Are Horoscopes Truly Reflective of Reality?

[Gokul43201]

How important is the time of birth ? And how sensitive to the time is the accuracy of the chart ? Even if this system is intrinsically flawless, would there not be a large number of incorrect readings for people born in the 60s and 70s because of the changes in the standard time scales and calendars (even assumng all hospital clocks were synchronized to GMT or some established standard) ?

Both time scales and calendars (see BobG's related posts in GD and Brain Teasers) were so wrong during most of this time, that really, anyone born between 1967 and 1977 doesn't know really when he/she was born. So would it be unwise/unethical to draw up a horoscope for any such person ?

 

[0TheSwerve0]

How important is the time of birth ? And how sensitive to the time is the accuracy of the chart ? Even if this system is intrinsically flawless, would there not be a large number of incorrect readings for people born in the 60s and 70s because of the changes in the standard time scales and calendars (even assumng all hospital clocks were synchronized to GMT or some established standard) ?

Both time scales and calendars (see BobG's related posts in GD and Brain Teasers) were so wrong during most of this time, that really, anyone born between 1967 and 1977 doesn't know really when he/she was born. So would it be unwise/unethical to draw up a horoscope for any such person ?

Time of birth creates the divisions for the cusps of the houses and the angles (1st, 4th, 7th, 10th house cusp). You can still interpret planets in signs and aspects (the Moon is the fastest moving but still stays within one sign for about a day). But yes, it is a big part of synthesizing a chart, but not a total loss. In that case, I guess you'd have to ask someone who was there wearing their own watch.

Example, You know you have your Moon in Aquarius but since you don't know the house it is in, you won't know which affairs the Moon is concerned with. If you did know your exact time, and found out your Moon was in the 9th house, you'd know your Moon (emotions, unconscious self, comfort) are tied to travel, higher learning, foreign lands, new encounters/ideas/cultures (the 9th house affairs). But even without this you could still interpret how the Moon deals with Aquarian energy.

 

[loseyourname]

Who invented the natal chart and astrology? How was it invented and by what means? I don't understand how a celestial body can suddenly influence you at the time of birth. So the moment your head finds air out of your mom a few stars rain some power down on you and you can now be decribed by a natal chart? I am very confused.

You know, I had these same questions, and according to Swerve, it isn't the celestial body that influences your tendencies. It's really just the time and location that you are in when born, based upon some principle that cycles of the heavens mimic cycles in the behavioral tendencies of human beings (something to do with the connectedness of person and nature that Kerrie speaks of). This allows names based on the presence of a certain constellation to be used to describe a particular class of behavioral tendencies, but the correlation of constellation and tendency is only incidental, not causal.

I still don't really understand it. The main issue I see is that even if we were to believe that tendencies can be imparted solely by temporal-spatial location, it still seems to me that they should be imparted at the time of conception, not at birth. Birth just seems so arbitrary. Why would I have had different tendencies had I not been born premature? Either way, every chart I've seen her do has been pretty good and she actually has helped me to understand certain things about myself.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

You know, I had these same questions, and according to Swerve, it isn't the celestial body that influences your tendencies. It's really just the time and location that you are in when born, based upon some principle that cycles of the heavens mimic cycles in the behavioral tendencies of human beings (something to do with the connectedness of person and nature that Kerrie speaks of). This allows names based on the presence of a certain constellation to be used to describe a particular class of behavioral tendencies, but the correlation of constellation and tendency is only incidental, not causal.

I still don't really understand it. The main issue I see is that even if we were to believe that tendencies can be imparted solely by temporal-spatial location, it still seems to me that they should be imparted at the time of conception, not at birth. Birth just seems so arbitrary. Why would I have had different tendencies had I not been born premature? Either way, every chart I've seen her do has been pretty good and she actually has helped me to understand certain things about myself.

Here's the text for that info

 

[Kerrie]

The main issue I see is that even if we were to believe that tendencies can be imparted solely by temporal-spatial location, it still seems to me that they should be imparted at the time of conception, not at birth. Birth just seems so arbitrary. Why would I have had different tendencies had I not been born premature? Either way, every chart I've seen her do has been pretty good and she actually has helped me to understand certain things about myself.

the actual birth is used because that is the moment a person is breathing on their own and thus separate from their mother...think about it: a fetus is completely reliant on their mother until the cord is cut and they begin breathing on their own...

 

[Kerrie]

Here's the text for that info

ahh yes, I do enjoy Kevin Burk Swerve...I highly recommend his books to those who have a unbiased curiosity to astrology...

