You guys are gonna think im either stupid or crazy

[Arsonade]

The vacuum is the opposite to your PMM. The vacuum is a machine of perpetual no motion but the mystery is that it can still fluctuate. And this fluctuation is also perpetual.

The vacuum does contain an infinite amount of zero-point energy. If these can be added together then it is the same as a PMM. Right now nobody know how to add all these zero-point energy. This is because energy density as a physical concept cannot be quantified by addition.

Im not sure where this particular convo came from but i do know that hundeds of microscopic particles pop in and out of existence canstantly in vacumes, is that what you meen? and what does this have to do w/ my PMM?

Adam

 

[Antonio Lao]

A force cannot be detected within the vacuum. So it's a no-force situation. On the hand, a PMM, at the least, has to have a constant force forever.

 

[Arsonade]

A force cannot be detected within the vacuum. So it's a no-force situation. On the hand, a PMM, at the least, has to have a constant force forever.

are you trying to tell me that in a vacuum there can be no magnetic force? and if so why in the world is that? magnets don't need air or a certain amount of presure to work

Adam

 

[baffledMatt]

Interesting thread.

Adam, I think you really should go to an open minded professional physicist you trust, make them sign a non-disclosure form (just in case?), and have them take you through why it won't work. If you turn out to be right then good for you and I wish you every success and Nobel prize (at least physics and peace will be yours) in the future. And if you are wrong then hopefully you should really learn something from the experience - not to mention a bucket load of physics.

Just remember that we all learn from our mistakes!

Matt

p.s. if you don't know how to write/obtain a non-disclosure form simply ask the professional physicist as this is the sort of thing they often deal with as part of their job.

 

[Arsonade]

Interesting thread.

Adam, I think you really should go to an open minded professional physicist you trust, make them sign a non-disclosure form (just in case?), and have them take you through why it won't work. If you turn out to be right then good for you and I wish you every success and Nobel prize (at least physics and peace will be yours) in the future. And if you are wrong then hopefully you should really learn something from the experience - not to mention a bucket load of physics.

Just remember that we all learn from our mistakes!

Matt

p.s. if you don't know how to write/obtain a non-disclosure form simply ask the professional physicist as this is the sort of thing they often deal with as part of their job.

Thanks i will, unfortunatly i have yet to meet a physisist i can trust because other than you guys i know no physicists lol. I honestly have looked at this problem at every posible angle and i truly believe that i have it, Now i do actually know someone in the statistics department of physics whom i can most likely trst, but I am not sure he would be the right person to ask, any ideas on this?

Adam

 

[baffledMatt]

Thanks i will, unfortunatly i have yet to meet a physisist i can trust because other than you guys i know no physicists lol

Trusting the physicist is not your biggest concern as a properly written non-disclosure should protect you pretty well. Your main problem will be finding someone willing to take the time to look at the thing and then have the patience to explain to your satisfaction why it won't work. Sounds like your statistics person may be able to help locate someone perhaps?

I honestly have looked at this problem at every posible angle and i truly believe that i have it

Which is why it is so important you find out why you are wrong.

Well, good luck anyway.

Matt

 

[Antonio Lao]

are you trying to tell me that in a vacuum there can be no magnetic force? and if so why in the world is that? magnets don't need air or a certain amount of presure to work

The magnetic field of the vacuum cannot be separated from the electric field. Both appear together as electromagnetic field of the vacuum where both

$$\nabla \cdot E = 0$$

and

$$\nabla \cdot B = 0$$

That is to say that both electric and magnetic field are sourceless. The charge density is zero and the current density is also zero in vacuum. In matter, it's a different story altogether.

 

[baffledMatt]

are you trying to tell me that in a vacuum there can be no magnetic force? and if so why in the world is that? magnets don't need air or a certain amount of presure to work

And to further confound matters you can even have 'EM' effects when there is no E or B field at all! This leads to something called the Aharonov Bohm effect which was predicted in the late 50's and observed in the 80's. Pretty weird stuff.

Matt

 

[Arsonade]

The magnetic field of the vacuum cannot be separated from the electric field. Both appear together as electromagnetic field of the vacuum where both

$$\nabla \cdot E = 0$$

and

$$\nabla \cdot B = 0$$

That is to say that both electric and magnetic field are sourceless. The charge density is zero and the current density is also zero in vacuum. In matter, it's a different story altogether.

"And to further confound matters you can even have 'EM' effects when there is no E or B field at all! This leads to something called the Aharonov Bohm effect which was predicted in the late 50's and observed in the 80's. Pretty weird stuff.

Matt"


im still not completely sure of your points, magnets have worked in vacumes before.

