Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[DevilsAvocado]

He's the father. I don't quite follow, are you saying that the parents had no responsilibility for getting help for their son although they were aware of his problems?

Absolutely not, all I’m saying that earlier in this thread there have been speculations if the whole family is "disturbed". From what the neighbor is saying that seems slightly wrong...


Another question Evo: When they talk about the safe, is it like a "real" safe? Or just a "locked box"? If it is "the real thing", how common is in the U.S. that an unemployed 22 year old has his own safe??

Or could it be the fathers?? They knew, and tried to keep him away from this?? (Just pure speculations, but I’m not the only one in this thread...)

 

[turbo]

I think we all agree that without significant mental evaluation and treatment - he would have eventually hurt someone? I also think we all recognize the campus police, local police and county sheriff's officers are not mental health workers.

No they are not, but each one of them could have called the mental health hot-line to get him evaluated in the wake of his irrational outbursts. Teachers and administrators at the CC could have called the hot-line, as well. Instead they told him to get a voluntary evaluation and a clean bill of health before he could be re-admitted. There are many, many points of failure, here, IMO.

 

[Evo]

Another question Evo: When they talk about the safe, is it like a "real" safe? Or just a "locked box"? If it is "the real thing", how common is in the U.S. that an unemployed 22 year old has his own safe??

Or could it be the fathers?? They knew, and tried to keep him away from this?? (Just pure speculations, but I’m not the only one in this thread...)

How would I know? And what does it matter?

 

[nismaratwork]

All my "Monday Morning Quarterback" solution would have done would be to either force him to make a decision (school or the street) which is fine if person is sane - and (in this case) push him into the "system" faster - probably jail.

It could be argued that if pushed out of the house, he might have done something (else) just as terrible - maybe to his family? It could also be speculated he would have done something equally terrible sooner or after serving time in jail. I think we all agree that without significant mental evaluation and treatment - he would have eventually hurt someone? I also think we all recognize the campus police, local police and county sheriff's officers are not mental health workers.

Yep... it's a sad state of affairs that was set in motion generations ago. It's hard to lay blame in a situation like this, which is why, as you so eloquently pointed out, it's so atrocious to blame this on one person, an ideology, or... anything. This young man is insane, his life is over, his parent's lives are essentially over, a community is DEVASTATED, people are dead... and it WILL happen again.

"Crazy always wins." "Crazy always seems to find a way."

 

[WhoWee]

No they are not, but each one of them could have called the mental health hot-line to get him evaluated in the wake of his irrational outbursts. Teachers and administrators at the CC could have called the hot-line, as well. Instead they told him to get a voluntary evaluation and a clean bill of health before he could be re-admitted. There are many, many points of failure, here, IMO.

I think everyone also now agrees that ANYONE (in this case) could have called the mental health authorities.

However, does anyone know what would have happened next - specifically - what is the process in AZ (or Pima County)? What would the "system" have done if someone had called?

 

[nismaratwork]

I think everyone also now agrees that ANYONE (in this case) could have called the mental health authorities.

However, does anyone know what would have happened next - specifically - what is the process in AZ (or Pima County)? What would the "system" have done if someone had called?

I can guess based on the state of AZ's mental health system and budget... he MIGHT be diagnosed, but he'd NEVER be held given the functional intellect he displayed in court.

edit: To make it clear, it adds a variable of course, and therefore a different shooting on a different day.

 

[DanP]

a community is DEVASTATED, people are dead... and it WILL happen again.

I really don't think that the community of Tucson is so shaken as many seem to believe.

Besides, if you call this "devastating for a community" with capitals, what the hell was Katrina for New Orleans ? That was a something which devastated a community. Calling a shooting incident with 6 victims devastating on the community is a gross exaggeration.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

How would I know?

Okay, I got the picture.

 

[nismaratwork]

I really don't think that the community of Tucson is so shaken as many seem to believe.

Besides, if you call this "devastating for a community" with capitals, what the hell was Katrina for New Orleans ? That was a something which devastated a community. Calling a shooting incident with 6 victims devastating on the community is a gross exaggeration.

Hmmm... good point.

 

[WhoWee]

I can guess based on the state of AZ's mental health system and budget... he MIGHT be diagnosed, but he'd NEVER be held given the functional intellect he displayed in court.

Your response seems reasonable. However, I'd still like to find out what the "system" is actually does in these circumstances - what is the process - how would he have been treated if someone had called? Is the "system" functional - if someone had called?

