL]

 

[WhoWee]

I haven't kept up with the discussion but:Post # 326 Whowee

1. Isn't that how he ate up the surplus?
2. And ain't that how he's trying to pay for it, althogh he's going to cut things the voters didn't know he'd cut, in my opinion.
As well your argument lacks consistency; for instance, how many times did "it take longer than recent memory"?Whowee?

Let's see, a candidate that is doing exactly what he said he'd do while running for office - coupled with an issue that could not be resolved by the 2 parties that both oppose the guy who's doing what he promised - after they (Democrats and unions) worked on the issue for 18 months prior to Walker taking office. Also, did you notice the little problem I provided links for regarding the $200 million the outgoing administration tapped that Walker now has to re-pay (that's a $400 million reversal).

 

[nismaratwork]

Let's see, a candidate that is doing exactly what he said he'd do while running for office - coupled with an issue that could not be resolved by the 2 parties that both oppose the guy who's doing what he promised - after they (Democrats and unions) worked on the issue for 18 months prior to Walker taking office. Also, did you notice the little problem I provided links for regarding the $200 million the outgoing administration tapped that Walker now has to re-pay (that's a $400 million reversal).

It appears that the state senate broke some very basic laws about the need to provide notification, and they aren't even trying to justify it. If this is signed into law, you can put money on an injunction the next day, and a recall ASAP.

This is desperation, and not well executed desperation.

 

[nismaratwork]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/09/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Union says Walker has been "lying throughout this entire process"
Collective bargaining limits pass state Senate
Republicans cleared the way by removing finances from the bill
Democrats blast the maneuver as "fraud" and "outrage"

Note, although exempt, Police and Firefighters unions are also protesting.

 

[WhoWee]

It appears that the state senate broke some very basic laws about the need to provide notification, and they aren't even trying to justify it. If this is signed into law, you can put money on an injunction the next day, and a recall ASAP.

This is desperation, and not well executed desperation.

(I was responding to AMP)

 

[nismaratwork]

(I was responding to AMP)

Yeah... I noticed after I posted... sorry... consider it a global thing, and not at you. I have to stop posting when I'm tired... *groan*.

Last time I mixed up two threads and sounded like a lunatic... you know... more than I usually do.

Soon, I'll sound like a warlok with Adonis DNA and Tiger blood!

(oh, and not a bad example of cocaine psychosis)

Now that I have your lazy <BLEEP> attention, world. Sit back and rejoice. For the Malibu Messiah, the Condor of Calabasas, the <BLEEP> warlock of your jealous face sits before you. Undigested hummus trading real estate for this fire dance.

I beg you all to stay glued to this raving wise, Gibson shredding napalm poet before you. Alone and unshackled as the desperate cries of the soon forgotten echo freely in my lair. Directing your gaze to their silly and sad, legless and dying heartbeats.
Beware I told all, yet beware clearly I told no one. Canned slabs of jaundiced gorilla pelts fill the plates of those fools and clowns and naybobs. Oh how they once begged to attend my perfect banquet in the nude, now they just beg for the keys to my gold.

This is textbook, and if I didn't so dearly hate people who hit women, I'd feel terrible for him.

Anyway... I felt the need to offer something to contrast my ravings with the real deal.

 

[CAC1001]

It appears that the state senate broke some very basic laws about the need to provide notification, and they aren't even trying to justify it. If this is signed into law, you can put money on an injunction the next day, and a recall ASAP.

They did justify it, although i don't know the details, but I do know they justified it some way. The claim about laws regarding notification being broken is being done by the Democrats right now.

This is desperation, and not well executed desperation.

IMO, it is precisely the opposite. The Democrats lost this one, even while trying to illegally sabotage the process themselves, so they are going to try every trick they can.

 

[CAC1001]

I think you misunderstand what I mean by political suicide...

...I mean that he will not be a viable candidate in the future, and he's burned through more than his share of political capital and public good-will already.

I mean... this new $250 per diem fine... What a sad and petty manuever.

I think a lot of that will depend on how the budget performs. Mitch Daniels did something very similar as Walker is doing via exectuvie order and took a huge hit in the polls initially, but then recovered when the budget went from a deficit to a surplus.

 

[Gokul43201]

Let's see, a candidate that is doing exactly what he said he'd do while running for office...

I'm not aware that Walker campaigned to clamp down on collective bargaining. Do you have a reference for that?

 

[WhoWee]

I'm not aware that Walker campaigned to clamp down on collective bargaining. Do you have a reference for that?

I didn't make that claim - this is what I responded to:

"Amp1


Amp1 is Offline:
Posts: 106 Re: wisconsin labor protests "it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven't kept up with the discussion but:Post # 326 Whowee

He announced his candidacy...reduced taxes and reduced spending to Republican audiences around the state.1
...rolling back the 2009 state tax increases on small businesses, capital gains, and income for top earners2,..
and cutting state employee wages and benefits to help pay for the tax cuts.2

1. Isn't that how he ate up the surplus?
2. And ain't that how he's trying to pay for it, althogh he's going to cut things the voters didn't know he'd cut, in my opinion.
As well your argument lacks consistency; for instance, how many times did "it take longer than recent memory"?Whowee? "