Your thoughts on the Lord of the Rings series

[strangerep]

How do we know that Sauron was evil? We actually see very little of him.

Wow, you're really good at spewing crap about LotR. Try reading the tale of Beren & Luthien if you really don't think Sauron was an evil monster.

 

[Hornbein]

Wow, you're really good at spewing crap about LotR. Try reading the tale of Beren & Luthien if you really don't think Sauron was an evil monster.

But how do we know that JRR wasn't corrupted by elvish inducements to smear the populist orc uprising in pursuit of racial justice? There's always risk in relying on a single source.

 

[strangerep]

Shagrat.

I love that name. Shag-rat.

 

[Hornbein]

JRR Tolkien borrowed a lot from real life. The Dark Tower of Barad-dûr is modeled on Borobodur in Indonesia, which he visited. Near to Borobodur is a dramatic Mount Doom style active volcano. The Morguls came from the Mogols aka Mughals, the Islamic conquerers of northern India. As for Sauron. Sargon of Sumer was the first ruler to have a standing army and an empire.

 

[PeterDonis]

how do we know that JRR wasn't corrupted by elvish inducements to smear the populist antiracist orc uprising? There's always risk in relying on a single source.

A full-length exposition of something like this theme is The Last Ringbearer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

 

[Hornbein]

So, elves are not exactly role models for today's trans-gender, fluid-orientation or racial equity issues...

The X-Men were a great role-model for "It's not a choice; it's who I am" that marginalized communities could get behind ... that is, until the movies decided that - "oh yes, there is a cure! Just a little pinprick and you're human!" That was a bad precedent. But I digress...

Doubtless pro-vax propaganda. Thusly are the sacred texts of Lee and Kirby defiled. Is there no escape? :-)

 

[strangerep]

[...] A half-elf who, by choosing to marry him, chose to be human,

This is one thing I'm not clear about. Exactly how/when did Arwen become mortal? Was it gradual, starting when she fell head-over-heels in love with Aragon? Or all at once when they did their first naughty?

Tolkien, of course, was too much of an olde worlde gentleman to spell out that detail.

just as Elros did.

Hmm. Did Elros just "choose it", standalone. Or did he just fall in love with some mortal girl? IIRC, none of Tolien's writings clarify that point.

 

[strangerep]

But how do we know that JRR wasn't corrupted by elvish inducements to smear the populist orc uprising in pursuit of racial justice?

Oh. Is that why there's a sub-theme along those lines in the Rings of Power tv show?

 

[Hornbein]

Oh. Is that why there's a sub-theme along those lines in the Rings of Power tv show?

Orc consumerist power is not to be taken lightly.

 

[PeterDonis]

Exactly how/when did Arwen become mortal?

Based on the ending of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the Appendices, it seems like Arwen in principle could have chosen not to be mortal right up until her death. Aragorn tells her, as he is on his deathbed, that she must either take an elven ship over the sea, or die a mortal death; and she responds that there isn't any ship she could take. So it seems like if there had been an elven ship available (and it's a bit of a mystery why there wouldn't be, since elsewhere in the Appendices it is said that Legolas takes a ship over the sea after Aragorn's passing), she could have chosen not to become mortal.

Did Elros just "choose it", standalone.

Yes. That is made explicit in the Appendices, and in the Silmarillion. This choice was what enabled him to become the first King of Numenor.

 

[strangerep]

Orc consumerist power is not to be taken lightly.

Yes (sigh). Proof: the crowd and participants in State of Origin rugby league here in Oz.

 

[strangerep]

Based on the ending of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the Appendices, it seems like Arwen in principle could have chosen not to be mortal right up until her death. Aragorn tells her, as he is on his deathbed, that she must either take an elven ship over the sea, or die a mortal death; and she responds that there isn't any ship she could take. So it seems like if there had been an elven ship available (and it's a bit of a mystery why there wouldn't be, since elsewhere in the Appendices it is said that Legolas takes a ship over the sea after Aragorn's passing), she could have chosen not to become mortal.

That's not how I interpreted it. I thought Arwen couldn't take an elven ship because she had already become mortal.

If I can remember the quote... Arwen was "not yet weary of her days and thus tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her".

 

[PeterDonis]

If I can remember the quote... Arwen was "not yet weary of her days and thus tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her".

Here's the full passage, starting from Arwen standing by Aragorn's bed:

And for all her wisdom and lineage she could not forbear to plead with him to stay yet for a while. She was not yet weary of her days, and thus she tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her.

"Lady Undomiel," said Aragorn, "the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk. And on the hill of Cerin Amroth when we forsook both the Shadow and the Twilight this doom we accepted. Take counsel with yourself, beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have me wait until I wither and fall from my high seat unmanned and witless. Nay, lady, I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days, and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift. Now, therefore, I will sleep.

"I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory, or else to abide the Doom of Men."

"Nay, dear lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence."

Note that Aragorn speaks of the "uttermost choice" before Arwen after the passage you quoted about Arwen tasting the bitterness of mortality; and her response to him is to say that there are no more ships available.

 

[strangerep]

Note that Aragorn speaks of the "uttermost choice" before Arwen after the passage you quoted about Arwen tasting the bitterness of mortality; and her response to him is to say that there are no more ships available.