 

[nismaratwork]

Your response seems reasonable. However, I'd still like to find out what the "system" is actually does in these circumstances - what is the process - how would he have been treated if someone had called? Is the "system" functional - if someone had called?

I honestly have no idea, and I don't have any friends or real colleagues in AZ. I can do some research online, but I think we'd need to hear from someone who knows how it really plays out on the ground before we could know.

Do we have anyone like that on PF?... this place is always full of surprising information and people.

 

[arildno]

I really don't think that the community of Tucson is so shaken as many seem to believe.

Everyone has their own internal drama queen.

That does not mean their (and our) grief is insincere.

But life inexorably moves on, even from horrifying events like this massacre. Usually, it is quite a boring life, and a bit of drama colours your life for a few days (positively or negatively), and then the humdrum (or hectic) everyday existence returns.

 

[Evo]

Your response seems reasonable. However, I'd still like to find out what the "system" is actually does in these circumstances - what is the process - how would he have been treated if someone had called? Is the "system" functional - if someone had called?

Not directed to you Whowee, but to others that brought it up - I wasn't aware that there is a "report a crazy person" hotline. What hotline would this be?

Also, a phone call accusing someone of not acting right is unlikely to get a response. What exactly can authorities do? Is he disturbing the peace? Do they go out because someone tells them someone is weird? That's the problem the school had, he gave people the creeps, he said stupid things about his constitutional rights, and that the school was scamming him. What more could they have done outside of the internal reprimands he was given? He didn't actually threaten harm to anyone. How do you report that someone gives you the impression they might be capable of violence without them actually doing or saying anything?

His parents however could have contacted their doctor or social services and explained his history. That is probably the only thing that would have worked, but even then, unless the person is considered an immediate danger to themselves or others, he would have to volunteer to be evaluated.

 

[nismaratwork]

Not directed to you Whowee, but to others that brought it up - I wasn't aware that there is a "report a crazy person" hotline. What hotline would this be?

Also, a phone call accusing someone of not acting right is unlikely to get a response. What exactly can authorities do? Is he disturbing the peace? Do they go out because someone tells them someone is weird? That's the problem the school had, he gave people the creeps, he said stupid things about his constitutional rights, and that the school was scamming him. What more could they have done outside of the internal reprimands he was given? He didn't actually threaten harm to anyone. How do you report that someone gives you the impression they might be capable of violence without them actually doing or saying anything?

His parents however could have contacted their doctor or social services and explained his history. That is probably the only thing that would have worked, but even then, unless the person is considered an immediate danger to themselves or others, he would have to volunteer to be evaluated.

Errr... somewhere earlier in this thread... I thought you brought it up. I couldn't believe it either, but it's just as open and wacky as your good points make it.

EDIT: WOW... Just released a tape of Loughner taping himself walking around at night, talking to himself. He is... NUUUUUUUUUUUTS.

 

[nismaratwork]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-arizona-shooting-20110115,0,4035752,full.story

Yep, I've talked to people in worse states, but that is BAD.

edit: The above is a link to a video made by Loughner, of him, walking around and... rambling... and associated article.

 

[arildno]

Evo:
Although parents are those in the position toknow, they are also the ones having the strongest motivations to deny problems with their offspring.
Because the parents' love for them.

They are the ones who most eagerly latch onto every "positive" signal, the ones with the most fervent hopes for their children, and the ones most likely to blame outsiders for their childrens' troubles than the children themselves.

It is a very high barrier for parents to admit to themselves that their child has..failed.

We need to keep this in mind.

 

[Evo]

Evo:
Although parents are those in the position to<i>know</i>, they are also the ones having the strongest motivations to <i>deny</i> problems with their offspring.
Because the parents' love for them.

They are the ones who most eagerly latch onto every "positive" signal, the ones with the most fervent hopes for their children, and the ones most likely to blame outsiders for their childrens' troubles than the children themselves.

It is a very high barrier for parents to admit to themselves that their child has..failed.

We need to keep this in mind.

I completely understand reasons why they didn't do anything, unfortunately, they're also the only ones that had a realistic chance of getting him the help he needed.

 

[arildno]

I completely understand reasons why they didn't do anything, unfortunately, they're also the only ones that had a realistic chance of getting him the help he needed.

To that, I fully agree.

And, without, of course,intending it, the parents' self-imposed social isolation deprived them of friends who could initiate the thought processes in themselves that there was something deeply wrong developing within their Jared.

