Are all math professors conceited bigots?

[George Jones]

jimmy, if people don't get your jokes, you don't have to worry about being votedf PF's funniest member.

 

[George Jones]

I'm correcting the spelling for conceited, I can't take it anymore.

And the other typo?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

jimmy, if people don't get your jokes, you don't have to worry about being votedf PF's funniest member.

I call them bank jokes. Only the teller laughs.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm correcting the spelling for conceited, I can't take it anymore.

Can you fix "biggots" too? It looks like the opposite of little-ots.

 

[Evo]

And the other typo?

What typo? I don't see another typo...

Can you fix "biggots" too? It looks like the opposite of little-ots.

Shhhh. I don't want George to know I just fixed it.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Really, isn't it just that all professors are conceited? I mean, obviously they entered the profession for all of the glamor and adulation and so that they can be treated like royalty by university administrators.

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[Evo]

Really, isn't it just that all professors are conceited? I mean, obviously they entered the profession for all of the glamor and adulation and so that they can be treated like royalty by university administrators.

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Not to mention the high pay and private jets.

 

[maze]

Topher could you post a walkthrough of a single class taught by this guy - what topic, what examples and applicaitons were covered, what was proved, etc. eg: we started with this result, then went over and proved this theorem, then drew another diagram to explain the situation, and looked at these examples ...

 

[wolram]

Maths is the new snobbery, it used to be if one did not know latin one was an idiot, but be honest , how has maths improved your life, your understanding of the universe.

 

[kodiakghost]

Haha. Thus far it has pretty much ruined mine. With a math degree, I can make just as much money as I made years ago with my high school diploma working in computers. I really should have majored in engineering. But who knows... maybe it's not too late to go back.

 

[OrbitalPower]

I actually prefer it when math professors do not come up with their own "notes" and/or print outs for the class while using their own application problems, and try and follow the textbooks as closely as possible instead while explaining the proofs.

Calc I at my University is taught solely from notes in many of the classes - the book isn't even needed, the homework problems are off webworks. If you go to the "Rate my Professors" page for my University and look up certain math professors, students even note that they did not use the textbook. Some courses the textbook is provided and written by the professor in PDF form; I call them pseudo-textbooks. CS 3100, the beginnings of theoretical computer science, is an example. This doesn't end at the lower division courses, either.

I'd actually prefer using textbooks that are written by teachers instead of notes/psuedo-textbooks written by my University professors. And what's the point of doing application problems by example if you don't know what you're doing? Learning by example alone is a good way to become a bad mathematician. Plus, such "application problems" are as dull as the artificial ones if you're new to the subject.

Such "learning" is based more on trial and error rather than by accumulation of knowledge and then application, but different people have different methods of learning.

 

[kodiakghost]

I think professors do students a disservice when they teach from their own notes or their own textbook. There's a definite advantage to having two separate perspectives - one from the professor and one from the author of the textbook. If those two people happen to be the same, then you've definitely lost something in the mix.

 

[Proton Soup]

My university has only one math professor that I actually like and I will only take math courses taught by that one professor. This is because he teaches mathematics from an engineers standpoint by providing a lot of examples and application problems. He teaches this way because he is not a mathematician but an actual engineer himself. But because he only teaches mathematics courses he is filed under the math department.

I am currently taking an advanced mathematics for engineers course that he is currently teaching and recently found out that the rest of the math department is trying to get him ousted. They say that he is not fit to be a professor and that he should resign from his position. Their main argument for this is that he has only about a 20% failure rate compared to the 70% failure rate of the rest of the math department(I'm not exaggerating) so his classes aren't difficult enough. They also say that he wastes to much time with example and application problems and doesn't spend enough time on proofs. They also say that he shouldn't be teaching from his notes but off the top of his head and should only cover the material that is in the book (we cover things that are not in the book). This just seems completely *** backwards to me in every way but I have noticed this type of behavior from the majority of the math department since I transferred here.