I always interpreted the full phrase, i.e., "There is now no ship that would bear me hence..." to mean that no elven shipmaster would consent to bear a mortal to Valinor, not that no elven ships existed.

(I guess she didn't know about the eventual outcome of the Legolas-Gimli bromance...

[It's curious though that Aragorn obviously thought Arwen could potentially "repent".]

 

[Hornbein]

I always interpreted the full phrase, i.e., "There is now no ship that would bear me hence..." to mean that no elven shipmaster would consent to bear a mortal to Valinor, not that no elven ships existed.

(I guess she didn't know about the eventual outcome of the Legolas-Gimli bromance...

[It's curious though that Aragorn obviously thought Arwen could potentially "repent".]

I'm no expert on such things, but didn't those ships bear mortal Frodo?

 

[strangerep]

I'm no expert on such things, but didn't those ships bear mortal Frodo?

Ah, good point -- and Arwen would certainly have known about that.

I guess it comes down to whether the mortal has special dispensation. Tolkien never explains how Manwe (or whoever in Valinor) communicated to Gandalf(?) that it was ok to bring along his deeply wounded little buddies.

 

[PeterDonis]

didn't those ships bear mortal Frodo?

And Bilbo. But they were both Ring-bearers, and that apparently put them in a sort of in-between category. It's not made clear in LotR what is supposed to happen to them after they arrive in Eressea--are they to stay there indefinitely, or only for a limited time, after which they pass on to some other fate?

(It's interesting, btw, that Arwen tells Frodo that he will take her place on an elven ship.)

 

[strangerep]

(It's interesting, btw, that Arwen tells Frodo that he will take her place on an elven ship.)

Yes. I'd forgotten about that. I wonder how Arwen actually transferred her ticket.

 

[strangerep]

It's not made clear in LotR what is supposed to happen to them after they arrive in Eressea--are they to stay there indefinitely, or only for a limited time, after which they pass on to some other fate?

I got the impression that both Bilbo and Frodo would receive healing in Valinor that could not occur in Middle Earth. But presumably they would both remain mortal -- just living out their finite lives more enjoyably than would have been possible in Hobbiton or Rivendell.

 

[Hornbein]

A full-length exposition of something like this theme is The Last Ringbearer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

Just yesterday I wrote, sooner or later everything imaginable will already have been done. What then?

 

[strangerep]

Just yesterday I wrote, sooner or later everything imaginable will already have been done. What then?

They'll start to study theoretical physics, which is surely never-ending.

 

[strangerep]

The Silmarillion was complicated and brutal [...]

Yes. It seems Tolkien was almost incapable of writing a story with a happy ending. He only managed it (grudgingly, temporarily) in The Hobbit.

 

[Bandersnatch]

About that Arwen quote, it has always seemed clear to me that this wasn't a factual complaint about a lack of good ferry service or maybe the selective racism of the ferrymen (ferryelves?) shooing away smelly naturalised humans - but a more metaphorical expression of her love and loyalty.
There are no ships that would take her anymore because she meant it when she made her choices. She had cast her lot with the humans and she is steadfast in her resolve. The ships are for elves, maiars, and select heroic individuals destined for immortal existence in the <totally_not_valhalla> - and she identifies as a mortal human (it's who I am, dad, don't try to change me!). She would not board one because that would make her fickle. Devalue the relationship with Aragorn from worthy of the greatest sacrifice to a summer fling in Middle-earth. On his deathbed Aragorn urges her to forget her vows and save herself - because he loves her so much. She refuses - for the same reason.
It's the greatest love story ever told, gosh darn it.

 

[Hornbein]

About that Arwen quote, it has always seemed clear to me that this wasn't a factual complaint about a lack of good ferry service or maybe the selective racism of the ferrymen (ferryelves?) shooing away smelly naturalised humans - but a more metaphorical expression of her love and loyalty.
There are no ships that would take her anymore because she meant it when she made her choices. She had cast her lot with the humans and she is steadfast in her resolve. The ships are for elves, maiars, and select heroic individuals destined for immortal existence in the <totally_not_valhalla> - and she identifies as a mortal human (it's who I am, dad, don't try to change me!). She would not board one because that would make her fickle. Devalue the relationship with Aragorn from worthy of the greatest sacrifice to a summer fling in Middle-earth. On his deathbed Aragorn urges her to forget her vows and save herself - because he loves her so much. She refuses - for the same reason.
It's the greatest love story ever told, gosh darn it.

I dunno. Why would any such ships come to Middle Earth? It's so over. Presumably if she were to hire a ship of Men it would be magically unable to approach Uttermost Westerness. Either that or it would fall afoul of stringent Numenorean immigration regulations.

 

[Vanadium 50]

ferrymen (ferryelves?)

Faeriemen.

 

[Rive]

About that Arwen quote, it has always seemed clear to me that this wasn't a factual complaint about a lack of good ferry service or maybe the selective racism of the ferrymen (ferryelves?) shooing away smelly naturalised humans

Well, regardless the love story part there is a quote somewhere that after the betrayal of Numenor every road became curved (a planet got established?) and only some chosen are allowed to take the straight path through the west seas by the grace of Valar

 

[Vanadium 50]

Like many books it has good points and bad points, some of which I have mentioned here.

I note that the thread title is "your thoughts" and not "your opportunity to gush on why it's the bestest bestest book ever!"