We need each other, in a myriad of ways...

 

[WhoWee]

What exactly can authorities do? Is he disturbing the peace? Do they go out because someone tells them someone is weird? That's the problem the school had, he gave people the creeps, he said stupid things about his constitutional rights, and that the school was scamming him. What more could they have done outside of the internal reprimands he was given? He didn't actually threaten harm to anyone. How do you report that someone gives you the impression they might be capable of violence without them actually doing or saying anything?

This is what I'm wondering - what is the specific process for dealing with complaints? Up until he gunned down 19 people - he really didn't stand out much from the crowd.

People make death threats in courtrooms and in front of witnesses from time to time. If he had made a specific threat that he intended to shoot 19 people someday to a health care worker or even a law enforcement person a few months ago (when dealing with the college) - what would have happened? How long could he be jailed - if at all?

This is a "crack" that needs to be studied - and hopefully addressed.

 

[nismaratwork]

Either his parents were mentally ill, or they had better have a DAMNED good explanation; did you see that video? No wonder his father chased him in a truck, they KNEW that young man was out of his mind, and from the accounts we've all heard, progressively more so.

WhoWee: Watch that video, and tell me a guy who talks like that, even to HIMSELF (never mind posting on youtube!) doesn't stand out.

 

[nismaratwork]

It turns out this is the video that caused the university to throw him out. It should have caused them to call the police...

 

[arildno]

Either his parents were mentally ill, or they had better have a DAMNED good explanation; did you see that video? No wonder his father chased him in a truck, they KNEW that young man was out of his mind, and from the accounts we've all heard, progressively more so.

WhoWee: Watch that video, and tell me a guy who talks like that, even to HIMSELF (never mind posting on youtube!) doesn't stand out.

Parents who desperately want their child to be okay, go to the most irrational lengths to believe what their child tells them personally.

If Jared said something like "I just freaked out over that B I got, the school is overreacting", his parents might have latched onto that, dismissing all the evidence they should have paid attention to.

Crazy people like Jared can seem sane to people he instinctively knows how to push the buttons on.

 

[nismaratwork]

Parents who desperately want their child to be okay, go to the most irrational lengths to believe what their child tells them personally.

If Jared said something like "I just freaked out over that B I got, the school is overreacting", his parents might have latched onto that, dismissing all the evidence they should have paid attention to.

Crazy people like Jared can seem sane to people he instinctively knows how to push the buttons on.

Forget the parents; I'm not sure what the laws are in AZ, but if this video came to the attention of a single psychologist, psychiatrist, or medical doctor, even a social worker... in the state I'm in... you have a heightened legal responsibility to report even for the sake of the person's welfare.

As for his parents... I think you may be overestimating the Loughner's capacity to maintain a semblance of sanity, even at home; he was unable to do so for a single friend, nor his own father in the end.

 

[WhoWee]

Either his parents were mentally ill, or they had better have a DAMNED good explanation; did you see that video? No wonder his father chased him in a truck, they KNEW that young man was out of his mind, and from the accounts we've all heard, progressively more so.

WhoWee: Watch that video, and tell me a guy who talks like that, even to HIMSELF (never mind posting on youtube!) doesn't stand out.

An earlier post indicated this guy was a 9/11 Conspiracy person. I just found 17 youtube tapes on the 9/11 subject that seem crazier than his video.

 

[nismaratwork]

An earlier post indicated this guy was a 9/11 Conspiracy person. I just found 17 youtube tapes on the 9/11 subject that seem crazier than his video.

That's wrong... it's conspiratorial, but it isn't crazy like Loughner... I don't see the rambling tangents that have nothing to do with the subject (even a wacky subject), I don't see the repetitive language... etc.

I think this is part of the problem: all crazy is not the same, or equal, nor is every irrational belief and action the result of insanity.

Loughner is crazy, and he shot those people... he's not crazy BECAUSE he did... he was crazy looooong before, from what I can see.

 

[turbo]

Hot-line.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/10/AR2011011007049.html

 

[nismaratwork]

Wow... How did that school not contact the police?! I doubt they'd forsee the current tragedy, but a reasonable person could foresee him coming back to campus to kill.

 

[WhoWee]

That's wrong... it's conspiratorial, but it isn't crazy like Loughner... I don't see the rambling tangents that have nothing to do with the subject (even a wacky subject), I don't see the repetitive language... etc.

I think this is part of the problem: all crazy is not the same, or equal, nor is every irrational belief and action the result of insanity.

