Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[|Fred]

Depending of the translation he allegedly said that the plant would be decommissioned.. but I guess you never miss an occasion to jump on guns with preconceives opinions based shady data..

Meanwhile I manage to find some other photos from plant released today by A.P.
3 attached and 6 inlined

and some more

 

[wasteinc]

fred , even decommissioned would be the understatement of the decade

We have a huge accident in progress,
we have possible fission continuing (we still can't make out how the "mistake" on the I-134 and the other isotopes came to be)
we have radioactivity around the plant that reaches Chernobylian proportion even though they are trying to hide it ( >1000mSv/h ?)
we have at least one FSP damaged by a falling crane in reactor 3 (hats off to our perceptive radiologist)

and the only thing saving the japanese inland until now is the wind (as the austrian meteorological department reports every day).

I understand it is important to focus on the physics of this event in this forum, but I sometimes tend to think that some people here are more focused than TEPCO is the last weeks. (their "ill" chairman to begin with)

 

[artax]

Excellent photographs Fred, shame the res. isn't higher but still there's a lot to see!
I'm sure Tcups will be scrutinising these like I will when I get some time!

 

[TCups]

Depending of the translation he allegedly said that the plant would be decommissioned.. but I guess you never miss an occasion to jump on guns with preconceives opinions based shady data..

Meanwhile I manage to find some other photos from plant released today by A.P.
3 attached and 6 inlined

and some more

Even the strength of the blast at Unit 3 did not blow out every single wall panel of the floor below the top (reactor access) floor. And the top floor (the top two tiers of columns) is where hydrogen was most likely to accumulate. Not only did the explosion at unit 4 take out every panel on the east and west side of the building of the floor below the reactor access floor (ie, at the same level as the SFP), it also appears to have taken out one south side panel a floor below the SFP (ie, two floors below the reactor access floor) and also, it did much less damage to the roof beam superstructure than did the blast at Unit 3, and it left the north wall of the top floor partially collapsed inward, and it left at least two panels on the east and west sides of the top floor intact. Compare, carefully, the east, west, and south elevation views.

http://nimg.sulekha.com/business/original700/aerial-2011-3-30-1-11-12.jpg

http://nimg.sulekha.com/business/original700/aerial-2011-3-30-0-20-7.jpg

http://nimg.sulekha.com/business/original700/japan-earthquake-2011-3-30-0-50-12.jpg

Great new photos. Lots to ponder.

 

[artax]

So it looks like the blast at unit 4 was much lower down in the building than that of unit three with unit 1 being initiated in the roofspace?
Very revealing images these.
Anyone know if there's video footage of the unit 4 blast?
a few more images here,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...huge-amounts-claims-battle-lost.html?ITO=1490

and finally they're using drones, so original images will be far superior.
It looks like there are a lot of manhole covers open, either blown off during the explosion or possibly removed after for measurements of radiation.
But as they are only around unit 4 I suspect blown off during explosion.

 

[timeasterday]

It seems like something is blurred out on just about every photo of reactor 3. Weird - must be just steam at an odd angle.

 

[curious11]

It seems like something is blurred out on just about every photo of reactor 3. Weird - must be just steam at an odd angle.

Reminds me of the blur effect in the Ringu films!

Well spotted, it's a strange looking effect indeed. Unlikely to be steam as it's in the same form in all views shot at different times...

Does it line up with the hotspot in the IR image released previously?

/edit on quick inspection it does indeed line up with the large white spot in the IR. One wonders how far above the temp at white that area actually is.

 

[|Fred]

I forgot to give the full mandatoty credit
In this March 24, 2011 aerial photo taken by a small unmanned drone and released by AIR PHOTO SERVICE, Unit 4, left, and Unit 3 of the crippled Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant are seen in Okumamachi, Fukushima prefecture, northern Japan. (AP Photo/AIR PHOTO SERVICE)

Here is the picture of the drone

As previously mentioned Japanese officials do have picture taken with a military class drone with resolution allowing to read plates on the car..