Adam

 

[Arsonade]

Trusting the physicist is not your biggest concern as a properly written non-disclosure should protect you pretty well. Your main problem will be finding someone willing to take the time to look at the thing and then have the patience to explain to your satisfaction why it won't work. Sounds like your statistics person may be able to help locate someone perhaps?



Which is why it is so important you find out why you are wrong.

Well, good luck anyway.

Matt

Ya ok thanks ill do that

Adam

 

[energia]

you could call my girlfriend's mouth a perpetual motion machine

 

[Arsonade]

you could call my girlfriend's mouth a perpetual motion machine

ya but i think only you could harness that energy lolololol

Adam

 

[Antonio Lao]

Without going too far afield, the stars are really PMMs. They are sustained by very strong magnetic field to balance the forces from gravity and radiation.

 

[Arsonade]

Without going too far afield, the stars are really PMMs. They are sustained by very strong magnetic field to balance the forces from gravity and radiation.

lol no theyre not, stars will either burn up or explode, they don't last forever, if you meen the process of stars exploding, then forming nebulas, then forming new stars being perpetual, yeah i guess, but then, isn't the water cycle also pertpetual motion? those are very general descriptions of Perpetual motion.

Adam

 

[berty]

Fully closed system or not?

i know about einstein's theory of relativity and the first 2 laws of thermodynamics, but believe it or not i have made a perpetual motion mechine. at this point, i bet most of you are thinking about closing this message, but i really would like some feedback on your reasoning about my invention

For a perpetual motion machine to work you have to satisfy all the restraints placed on such a machine by the laws of physics, especially entropy. This means that you have to take into account all the factors present in the only fully closed system we know of which is the entire Universe. When all relevant factors are considered, it is discovered that it is never possible to extract more energy from such a machine than is lost.
But is this strictly true .....?

As various respondents have pointed out the Universe has no actual edge. Therefore, as the initial expansion of the Universe was faster than light, there is probably something beyond the "event horizon" of the Universe.

If this is true can the Universe be accurately described as being fully closed?

Also, would it be possible that under this premise entropy may not always lead to complete disorder and that it may, in principle, be possible to a contruct a perpetual motion machine?

 

[Antonio Lao]

Malfunction stars explode because they are sick. The balance of forces cannot be maintained. All machines, artificial (man-made) or natural, are subject to imperfection, defect, internal flaw, and chemical impurities, crystal lattice deformation and many other imperfections of structural configuration. In this sense, even the universe is not perfect. The universe will eventually suffer the consequence of the "heat death" at maximum entropy. Then it will start to contract.

 

[Arsonade]

For a perpetual motion machine to work you have to satisfy all the restraints placed on such a machine by the laws of physics, especially entropy. This means that you have to take into account all the factors present in the only fully closed system we know of which is the entire Universe. When all relevant factors are considered, it is discovered that it is never possible to extract more energy from such a machine than is lost.
But is this strictly true .....?

As various respondents have pointed out the Universe has no actual edge. Therefore, as the initial expansion of the Universe was faster than light, there is probably something beyond the "event horizon" of the Universe.

If this is true can the Universe be accurately described as being fully closed?

Also, would it be possible that under this premise entropy may not always lead to complete disorder and that it may, in principle, be possible to a contruct a perpetual motion machine?

Have you read the rest of this post yet? entropy has come up, yes this is in a closed system, i recognise your logic that there really is no such thing as a closed system, but it only needs to be relitively closed so that air cannot get in and that if aitr does get in, it is imidiatly sucked out. my PMM would not put out as much energy as was put into it in say a minute, but it would keep going, for example, let's say that the energy in the magnets used are 12,000 watts, my PMM would probably put out only 10,000 watts, the point is however, while the 12,000 watts is applied ony once to the magnets, it keeps the flow of 10,000 watts flowing long after the first 12,000 are created, its like I am getting as much energy as i can and then hitting the reset buton, not losing the energy intiially put out.

Adam

P.S. if this confused anyone, i am just saying that it would take a short amount of time to create the same amount of energy that went into making these magnets, but after the amount of energy has been met, it will continue to give off energy, thus creating more energy than put into the magnets.

 

[Arsonade]

Malfunction stars explode because they are sick. The balance of forces cannot be maintained. All machines, artificial (man-made) or natural, are subject to imperfection, defect, internal flaw, and chemical impurities, crystal lattice deformation and many other imperfections of structural configuration. In this sense, even the universe is not perfect. The universe will eventually suffer the consequence of the "heat death" at maximum entropy. Then it will start to contract.

...ok...but what does this have to do with my PMM?

