Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

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In summary: I then went in the front door and around customer service to the copy machine. I was in the middle of copying when I heard a series of loud pops. I thought to myself: Why are people setting off firecrackers, don't they know that they could get in trouble with a member of congress so near? Then a couple came in covered with blood and other people rushed by to help. I continued to copy until I thought that this is stupid, I should either help or get out of the way. I walked over to where the shooting took place. There were people lying around I assume dead and injured. It was just like a scene from the movies. Blood everywhere. There
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  • #212
I think the elephant in the US political room, is that popular political elements in this country are, essentially, either calling for violent revolution cryptically, or at least preaching the logical justification for it, indirectly or not.

Here is an example. Say person (A) starts a rumor that person (B) killed person (C)'s father and is now plotting to kill person (C), but also tells person (B) that violence is not the solution. Person (C) is paranoid and in the end convinced person (A) is right. Person (C) then kills person (B). Who here is to blame? Does it depend on if person (C) is telling the truth?

Now take conspiracy theory shows like Glenn Beck, who has his followers convinced that there is in motion an evil liberal agenda to destroy the nation and have us all enslaved. Certainly if such a thing were true, it would be cause for concern, and violent revolution would be considered under this premise heroic. Is it true? How many people are out there who are convinced it is? Is this a recipe for disaster? I think so.

But then such a person will go on to denounce violence as a means, and so forth. Should he also admit he cooked up most of the B.S. as part of a political tactic, and that it is chalk full of selective information, exaggerations, distortions, flimsy connections, and unsubstantiated implied links.

It's like in school, when people instigate fights using rumors, like he called your momma this and that etc. this is where we are at in politics. But what happens when people get hurt?
 
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  • #213
jreelawg said:
But what happens when people get hurt?

Nothing.
 
  • #214
It's a very unfortunate news. I hope she recovers soon to continue her job.

US congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, who was shot in the head by a gunman in Arizona, is responding well to treatment and can follow simple commands after surgery, doctors say.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12147588
 
  • #215
The police have now found and cleared the "person of interest" that they were looking for, whose photo from a surveillance camera had been published this morning. He turned out to be the guy who happened to be driving the cab that Loughner took to the shooting site.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/09/arizona.shooting.investigation/
 
  • #216
Evo said:
The police chief said that he had plenty of bullets left in the magazine, where did you read that he was re-loading?

In the latest press release the police chief said that a woman grabbed his magazine from his gun while he was reloading.
 
  • #217
drankin said:
In the latest press release the police chief said that a woman grabbed his magazine from his gun while he was reloading.

It was the sheriff that made the statements about the woman. Although she had been shot she grabbed the second magazine. The assailant finally did get another high capacity clip in but it had a defective spring and the weapon would not fire.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=13811346
 
  • #218
EnumaElish said:
Already there are calls for/expectation of airport-like security for access to U.S. politicians in the future:

"In the case of the shooting, the by-product of our system is that the people have for the most part unobstructed access to their politicians."

http://dailybail.com/home/ron-paul-on-the-colbert-report-debating-the-gold-standard-wh.html

I'll quote a former head of the FBI, and a former Sgt. At Arms: "We don't have the resources to protect 500 or more..."

Oh, and don't forget, if Mr. Nut can't kill the member of congress, it wouldn't be a reach for them to attack family, staffers, and friends. We're not talking about one guy with a gun = protection for = member of congress... security is INVOLVED, and layered. The people we have with that training tend either to be in the private sector, or doing more important things than guarding elected officials not in a leadership role. Remember also that security depends on the compliance of the principle, and members of congress are PUBLIC. So, now Mr. Nut can't walk up with his glock and kill people... so he uses a long rifle from 300+ metres... and with training (of many varieties) or practice hunting, a shot with a well scoped rifle WITHIN 400 metres is essentially point and click.
@jreelawg: Drankin is right: see O'Reilly and "Killer Tiller". Unless you're inciting an ACTUAL riot on tape, it's hard to show ANY conspiracy without a clear evidenciary trail AND intent. That doesn't mean that people who make a living through the manufacture and distribution of fear (like that a******e Wakefield) are rarely punished if they keep the forms of proper behavior.
 