Ps: they waited 6 days to release the picture as far as I understand

 

[jlduh]

Well, when you say that Tepco chairman is also talking to shareholders, maybe you are right, but again as a citizen, this way of saying things in its first intervention since the very beginning, and just before apologizing by this typical japanese move of inclination of the body in front of the press, creates a strange feeling in my body. Maybe this inclination is for the shareholders in fact, who knows?

And even if this is for the shareholders AND the victims, i find problematic to put on the same level at the same time the shareholders and the victims. If he wants to give a message to shareholders, he can use private means, send mails or letters, pay some adds in the relevant newspaper, or give an economic press conference. The mix up of these things of various importance is kind of strange to me as i said.

 

[artax]

Reminds me of the blur effect in the Ringu films!

Well spotted, it's a strange looking effect indeed. Unlikely to be steam as it's in the same form in all views shot at different times...

Does it line up with the hotspot in the IR image released previously?

/edit on quick inspection it does indeed line up with the large white spot in the IR. One wonders how far above the temp at white that area actually is.

If it's where the hole is to the south of centre in the roof of the building I'm pretty sure it's where the projectile like lump of heavy (concrete) blew upwards in the video and just pierced through the steel girders. this is where some of the steam is emanating.
Hope we can get full res images!
In fact looking at the 2 trails of debris on the roof of the turbine building (one with hole in it) the two lines of debris are almost parallel, suggesting that the explosion came from two sources, or it had two escape routes.
After re-examining... they do converge (Using the white lines at the very edge of turbine building) but to the north side of the building, not where the blurred area is, and the hole.

 

[AntonL]

It seems like something is blurred out on just about every photo of reactor 3. Weird - must be just steam at an odd angle.

steam over water of SFP

 

[AntonL]

So they were moving fuel in/out of reactor building 4

Check the truck in the tunnel

 

[jensjakob]

This is a very nice picture, since it show the number of panels above the work-floor (and the SFP surface).

Now back to the other analysis of the SPF and blowout.

 

[Astronuc]

Depending of the translation he allegedly said that the plant would be decommissioned.. but I guess you never miss an occasion to jump on guns with preconceives opinions based shady data..

Meanwhile I manage to find some other photos from plant released today by A.P.
3 attached and 6 inlined

and some more

Nice. If those service tunnels are on the same end as the SFPs, then all 4 units, 1-4 have the SFPs on the south side of the building and the equipment storage pool is on the north. The fuel handling machines would have been parked at the south end of the spent fuel pools, and unit 4s refueling could have been over the SFP. If there was fuel debris from SFP, it then should be coming out the south face of the buildings.

 

[curious11]

steam over water of SFP

I think the blurriness is caused more by the fact the debris is slumped into the water. It definitely appears more of a blur than a fade although it could just be down to the low resolution of the images.

 

[curie]

Astronuc,

If someone suspects they have inhaled plutonium, are there medical or radiological tests to confirm it ?

Rhody...

Faecal monitoring is one of the best methods, if not the most pleasant. Also urine monitoring & nasal swabs.

 

[artax]

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-193255-galleryV9-wbmd.jpg

so the hole blown in the south side of unit 4, is that above an SFP or to the side of it?

 

[curious11]

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-193255-galleryV9-wbmd.jpg

so the hole blown in the south side of unit 4, is that above an SFP or to the side of it?

Looks to be to the side to me...

 

[AtomicWombat]

Nice. If those service tunnels are on the same end as the SFPs, then all 4 units, 1-4 have the SFPs on the south side of the building and the equipment storage pool is on the north. The fuel handling machines would have been parked at the south end of the spent fuel pools, and unit 4s refueling could have been over the SFP. If there was fuel debris from SFP, it then should be coming out the south face of the buildings.

Two photos that seem to confirm this view.

The inside of reactor building number 4 in operation. The fuel handling machine is in the background and the trench to the SFP can be seen leading from the open reactor. The gantry crane is above to the rear.
[PLAIN]http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/event/598/486/75100052-file-photo.jpg

The outside after the explosion that seems to show the fuel handling machine from the other side:
[PLAIN]http://mainichi.jp/select/jiken/graph/20110327_2/5.jpg

The top image is from here:http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/8467550-online-breaking-news-nuclear-reactor-explosion/image/75100052-file-photo-of-the-inside-of-reactor-no-4-at-the-fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-plant-in"

 

[artax]

Looks to be to the side to me...