Adam

 

[Alkatran]

So, let me get this straight. You're Perpetual motion machine, which is powered by magnets (a magnetic field requires an electric current?), is given X energy then gives out Y energy/sec.

I can't think of any way to do this. How are you supposed to get the energy out? Wouldn't this mean taking energy from the contraption? Wouldn't this have the opposite effect of giving the contraption energy (slowing it down, instead of speeding it up).

I submit that if it worked the way you said, it wouldn't gain energy due to energy being entered, for the same reason it woudn't lose energy from having energy harnessed from it.

 

[Antonio Lao]

...ok...but what does this have to do with my PMM?

When the universe dies, so will your PMM.

 

[Arsonade]

So, let me get this straight. You're Perpetual motion machine, which is powered by magnets (a magnetic field requires an electric current?), is given X energy then gives out Y energy/sec.

I can't think of any way to do this. How are you supposed to get the energy out? Wouldn't this mean taking energy from the contraption? Wouldn't this have the opposite effect of giving the contraption energy (slowing it down, instead of speeding it up).

I submit that if it worked the way you said, it wouldn't gain energy due to energy being entered, for the same reason it woudn't lose energy from having energy harnessed from it.

no no, you misunderstand me here, these magnets are charged yes but they do not need a continual hookup to stay magnitised, they are not electromagnets, what i was basicly saying was that initialy, the power used to make it would not be over the power given out, but the power given out would last forver so it would become greater in a very short time. as for your ideas of aking out energy, I am afraid youre going to have to take my word, given no friction, this thing would keep accelerating untuill it exploded, with a turbine attached, the right amount of friction would be provided to keep it going at a steady pace.

Adam

 

[Arsonade]

When the universe dies, so will your PMM.

lol well yeah, but i think that we can disregard that, if the univerce ends there won't really be a need for my PMM will there?

Adam

 

[Simon666]

Do Al Qaeda a favor and couple the output to the input, due to an exponential increase in released energy, perhaps you blast the US from the map.

 

[Arsonade]

lololololololololol

Do Al Qaeda a favor and couple the output to the input, due to an exponential increase in released energy, perhaps you blast the US from the map.

lolololololol no seriosly this is the funnyist post I've seen lol, I am a terrorist for making a PMM, that's a new one, but ok seriosly I am assumingthat you are referring to the explosion i mentioned, indeed the full size version without restricions could do serios damage to anything but neither the model version nor the full size would have nearly enough power to destrow the USA or any country for that matter, id say that restrictions could be placed upon the full sized such as very thick walls, ect.and that danger would not be a problem, anything that could go wrong however would have to be attributed to human error, sorry for laughing before but seriosly i was in no way expecting that kind of reaction. if you want my veiws on polotics you'll have to IM me (AdamChess4). secondly there is no input! the imput happens many many miles away somewhere elce where these magnets are manufactured, that's the imput, i buy the Magnets, that's it, it does take a large amount of energy to make these magnets, but like i have said, i will definatly be creating more energy than needed. technically if my company grows big enough (realize I am thinking way far ahead of myself) then yes, the output may be used for the imput of energy into these things, the point is, the imput is a one time, then done thing, the output lasts as long as the mechine stays intact, thus, a Perpetual motion mechine.

Adam

P.S. blasting the US from the map is not exactly on my to do list lol

 

[Simon666]

I was just kidding. ;) You do realize however that is what would/could happen if overunity machines would exist?

 

[Antonio Lao]

...the output to the input, due to an exponential increase in released energy...

The quantum theory has already settled this problem with exponential increase of energy similar to the ultraviolet catastrophe. The result is the quantum theory of radiation in the blackbody experiments done by Planck at the turn of the century.

Nuclear fission does have its uncontrolled chain reaction in the production of neutron and its simultaneous release of energy but what's needed is the critical mass of the fissionable material which have to go into a complex process of preparation and refinement and purification, a laborous and time consuming process.

Nuclear fusion does have its promise of insurmountable energy production. This is based on implosion in contrast to explosion. Many nations are currently doing research in this area of future energy source.

 

[Arsonade]

I was just kidding. ;) You do realize however that is what would/could happen if overunity machines would exist?

ok, yeah i do, i know that the economy would be thrown into a huricane, almost everything centered to energy would be effected drasticly, there would be a lot of people out of wrk because while it would take a large amount of labor to produce one of these, taking care of it would not be a big expence, the only people needed would be monitors to check in case the mechine breaks due to some human error, and technitions on call 24/7 to fix it, that's it. Overall however, the PMM would help everyone, it would be cheeper energy, and truly clean energy.

Adam

 

[baffledMatt]

Well, as sceptical as I am of your 'PMM', I really hope you do make it work because it might just stop all these bloody war-for-oil things I hear so much about.