  • #219
edward said:
It was the sheriff that made the statements about the woman. Although she had been shot she grabbed the second magazine. The assailant finally did get another high capacity clip in but it had a defective spring and the weapon would not fire.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=13811346

... at which point 2 bystanders tackled him and held him down. Oh yes, and the woman in question has already been shot when she attacked the shooter.

I should add that we're all just lucky this kid didn't think to just snag a few more guns, fire, drop, repeat. It's a saving grace that the people who commit these acts are generally poor planners when it comes to their "visions".

Evo: NPR and other sources, sorry about the delay, I had an emergency situation with a patient. In addition I'm familiar with the firearm, and the numbers of those shot. 20 out of 33 bullets hit someone... I wonder if people realize how far above the average mark that is?
 
  • #220
nismaratwork said:
... at which point 2 bystanders tackled him and held him down. Oh yes, and the woman in question has already been shot when she attacked the shooter.

I should add that we're all just lucky this kid didn't think to just snag a few more guns, fire, drop, repeat. It's a saving grace that the people who commit these acts are generally poor planners when it comes to their "visions".

Evo: NPR and other sources, sorry about the delay, I had an emergency situation with a patient. In addition I'm familiar with the firearm, and the numbers of those shot. 20 out of 33 bullets hit someone... I wonder if people realize how far above the average mark that is?

I think that's only above average if he was aiming for each target he hit. Some of what would have been a "miss" almost certainly became a "hit" on somebody else due to the fact there was a crowd.
 
  • #221
For those of you who find Palin's "target pracice" map so offensive, please take a look at the following "Heartland Strategy" article map from the Democratic Leadership Committe.

This is from 2004.
Here, there is talk of getting behind "Enemy Lines", and nice bullseyes are painted on a number of states:
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171

Face it:
Military simile is a part of American political rhetoric. It is not something Palin made up, but is common throughout your political spectrum.

I am disgusted by those of you who do not own up to that, and hypocritically say you are "offended" by Palin's map.

You are not. You are merely gleeful at yet another opportunity to demonize somebody you don't like.
 
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  • #222
arildno said:
For those of you who find Palin's "target pracice" map so offensive, please take a look at the following "Heartland Strategy" article map from the Democratic Leadership Committe.

This is from 2004.
Here, there is talk of getting behind "Enemy Lines", and nice bullseyes are painted on a number of states:
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171

Face it:
Military simile is a part of American political rhetoric. It is not something Palin made up, but is common throughout your political spectrum.

I am disgusted by those of you who do not own up to that, and hypocritically say you are "offended" by Palin's map.

You are not. You are merely gleeful at yet another opportunity to demonize somebody you don't like.
arildno, what has the site got to do with anything? Are you confusing this group with the mainstream Democratic party?
 
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  • #223
arildno, I AM truly sorry if I’ve offended you. It was not my intention. I will not get into this discussion again, because your arguments are the same, and it will still not work in Norway where you live.

Cheers Mate! :wink:
 
  • #224
Evo said:
arildno, what has the site got to do with anything? Are you confusing this group with the mainstream Democratic party?
Well, isn't it?
It looks like a Democratically affiliated think tank to me.
 
  • #225
According to Wikipedia, DLC members includes Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman, and President Obama, a non-DLC has "surrounded himself with DLC members".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council
So, YES, Evo, I will regard the DLC think tank as a mainstream thread of the Democratic Party, among several other threads, I'm sure.
 
  • #226
nismaratwork said:
DA: It's scary to be here sometimes, but we're not pirating ships or arming crazed dictators (lately), so I'd be more concerned about the Korean Peninsula, 3 upcoming Chinese carriers, Iran and what Israel will do, Darfur...

Remember, random violence is rare compared to being harmed in ANY country by your nearest and dearest, so this event can't be emblematic of any country's behaviour.

Oh no... now I see where this is going... and it’s probably my fault...