OK yes, so the SFP is to the right of the hole I agree, and the steam is coming from the SFP under the green crane pictured in the above post by AW. It would be nice to get diagrammes now of the fukushima plant and rooms/spaces inside reactors 1-4, with an overlay of the outer panels in relation.

 

[rhody]

Astronuc,

If someone suspects they have inhaled plutonium, are there medical or radiological tests to confirm it ?

Faecal monitoring is one of the best methods, if not the most pleasant. Also urine monitoring & nasal swabs.

Thanks curie,

So these methods can detect all radio-isotopes, (plutonium, cesium, etc...) in soft tissue, like the lung, thyroid, etc... ?

Rhody...

 

[TCups]

OK yes, so the SFP is to the right of the hole I agree, and the steam is coming from the SFP under the green crane pictured in the above post by AW. It would be nice to get diagrammes now of the fukushima plant and rooms/spaces inside reactors 1-4, with an overlay of the outer panels in relation.

Annotated from the AP Photos here:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3218801&postcount=2012

The red lines have been added as my interpretation of the level of the top floor (reactor access, top of SFP's). Compare damage above and below each reference line and damage to the roof, Buildings 3, 4.

South Elevation
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/SouthElevation.png

West Elevation
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/WestElevation.png

East Elevation
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/EastElevation.png

Top, down
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Top.png

 

[jensjakob]

Hi,

I think there are 3 levels of panels, so the red line should be one panel lower.

When I count on this picture
https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33707&d=1301478930
and this
http://b.bimg.dk/node-images/929/3/620x411-c/3929977-pix-fukushima-vrket.jpg
I get the 3 level of panels above work-floor.

B'regards
Jens Jakob

 

[rasherz]

Hi, long time listener, first time caller. I'm currently living in Japan, pretty far from danger but concerned about the water and food becoming contaminated. I don't want to sound political but, in today's press conference the TOEPC spokesman only mentioned iodine levels (good news because of the short half life), no mention of cesium. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

 

[|Fred]

Hi rasherz , Help from someone fluent in Japanese listening to the Tepco press point would be lovely , welcome to the thread .
I'm not sure that I can answer you question , but I would like to mention that tepco is mostly monitoring radiation in regards to the plants.

Heath related issue ie isotopes found in the air of cities in watter etc.. Is done by gov agency and non gov agency.. So the tepco press conference would not be in my opinion the best place to get info you are looking for.

 

[TCups]

Hi,

I think there are 3 levels of panels, so the red line should be one panel lower.

B'regards
Jens Jakob

Jens:

Three levels of panels where? At the top floor? I think there are two above, but could be wrong. Doesn't change the reference line with respect to comparison of damages above vs below, though, right? More damage in the lower sections of Bldg 4 with much less overall damage to the roof top of Bldg 4 the way I see it. Corrections?

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Top2Levels.png

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/SouthUnit4.png

Sure looks like the smoke/steam is coming from the floor above and the water is being sprayed at that level, too.

 

[AntonL]

Hi, long time listener, first time caller. I'm currently living in Japan, pretty far from danger but concerned about the water and food becoming contaminated. I don't want to sound political but, in today's press conference the TOEPC spokesman only mentioned iodine levels (good news because of the short half life), no mention of cesium. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

Iodine gets concentrated into your thyroid and is mored dangerous and where you have iodine you will also have cesium.

Cesium looks like potassium (thats why you get potassium-iodine tablets two in one) and is distributed throughout your body and like potassium, cesium is excreted from the body fairly quickly

but read about it here it is better explained
http://www.evs.anl.gov/pub/doc/Cesium.pdf
http://www.evs.anl.gov/pub/doc/Iodine.pdf
http://www.evs.anl.gov/pub/doc/Plutonium.pdf

and here is the complete list of all possible elements
http://www.evs.anl.gov/pub/doc/ANL_ContaminantFactSheets_All_070418.pdf

rasherz look after yourself and stay safe

 

[morningperson]

What's the problem with Tc-99m having 6 hour half life?