Matt

 

[farmerTom]

A PPM may not truly exist especially if certain arreys of magnets are present. You would have to take the value of the stored energy into account, but being able to generate more energy than an alternator or generator uses is quite posible. But you'll probably find out that after you factor in all the varibles its not over/anything for free. Call it what you want, I'ld probably be more inclined to call mine an improvement on said existing device.

I do know of 2 machines in existence, both with some bugs. When you seek help, instead of assistance you'll get quotes about the 3rd law of thermodynamics, and any other physical law that was devised by 3 old men with a coal fired steam engine as a test bench. Forget about digital controled, forget about recent tech advances, forget about an original concept, because its easier for most ppl to just say no and quote someone then it is to actually help you.

Do be carefull as to whom and what you are discussing this with, pll like to take things. They also like to keep what they got. With an oilmans economy and a oilman president in the US right now you may meet a little sceptisism.

Ok...

Ussually in an electrical generating device you'll encounter a host of things that offer resistance between your goal and what you started with. Bearings and the air are a real drag, overcoming as much as u can here will help u achive a plus #. Copper loss, no superconducters are available at the moment that'll work at room temperature or above, so with that added we have a resistance in our electrical loop. Heat from resistance of any type also wreaks havoc on a curcuit either it be mechanical or electrical. Heat in an electric curcuit can be devistating, form a sort of inductor, and also make a rather nice resister cause electric conductors can only move so many electrons and if they are bouncing at random like heat there goes that + for your machine.

The key notes:

1)friction from bearings
2)friction from air
3)poor electrical conectors (to much resistance)
4)heat

Some other things that can effect a spinning type machine ar poor 3d balanceing...aka angular momentum. It'll put an extra drag on most bearing types and is had to counter, or balance out.

Anyway if you need a better explanation, or would like to discuss this in a non-obvious way reply. I'm working on a series of optimations for an alternator type machine, its unreal at the amount of things ppl miss when they just except what now is as what will be 4ever, welcome to the 21st century folks.....

 

[farmerTom]

A liitle extra, can't call this a theory though:


I wonder if a magnet is stored energy, or a device that merely channels/aligns energy that is external its self?

Is a super conductor posible with an organic molecule...posiblably a oil dirivative...
would a mutable matrix be better suited for conducting a certain frequency range?

heres Johnny:

http://www.uspto.gov/

 

[Arsonade]

Well, as sceptical as I am of your 'PMM', I really hope you do make it work because it might just stop all these bloody war-for-oil things I hear so much about.

Matt

Thanks matt, to be honest, it may not, Oil may not be used for fuel anymore, but my secondary invention that goes along with my PMM, somthing to levitate the axle whitch I am sure most of you will reallise what it is, but it would not really be able to be aplied to somthing such as a car, oil would probably still be in demand, unfortunatly.

Adam

 

[Arsonade]

A PPM may not truly exist especially if certain arreys of magnets are present. You would have to take the value of the stored energy into account, but being able to generate more energy than an alternator or generator uses is quite posible. But you'll probably find out that after you factor in all the varibles its not over/anything for free. Call it what you want, I'ld probably be more inclined to call mine an improvement on said existing device.

I do know of 2 machines in existence, both with some bugs. When you seek help, instead of assistance you'll get quotes about the 3rd law of thermodynamics, and any other physical law that was devised by 3 old men with a coal fired steam engine as a test bench. Forget about digital controled, forget about recent tech advances, forget about an original concept, because its easier for most ppl to just say no and quote someone then it is to actually help you.

Do be carefull as to whom and what you are discussing this with, pll like to take things. They also like to keep what they got. With an oilmans economy and a oilman president in the US right now you may meet a little sceptisism.

Ok...

Ussually in an electrical generating device you'll encounter a host of things that offer resistance between your goal and what you started with. Bearings and the air are a real drag, overcoming as much as u can here will help u achive a plus #. Copper loss, no superconducters are available at the moment that'll work at room temperature or above, so with that added we have a resistance in our electrical loop. Heat from resistance of any type also wreaks havoc on a curcuit either it be mechanical or electrical. Heat in an electric curcuit can be devistating, form a sort of inductor, and also make a rather nice resister cause electric conductors can only move so many electrons and if they are bouncing at random like heat there goes that + for your machine.

The key notes:

1)friction from bearings
2)friction from air
3)poor electrical conectors (to much resistance)
4)heat

Some other things that can effect a spinning type machine ar poor 3d balanceing...aka angular momentum. It'll put an extra drag on most bearing types and is had to counter, or balance out.