I know you guys get a lot of sh*t from all places. It was NOT my intention to BLAME you or USA.

Kim Jong (fu*king) ill is a criminal murderer and so are many other "Sheik Yerbouti" out there. USA are the last superpower and are acting "World Police", for good and bad, and if it wasn’t for you guys we would have Adolf III as Führer of Europe right now.

We care (about the small people;) and the last thing we wish is that there will be a religious fanatic "Kim-Jong-Nuts" as president of USA. That would be the last mayhem on this planet.Let’s get the 'facts' clear:
  • Sarah Palin was NOT involved in the Tucson shooting.
  • We do NOT know what "motivated/trigged" the shooter Jared Lee Loughner.
  • Jared Lee Loughner is without doubts totally NUTS.
  • Gabrielle Giffords experienced several threats before the attack.
  • Sarah Palin is LOUD and not the brightest person on earth.
  • Glenn Beck is LOUDER and among the dumbest persons on earth.
  • Both can produce an 'effect' on a nutcase with ONE BRAIN CELL.
Looking for 'clues' in Jared Lee Loughner’s 'statements', is like looking for Hamlet in a pile of dog sh*t:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner"
  • "My favorite activity is conscience dreaming."
  • "Firstly, the current government officials are in power for their currency, but I'm informing you for your new currency".
  • "My hope is for you to be literate. If you're literate in English grammar then you comprehend English grammar. The majority of people who reside in District 8 are illiterate. Hilarious."
  • "If I have my civil rights then this message wouldn't have happen [sic]."
  • "In conclusion, my ambition is for informing literate dreamers about a new currency... in a few days, you'll know I'm conscience dreaming."
 
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  • #227
arildno said:
Well, isn't it?
It looks like a Democratically affiliated think tank to me.

Should I assume that your parents were nazis because of SS Freiwilligen Nordland? Of course not, and you shouldn't assume that because their ideology is left, or democrat, that it's affiliated. Guilt by association is an ugly thing.

jack21222: I'm not saying the little psychopath was the second coming of Carlos Hathcock, just that in a CQ engagement with a 9mm handgun, you don't accidentally get that number of wounded. His hit:miss ratio isn't something for a marksman to take pride in, just more effective than the usual. Even spraying and praying takes some control over the firearm.
 
  • #228
Okay, nismara!

I assume neither DLC members Hillary Clinton or Loe Lieberman have anything to do with mainstream Democratic thought, do they?
 
  • #229
rhody said:
I promised to bow out of this, but I just http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47307.html" and couldn't resist.


Seems this young intern saved her life, way to go, way to go...

Rhody...

I saw an interview with this fellow, while active on her campaign, he's only been on the job for five days. It sounds as though his actions really did save her life.
 
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  • #230
DevilsAvocado said:
Oh no... now I see where this is going... and it’s probably my fault...

I know you guys get a lot of sh*t from all places. It was NOT my intention to BLAME you or USA.

Kim Jong (fu*king) ill is a criminal murderer and so are many other "Sheik Yerbouti" out there. USA are the last superpower and are acting "World Police", for good and bad, and if it wasn’t for you guys we would have Adolf III as Führer of Europe right now.

We care (about the small people;) and the last thing we wish is that there will be a religious fanatic "Kim-Jong-Nuts" as president of USA. That would be the last mayhem on this planet.Let’s get the 'facts' clear:
  • Sarah Palin was NOT involved in the Tucson shooting.
  • We do NOT know what "motivated/trigged" the shooter Jared Lee Loughner.
  • Jared Lee Loughner is without doubts totally NUTS.
  • Gabrielle Giffords experienced several threats before the attack.
  • Sarah Palin is LOUD and not the brightest person on earth.
  • Glenn Beck is LOUDER and among the dumbest persons on earth.
  • Both can produce an 'effect' on a nutcase with ONE BRAIN CELL.
Looking for 'clues' in Jared Lee Loughner’s 'statements', is like looking for Hamlet in a pile of dog sh*t:

Agreed in all matters, but one: It's not the content of what Loughner says... that's just his own flavor of delusion, but note the patterns of repetition and the 'self-talk'. Note the grandiosity and sense of isolation (no literate people, that kind of thing), and then note the disorganized nature of his ramblings. These aren't signs of his motive, but signs of a cognitive distortion of a particular brand, and other disturbances. Much as the Rorschach Inkblots are useful in the same way, but are often mis-'sold' as some kind of window into the psyche.