The professor in question has done a lot of significant work in the field of finite element analysis and has published many papers and a book on the subject. He also has decades of industrial experience at institutions like NASA. So who the hell are these mathematicians to say that he isn't qualified to teach engineering math classes when they can't even get half of their classes to pass? Is there some way that the students can petition against the math department?

y'know, i mostly came here to tell you i loved the title of the thread, but now that I've read your rant i do have some genuine concern.

if you really want to cause a stink, then get some students together and bring up ABET accreditation to the administration. this will get back to the engineering department darn quick. the problem is, engineering uses applied maths as it is an applied math discipline. and if you're going to teach engineering, you've got to teach applied math. if not by the math department, then by engineering. if the math professors aren't careful, they will deep-six the whole engineering dept. so unless they want to put the courses together and teach it themselves, they need to think more carefully about this. i don't think the administration would like their outcome.

 

[SticksandStones]

Maths is the new snobbery, it used to be if one did not know latin one was an idiot, but be honest , how has maths improved your life, your understanding of the universe.

Ever since combinatorics I try to make graphs out of everything I see :(

I think there should be a support group out there for such problems.

 

[JasonRox]

You're forgetting Fermat, Newton, Gauss, and I'm sure a ton of others. Together with Cauchy, these personalities have been very important in the development of mathematics and science. Do you have respect for them?

Gauss was anti-social and he did help Mr. Leblanc.

I don't have respect for them as people. For the work they did, yes, but that's it.

 

[NeoDevin]

I think professors do students a disservice when they teach from their own notes or their own textbook. There's a definite advantage to having two separate perspectives - one from the professor and one from the author of the textbook. If those two people happen to be the same, then you've definitely lost something in the mix.

You don't know how to use a library?

 

[kodiakghost]

You don't know how to use a library?

My post was an objective criticism. Your post was just you being an *******.

 

[Hootenanny]

I think professors do students a disservice when they teach from their own notes or their own textbook. There's a definite advantage to having two separate perspectives - one from the professor and one from the author of the textbook. If those two people happen to be the same, then you've definitely lost something in the mix.

I'm afraid I disagree with you there. So you expect a professor to base his/her lectures on someone else's text or lecture course simply to offer an alternative perspective?

Actually, hang on a minute: if the lecturer is basing his/her course on someone else's notes or text, then both your lecture notes and the course text will have only one perspective - namely that of the author of the course text?

My post was an objective criticism. Your post was just you being an *******.

No it wasn't. NeoDevin's comment was legitimate - if you want other perspective on the course then you're going to have to do a little work yourself. I'm sure your professor will be happy to recommend alternative texts.

And watch your language.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

I really have to agree with kodiakghost. For a professor to use one of their own classes as an opportunity to sell copies of their own book is a complete conflict of interest to me. You better be a really good author to force an effectively captive audience to buy copies of your own book.

I had some professors who compiled a combination of their own notes and material from public domain sources, had the university print shop print and bind it, and then had the book store sell it at cost. That seems okay to me.

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[cristo]

I really have to agree with kodiakghost. For a professor to use one of their own classes as an opportunity to sell copies of their own book is a complete conflict of interest to me. You better be a really good author to force an effectively captive audience to buy copies of your own book.

Why would a professor use a different text if he has written a book himself on the exact same topic? That's just like saying "I've written a book on topic X, but it's terrible, so we'll use someone else's"

I had some professors who compiled a combination of their own notes and material from public domain sources, had the university print shop print and bind it, and then had the book store sell it at cost. That seems okay to me.

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How is that ok? You do realize that textbooks written by professors are for the most part, just culminations of notes they've written for classes in the past, don't you?I don't see the problem with someone using their own textbooks as the set text. After all, students are expected to read around their subject, and not just learn from one textbook anyway.

 

[arildno]

I'm correcting the spelling for conceited, I can't take it anymore.

Thank you, dearest!
It was an example of utterly revolting spelling.

 

[JasonRox]

I really have to agree with kodiakghost. For a professor to use one of their own classes as an opportunity to sell copies of their own book is a complete conflict of interest to me. You better be a really good author to force an effectively captive audience to buy copies of your own book.