It means the Tc-99m was produced within six hours prior to detection.

 

[artax]

It means the Tc-99m was produced within six hours prior to detection.

sorry but it doesn't, it could have been produced up to many times the half life ago. it depends on your detectio limit and amount produced.
basically if 1kg was produced after 6hrs there'd be 1/2kg, then after six more 1/4 after 6more 1/8.
so after x half lives there's 1/(2^x) where ^ means to the power.

 

[rasherz]

Hi rasherz , Help from someone fluent in Japanese listening to the Tepco press point would be lovely , welcome to the thread .
I'm not sure that I can answer you question , but I would like to mention that tepco is mostly monitoring radiation in regards to the plants.

Heath related issue ie isotopes found in the air of cities in watter etc.. Is done by gov agency and non gov agency.. So the tepco press conference would not be in my opinion the best place to get info you are looking for.

I'm just living here, my Japanese is ok, but the technical vocabulary is a bit difficult to follow. Also to be honest, I'm getting better information from here. My wife is Japanese and I'm giving her updates based on what's on this forum, well ahead of the news. There's still a lot of smoke and mirrors going on. No mention on TV about the smoke coming from the second plant 12 kms south, as far as I know. It's hard to decide what's just sensationalism in the western media and what is being spoon fed to us by TOEPC a few days late. So far so good with this forum.
Thanks guys.

 

[jensjakob]

Jens:

Three levels of panels where? At the top floor? I think there are two above, but could be wrong. Doesn't change the reference line with respect to comparison of damages above vs below, though, right? More damage in the lower sections of Bldg 4 with much less overall damage to the roof top of Bldg 4 the way I see it. Corrections?

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Top2Levels.png

I would say 3 levels above groundfloor. 1 level standing on the west-side, 2 levels fallen to the ground.

Am searching all I can for pictures from inside - that can give the clues.

This picture shows 3 levels of panels, but it looks like it is a different construction (lighter) then #3 :-(
http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/03/14/74158-fukushima-daiichi-reactor.jpg

Allthough this image:
http://www.pmw.de/pm_online/data/PCP_deutsche-betonpumpe-fukushima-504x378.jpg
could support the theory that there are only 2 levels above the refueling deck

 

[artax]

yes unit one, the first to explode was smaller output and different wall design by the looks of things, where have they removed panels of unit 2 to avoid a future explosion like the others? is it the one in the side, quite low down? emanating steam? and is it above the fuel pool?

 

[TCups]

I would say 3 levels above groundfloor. 1 level standing on the west-side, 2 levels fallen to the ground.

Am searching all I can for pictures from inside - that can give the clues.

This picture shows 3 levels of panels, but it looks like it is a different construction (lighter) then #3 :-(
http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/03/14/74158-fukushima-daiichi-reactor.jpg

Jens:

I believe Units 3, 4 have two levels of concrete columns, reinforced, to bear the weight of the overhead crane. At 3, the north end wall has collapsed, and the crane fell below. I believe the original square hole on the north face of Bldg 4 was below the level of the reactor access floor.

 

[Astronuc]

Two panels sit above the reactor service floor according to https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3193009&postcount=305 (AtomicWombat, page 20, post #305). See also the ridge at the bottom of the two panels.

See also images:

Tcups, page 21, #330
various on page 23
jinxdone, page 24, #381
Tcups, page 29, #463

The third set of panels sit below the ridge and below the reactor service floor. A blast out at the third level could mean damage to the SFP.

 

[Gilles]

sorry but it doesn't, it could have been produced up to many times the half life ago. it depends on your detectio limit and amount produced.
basically if 1kg was produced after 6hrs there'd be 1/2kg, then after six more 1/4 after 6more 1/8.
so after x half lives there's 1/(2^x) where ^ means to the power.

and as I said it is a daughter nuclide of Mo-99, which has a longer half-life (66 h) so actually it rather tracks the presence of its parent. But still 66 h is a rather short period compared to 20 days.