What his writing tells us is the domain of possible chemically (drugs) or endogenously produced delusion, and long-term divorce from reality. What he says about gold, or grammar just tells us that his delusions centered on revenge against perceived wrongs, his own 'superiority', the concept that he has special insight, and paranoid delusions of external control.
 
  • #231
WhoWee said:
I saw an interview with this fellow, while active on her campaign, he's only been on the job for five days. It sounds as though his actions really did save her life.

From the description of the wound, he almost certainly saved her from asphyxiating on her own blood. For all that only one thing went wrong, a lot of people did RIGHT, even exceptionally in their roles and as on-the-spot heroes.

I can't express how unusual it is for someone with a wound of this severity (complete transaction of a hemisphere) to be responsive to basic commands that very night! Tough lady.
 
  • #232
nismaratwork said:
It's not the content of what Loughner says...
Okay, buy that... sort of... ;)
 
  • #233
arildno said:
Okay, nismara!

I assume neither DLC members Hillary Clinton or Loe Lieberman have anything to do with mainstream Democratic thought, do they?

Lieberman certainly doesn't, but Hillary Clinton does... still, that's not saying this is affiliated. Being a member of an organization doesn't mean that organization therefore is a part of, or affiliated with the organizations of its members.
 
  • #234
DevilsAvocado said:
Okay, buy that... sort of... ;)

The analysis of writing is a fundamental part of many neurological and psychological evaluations... it's interesting stuff. The only issue is that again, people tend to either dismiss the value entirely, or place deep meaning on the content of the delusion. It's the EXISTENCE of the distortion, and the nature of its structure and type that's interesting, not specific details. After all, they are as you said, the ramblings of a madman.

edit: Just to add some support to an earlier post of yours: When you mention that media figures can have that effect on a minimally equipped organism, I'd just say... yep. Even then, what really seemed to set this kid off was his expulsion from school (and I suspect, the onset of frank symptoms of Schizophrenia), and rage. I'm a little surprised it wasn't his old college that he shot up; yet another deviation from what tends to be a predictable kind of crazy.
 
  • #235
nismaratwork said:
Lieberman certainly doesn't, but Hillary Clinton does... still, that's not saying this is affiliated. Being a member of an organization doesn't mean that organization therefore is a part of, or affiliated with the organizations of its members.

What are you blathering about?

IS DLC some sort of sinister extremist organization?
No, it is not.
DLC is related to the "New Democrats"-faction, a centrist block within the Democratic Party.It is a perfectly standard sub-grouping within the Democratic Party.Is their "Behind Enemy Lines" map dumb or offensive?

No, it is not.The only relevant difference here is how hypocritical people denounce Palin for making a similar "Target Practice map", that members of their own flock has done previously.

It is the denunciation of Palin on this issue that is wrong-headed.

Just because that woman is an anti-evolutionist nutcase does NOT mean that particular target map was anything "dreadful" or out of the ordinary line of political strategy rhetoric.

It was not, and Palin-haters ought to admit that.
 
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  • #236
nismaratwork said:
The analysis of writing is a fundamental part of many neurological and psychological evaluations... it's interesting stuff.

Could be, I don’t know... but without talking to the guy... :bugeye:
 
  • #237
mheslep said:
That's the September 2009 Tea Party march on the Capitol; Palin was not there, did not speak, and has no official connection with the Tea Party.

Yes, wrong photo. But ...

I may be ignorant, but I’m not deranged, and if you are trying to tell me that Palin, Glenn & The Tea Party has nothing whatsoever in common – you might as well try to convince me Tiger Woods' ex-wife has never seen golf balls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CY5aFvRe2E
 
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  • #238
finger pointing and monday morning quarterbacking isn't helpful here. crazy people do crazy things for crazy reasons. this has happened before, it has happened again, and will likely happen yet again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinckley,_Jr.
 