I had some professors who compiled a combination of their own notes and material from public domain sources, had the university print shop print and bind it, and then had the book store sell it at cost. That seems okay to me.

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So the prof. gets no profit for spending hours writing it out? Did you ever try writing pages and pages in LaTeX to write a paper or explain something? It takes forever.

 

[morphism]

Why would a professor use a different text if he has written a book himself on the exact same topic? That's just like saying "I've written a book on topic X, but it's terrible, so we'll use someone else's"

Moreover, what if there is no other textbook that covers the course material?

 

[CaptainQuasar]

How is that ok?

Because it's not a conflict of interest.

So the prof. gets no profit for spending hours writing it out? Did you ever try writing pages and pages in LaTeX to write a paper or explain something? It takes forever.

Yeah, he can receive profit from sale of the book - but in cases where other professors, preferably professors who are not his buddies, are choosing that textbook because it's a high quality scholarly work. In all the classes I had where the professor assigned his own book the book was either considerably crappier than, or rarely at best equal to, the textbooks I could find in the library on the same topic. And in some cases it was much crappier than a fifty-year-old public domain textbook that would have cost nothing if distributed digitally, or substantially less than a copyrighted bound book if a few relevant sections were photocopied.

(Anything written before 1963 where the author did not renew the copyright registration is public domain. Only 10% or so of all eligible works had their registrations renewed in time. I was an undergrad math major, so there were definitely lots of old books that worked absolutely fine. Same with things like philosophy and many history courses.)

It's a conflict of interest for him to profit simply because he's in a position to force his students to buy the book. It's like the mayor of a town just happening to give construction contracts to local companies she owns equity in.

The one exception I might look less skeptically at is if it's a very specialized topic and the professor's book is the only one available that's directly pertinent. But even then it's really not kosher to use your position for profit that way.

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[cristo]

Because it's not a conflict of interest.

Sorry, it's nonsensical to think that the one case is a conflict of interest, but that the other isn't. There is absolutely no difference between a professor writing a textbook and setting it as the text for a course and a professor giving a collection of his notes to the university bookshop for them to reproduce and sell to the students in order to study for the course. Whether or not he includes "material from public domain sources" is irrelevant: no-one owns the copyright to, for example, the quadratic formula.

Suppose there is no set text for a specific course (I've had many courses like this). Is it then a "conflict of interest" for the professor to teach from his own lecture notes? Again, textbooks are, for the most part, a culmination of previous lecture notes that people have written for their courses, so why does it make any difference if they sell these notes or not?

Again, students are expected to read more than one book per course. If the students do as they are expected, then any possible "conflict of interest" is removed anyway!

 

[SticksandStones]

Most math professors are alright. I mean I wouldn't take them to parties nor would I make one my wingman if I was flirting with a playboy playmate. But I'd definitely let them share my whiskey as long as they agreed not to talk about math all night.

This is funny because one of my math professors (actually the only pure-maths professor at my school) dated a super model for some time.

Math professors can be deceivingly awesome at times.

 

[WarPhalange]

I've had one math professor that was a really cool guy, and another who lectured to the board, but was still a cool person. I don't know, maybe it's just your department.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Sorry, it's nonsensical to think that the one case is a conflict of interest, but that the other isn't. There is absolutely no difference between a professor writing a textbook and setting it as the text for a course and a professor giving a collection of his notes to the university bookshop for them to reproduce and sell to the students in order to study for the course. Whether or not he includes "material from public domain sources" is irrelevant: no-one owns the copyright to, for example, the quadratic formula.

The difference is that in one case the professor personally profits from it and in the other he doesn't. In a couple of those courses I took it was pretty evident that there was no other way the professor was going to be able to get his book sold.

...so why does it make any difference if they sell these notes or not?

To repeat: I have not said anything like "professors must not sell their notes." I've said that it's a conflict of interest for a professor to publish a book and bump up the sales figures by requiring his own students to buy it for his own classes.