Anyway if you need a better explanation, or would like to discuss this in a non-obvious way reply. I'm working on a series of optimations for an alternator type machine, its unreal at the amount of things ppl miss when they just except what now is as what will be 4ever, welcome to the 21st century folks.....

man you are cool, first of all, i completely understand what you meen, when i first told people that i made a PMM the first thing that was shot at me was the laws of thermodynamics, it didn't matter if the mechine made sense or not, it didn't matter about the physics of it, and i can guarantee you that no one tried to visualise this mechine, and this was with diagrams. The only help that was given to me was to understand the laws of thermodynamics and to comply with them, well i did tudy them and i went back and i proved them wrong, and they just refused to listen. I hate to think that i cannot trust anyone but with somthing of this importance to me i feel that i can't afford to, where i grow up, people have little chance of becoming anything, those who try the hardest loose all childhood and personality and those who give up and accept life as it is wind up even worse. I realized from the look in my science teecher's eyes that he thought this was his lucky break, not mine, luckilly i had shown him no diagrams, and he got preaty mad when i refused, who can i trust? Well that's my take on my PMM's philosophy, now, down to the physics. #1, friction from air, solved that with a vacume, now this may sound obvios and yes i know that there is actually a miniscule amount of friction in a vacuum and that man has never actually created a perfect vacume, but what we have is perfectly suitable. #2, Sorry, mixed that up, just switch this with # 1, ok friction form bearings, I have come up with somthing that i can bet has already been thought up and disproved but honestly, i think with enough calibration it can work, its called a NFS or No Friction Stand (i have a habit of acronyms). The NFS attaches to the spinning axle and basicly levitates the entire contraption. as for #3, electricity would only be implimented in the harnessing of the electrity, i would use the friction of the turbine to keep the PMM from spinning out of controll and basically exploding, again it is not a matter of too much or too little friction, it is a matter of calibration coupled with experimentation that will perfect this mechine. as for #4, the only heat that i can forsee is that of the turbine/genorator/engine/what ever the propper name, this Turbine would actually be contained within the vacume, as you know, heat canot travel without matter to travel through but then again, what about the vacuum of space and the sun, anyway, i doubt that the vacuum will stop the heat, most thermoses use vacumes but they still get warm, no, the vacuum will serve to decrece the heat, this will sustain the genorator. Doubts may arise here, with heat, won't the georator eventually break? not to worry, i have a few more tricks up my sleave, for example, a backup genorator whitch i know, would not constitute as a perpetual motion mechine because it would technically be fueled by genorators, but one has to see here, that the genorator is not actually a part of my PMM, it is the profit, if i were to replace that genorator with anything tht causes friction, i could get the same effect, but i would not be able to harness the electity, it would be a PMM, but it wouldn't be helping anyone. I am not quite sure what you meen by angular momentum, the rotation of the Earth perhaps? that would not be a reall problem with the NFS. The real reason for the sucsess of this PMM is it's versitility, i can change almost any aspect of teh mechine, there are almost unlimited posibilitys and only one of them will work, i have a fealing that it will be easyer than it sounds.

Adam

P.S. I hope i didn't write too much, if this is too big, i may have to take out the quote. As for people acepting things as they are, not seeing the posibilitys, not seeing the vision, how could this be more related to a PMM lol

 

[Arsonade]

A liitle extra, can't call this a theory though:


I wonder if a magnet is stored energy, or a device that merely channels/aligns energy that is external its self?

Is a super conductor posible with an organic molecule...posiblably a oil dirivative...
would a mutable matrix be better suited for conducting a certain frequency range?

heres Johnny:

http://www.uspto.gov/

lol now that went right over my head, this might interest you, www.wondermagnet.com[/url] wither that or it's [url]www.wondermagnets.com[/URL] , not sure

Adam

 

[Antonio Lao]

...wonder if a magnet is stored energy, or a device that merely channels/aligns energy that is external its self?

If there is a force, there is energy associated with the force. Since there is a magnetic force, we can be certain that there is energy of the magnetic field.

But the vacuum is thought by many scientists to have no force, no mass, and yet it is the seat of infinite number of zero-point energy.

 

[Arsonade]

Hey!

OK guys I am not sure if anybody is going to reply to this cause I am not sure if anyone elce is still lookin @ this post, either way, i have a question about magnets that could prove usefull in the making of this mechine, My main question is, is there an alloy or metal that can block a magnetic field? I know there is, i have heard about it in MRIs and CAT scans and my Physics Professer friend mentioned it at some point, but what is it? Any ideas go ahead and reply, if i don't hear back within 5 days though, ill start a new post.

Adam

P.S. This post is really old now lol