  • #239
arildno said:
Well, isn't it?
It looks like a Democratically affiliated think tank to me.
The it's an offshoot, I guess you could say.
 
  • #240
arildno said:
What are you blathering about?

IS DLC some sort of extremist organization?
No, it is not.

It is a perfectly standard sub-grouping within the Democratic Party.

Is their "Behind Enemy Lines" map dumb or offensive?

No, it is not.


The only relevant difference here is how hypocritical people denounce Palin from making a similar "Target Practice map", that members of their own flock has done previously.

It is the denunciation of Palin on this issue that is wrong-headed.

Just because that woman is an anti-evolutionist nutcase does NOT mean that particular target map was anything "dreadful" or out of the ordinary line of political strategy rhetoric.

It was not, and Palin-haters ought to admit that.

Well, I don't hate Palin, but I think you'd count me as a "Palin Hater", and I think she has nothing to do with this. I loathe Glenn Beck, but he didn't do this either. You can talk in generalities, but you're talking to me and I don't have those views you describe.

So, we know this guy was insane, and we know he fits the pattern of someone is also violent. It's reasonable to assume that there was a trigger in his life for this, but I'd guess it was something that occurred in his life; moving back home, school, women onset of schizophrenia...etc. I think what Americans are finding so disturbing is that Loughner has the appearance of being a kind of violent incarnation of this poisonous political climate.

Let me make this easy: Look up what Giffords had to say about the map... it's NOT usual. Don't mistake the Bush W., and post period with the NORM of American politics. You seem very confident about an assessment that I can only describe as fatally flawed.
 
  • #241
arildno said:
According to Wikipedia, DLC members includes Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman, and President Obama, a non-DLC has "surrounded himself with DLC members".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council
So, YES, Evo, I will regard the DLC think tank as a ainstream thread of the Democratic Party, among several other threads, I'm sure.
Can you dismember your rhetoric of US politics? If not, it is a bit disturbing to handle a Scandinavian-based diatribe with no pesronal motivation. Catch a clue here.
 
  • #242
Evo said:
The it's an offshoot, I guess you could say.
From what I know, the Tea Party is a rather extremist off-shoot of the Republican Party, that many Republicans are embarassed by.

DLC, however, is a pretty influential non-extremist sub-group in the Democratic Party that I do not think any Democrats should be ashamed of being politically affiliated with.

Nor with their "Target Strategy Map" with bullseyes painted on Republican targets.
 
  • #243
Proton Soup said:
finger pointing and monday morning quarterbacking isn't helpful here. crazy people do crazy things for crazy reasons. this has happened before, it has happened again, and will likely happen yet again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinckley,_Jr.

Another great argument why the pathology is more important than what the pathological person has to say. It's HOW they say it...

Besides, why kill Giffords of all people if he was truly politically motivated? Crazy with a capital SCREWY.
 
  • #245
nismaratwork said:
Well, I don't hate Palin, but I think you'd count me as a "Palin Hater", and I think she has nothing to do with this. I loathe Glenn Beck, but he didn't do this either. You can talk in generalities, but you're talking to me and I don't have those views you describe.

So, we know this guy was insane, and we know he fits the pattern of someone is also violent. It's reasonable to assume that there was a trigger in his life for this, but I'd guess it was something that occurred in his life; moving back home, school, women onset of schizophrenia...etc. I think what Americans are finding so disturbing is that Loughner has the appearance of being a kind of violent incarnation of this poisonous political climate.

Let me make this easy: Look up what Giffords had to say about the map... it's NOT usual. Don't mistake the Bush W., and post period with the NORM of American politics. You seem very confident about an assessment that I can only describe as fatally flawed.
YOU are the one talking in generalities, not me.

I'm speaking of that target map from DLC.
Is that offensive to you? It shouldn't be.
Nor should the one from Palin be.
 

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