Loughner is crazy, and he shot those people... he's not crazy BECAUSE he did... he was crazy looooong before, from what I can see.

The shooter's tape was also conspiratorial in nature - I still don't think he stands out from the crowd. Even now, looking at his tape, what implies he will do violence - he joked with the teacher about a B.

 

[nismaratwork]

The shooter's tape was also conspiratorial in nature - I still don't think he stands out from the crowd. Even now, looking at his tape, what implies he will do violence - he joked with the teacher about a B.

Yeah... I guess they didn't get the joke (he also says, "I'm pissed off" and this may be more of his inappropriate behavior, since this was apparently the final impetus to boot him and recommend the mental health evaluation. His tape isn't conspiratorial either, it's rambling and full of persecutorial delusion; he never even outlines a coherent conspiracy, just references to themes and "mind control".

Think of it this way, The 9/11 conspiracy IS real... an incredibly wealthy Saudi man named Bin Laden, an MD, and a bunch of other Arab men, with the cooperation of the ruling government of Afghanistan, trained and planned for YEARS... etc. The result: 2 building are gone, the pentagon was damaged, and many people are dead.

Even in that truly grotesque conspiracy film they're not claiming that the towers are there, but we can't see it because of government mind control, then go off on a tangent about nothing. Their conspiratorial thinking is run amok and misdirected, but it's one of, if not the, biggest conspiracies in modern time.

 

[Evo]

Hot-line.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/10/AR2011011007049.html

No one would consider that as a "hotline" to report someone for irrational behavior, nor do they advertise a "hotline" for such purposes. It's a non-profit that receives government funds for mental health, I doubt most people would have even heard of them, much less think of calling them.

 

[Evo]

The shooter's tape was also conspiratorial in nature - I still don't think he stands out from the crowd. Even now, looking at his tape, what implies he will do violence - he joked with the teacher about a B.

If anything, without knowing about the shooting, would anyone think anything other than some dumb/stoned kid?

 

[nismaratwork]

If anything, without knowing about the shooting, would anyone think anything other than some dumb/stoned kid?

Yeah, I would, and anyone with a hint of psychological training would, and the school DID.

 

[arildno]

As for his parents... I think you may be overestimating the Loughner's capacity to maintain a semblance of sanity, even at home; he was unable to do so for a single friend, nor his own father in the end.

Possibly. On the other hand, remember who he seemed to be, and his background. Fro what I've undestood, both Jareds Mom and Dad are working-class.
Do they have any academic schooling, in the way Jared seemed to have the potential of?
His aunt has said his parents doted on him. In his mid.teens, they spent thousands of dollars on his not inconsiderable artistic talents as a saxophone player.

Personally, I think they became totally convinced that their bright kid would tackle and master "everything", and that they downplayed his oddness as expressions of hidden genius (whatever his actual grades). What did they know of the subtle nuances grammar has on the meaning of words? I'm sure Jared had a few staple insights concerning this that would strike them as ingenious, if rather incomprehensible.

He was their special kid, their son, and nothing deeply wrong could possibly be in his nature.

Sadly, their own worries, as they mounted, could not be communicated and understood as an alarming pattern because their own reclusiveness debarred them from outside perspectives.
Without such outside perspectives, they did not find themselves able to see how very wrong the state was that their son was in.

 

[WhoWee]

If anything, without knowing about the shooting, would anyone think anything other than some dumb/stoned kid?

I'm with you Evo. I've witnessed worse behavior on city streets than this tape indicates. I (personally) would not have called the police after watching the video.

 

[Evo]

Yeah, I would, and anyone with a hint of psychological training would, and the school DID.

What about this would make you think it was a "report a crazy person" hotline'?

CPSA, in keeping with the community-based roots of its founders, believes in the importance of community involvement and community reinvestment. CPSA is dedicated to providing high-quality behavioral health services to residents of Southern Arizona and to a philosophy of care that is member and family driven, goal-focused and recovery oriented. The Mission Statement and Statement of Values and Guiding principles have been developed within this philosophical context.

Mission Statement
The mission of the Community Partnership of Southern Arizona is to ensure individuals and families receive accessible, high-quality behavioral health services that are member and family driven, recovery oriented, respectful of cultural differences and foster hope and self-determination.

http://w3.cpsa-rbha.org/static/index.cfm?contentID=2342

Sure they could have picked up the phonebook and called any mental health agency, but read the reasons I stated previously.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3084624&postcount=573