And actually, if the only way he can sell his book is by requiring his own students to buy it, not only is it a conflict of interest but he's ripping them off too because a book that won't sell on its own is not worth the price charged for it. He ought to write a better damn book, not cheat by forcing it on a captive audience. His students can't get better grades for crappy papers they write that way, can they?

And yeah, so requiring students to buy a bunch of other books along with your own isn't some way to mask this.

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[Proton Soup]

The difference is that in one case the professor personally profits from it and in the other he doesn't. In a couple of those courses I took it was pretty evident that there was no other way the professor was going to be able to get his book sold.



To repeat: I have not said anything like "professors must not sell their notes." I've said that it's a conflict of interest for a professor to publish a book and bump up the sales figures by requiring his own students to buy it for his own classes.

And actually, if the only way he can sell his book is by requiring his own students to buy it, not only is it a conflict of interest but he's ripping them off too because a book that won't sell on its own is not worth the price charged for it. He ought to write a better damn book, not cheat by forcing it on a captive audience. His students can't get better grades for crappy papers they write that way, can they?

And yeah, so requiring students to buy a bunch of other books along with your own isn't some way to mask this.

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i had an engineering professor that wrote his own textbooks. full of errors and handwritten equations, photocopied with a cheap spiral binding. and the students hated his books. and he hated the students for it. there were maybe 4 or 5 courses like this. by the time you got to his last course, Control Systems, he decides to pay everyone back by not using the course textbook that came assigned to the course. instead, he uses his own notes, only this time he doesn't sell his "book" to the students. so you spend all your time in class furiously copying notes from his book pages he's converted into transparencies. he was a really sharp guy that knew his stuff. he was old school and had worked on Polaris. you got the impression he would've known Bode. but he was also bitter and resentful and it compromised his ability to teach.

 

[Cyrus]

i had an engineering professor that wrote his own textbooks. full of errors and handwritten equations, photocopied with a cheap spiral binding. and the students hated his books. and he hated the students for it. there were maybe 4 or 5 courses like this. by the time you got to his last course, Control Systems, he decides to pay everyone back by not using the course textbook that came assigned to the course. instead, he uses his own notes, only this time he doesn't sell his "book" to the students. so you spend all your time in class furiously copying notes from his book pages he's converted into transparencies. he was a really sharp guy that knew his stuff. he was old school and had worked on Polaris. you got the impression he would've known Bode. but he was also bitter and resentful and it compromised his ability to teach.

Did you say transparencies? who the hell uses that anymore?

Back in undergrad physics III, I had professor who would use those and an old PROJECTOR to show movies of things like propgation of waves in water. It was like attending school in 1960s. Too bad our O-scopes were also pieces of JUNK from god knows when.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

* Hands Cyrus a mimeograph of the course syllabus. *

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[Cyrus]

Here is my office phone number class.

And if you can't reach me here is my pager and fax number.

BEEEEEEEEEE RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPPPPPPPPPP BEE-YONGGG BEE--YONNNGG

chhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk....WELCOME

Its amazing (and great!) that AOL is gone from the face of the planet earth.

 

[Proton Soup]

Did you say transparencies? who the hell uses that anymore?

Back in undergrad physics III, I had professor who would use those and an old PROJECTOR to show movies of things like propgation of waves in water. It was like attending school in 1960s. Too bad our O-scopes were also pieces of JUNK from god knows when.

did i mention that we also did pole-zero analysis with Spirules? this was back in the 90s. we were just getting into the era of computer projections of things like powerpoint.

 

[Cyrus]

did i mention that we also did pole-zero analysis with Spirules? this was back in the 90s. we were just getting into the era of computer projections of things like powerpoint.

I feel so sorry for you.......probably all to familiar with routh tables.

I just go, type type type, MATLAB!

 

[Proton Soup]

I feel so sorry for you.......probably all to familiar with routh tables.

I just go, type type type, MATLAB!

i honestly don't remember much of it. i did much better with digital stuff and Matlab in some grad courses.