 

[Andromeda321]

I don't believe in astrology. If anyone must know why, it's a simple reason: my twin brother. We were born within minutes of each other so we should be pretty much the same, right? Well guess what, we're not: he's off in a warm state studying business and partying more then he should while I'm freezing next to a Great Lake studying physics with no inclination to go partying every Friday. Other then a striking similarity you normally don't get in fraternal twins and a similar upbringing we're not the same at all.
If that's not enough for you I knew two girls who were identical twins born a mere two minutes apart. One died suddenly a few years ago and the other has gone on with a very furfilling life. Now they would've had the same sign, birthdate, cusp, and anything else you can think up but their lives played out in completely different ways. Just shows how little bearing it all really has on a person's life.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

One astrologer compared one's natal as the deck of cards you are dealt, it's up to you how you play. Other things still influence you: parents, individual experiences, genes, etc. Even if you had the exact same life, there is no guarantee that you would turn out the same. You are still different people, you just have the same influences working on you. Do you know if you have the same ascendant and house cusps? That could change within minutes, but it isn't likely if it was say 2 or 3 minutes.

Edit: http://www.twinstuff.com/astrology3.html
Also, by Kevin Burk
http://www.astro-horoscopes.com/HTML/AskKevin/990223b.html
http://www.astro-horoscopes.com/HTML/AskKevin/021006b.html
http://www.astro-horoscopes.com/HTML/AskKevin/961231.html

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Saint, are you sure your time of birth was 6:15 am and not rounded off? Just want to be sure.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Hey, your profile says you were born in '77. This isn't a ploy to mess up my predictions is it?

 

[Kerrie]

I don't believe in astrology. If anyone must know why, it's a simple reason: my twin brother. We were born within minutes of each other so we should be pretty much the same, right? Well guess what, we're not: he's off in a warm state studying business and partying more then he should while I'm freezing next to a Great Lake studying physics with no inclination to go partying every Friday. Other then a striking similarity you normally don't get in fraternal twins and a similar upbringing we're not the same at all.
If that's not enough for you I knew two girls who were identical twins born a mere two minutes apart. One died suddenly a few years ago and the other has gone on with a very furfilling life. Now they would've had the same sign, birthdate, cusp, and anything else you can think up but their lives played out in completely different ways. Just shows how little bearing it all really has on a person's life.

astrology is not meant to predict your exact identity...this is the biggest misconception of it.

another misconception among hard core skeptics is they try to apply the scientific method to astrology, thus it is doomed to fail in their eyes.

ASTROLOGY IS NOT A SCIENCE AND IT DOES NOT CLAIM TO BE astrology is a guide or tool into understanding the human psyche in relation to the large bodies of celestial mass...it is a study of these cycles.

 

[loseyourname]

If that's not enough for you I knew two girls who were identical twins born a mere two minutes apart. One died suddenly a few years ago and the other has gone on with a very furfilling life. Now they would've had the same sign, birthdate, cusp, and anything else you can think up but their lives played out in completely different ways. Just shows how little bearing it all really has on a person's life.

It's worth noting here that identical twins also share a common genome, yet they are fully capable of living different lives and even having a great deal of behavioral dissimilarities. Still, no one discounts that genetics plays a role in shaping the human person.

In response to Kerrie's justification of sun signs being imparted at birth rather than at conception, I can see what you mean about separating for the first time from the mother. Having a separate blood stream and a separate source of oxygen and all that just, by itself, doesn't seem enough. It sounds more symbolic than anything. So I suppose my question becomes: What is it symbolic of? Is there some kind of psychic connection between mother and fetus being postulated during the natal period that inhibits individual personality development? Is this then broken, allowing the child to develop an individual personality, only at birth?

 

[Kerrie]

In response to Kerrie's justification of sun signs being imparted at birth rather than at conception, I can see what you mean about separating for the first time from the mother. Having a separate blood stream and a separate source of oxygen and all that just, by itself, doesn't seem enough. It sounds more symbolic than anything. So I suppose my question becomes: What is it symbolic of? Is there some kind of psychic connection between mother and fetus being postulated during the natal period that inhibits individual personality development? Is this then broken, allowing the child to develop an individual personality, only at birth?

astrology assumes that, once the child is breathing on their own without any sort of reliance upon their mother for life, the child then has "free will"...your words "allowing the child to develop an individual personality" is this free will being excercised...the time of birth shows (or natal chart) shows the strengths and weaknesses this individual may harbor during their life..

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Kerrie, you may remember that I posted a news story that cited new evidence that some diseases appear to be linked to one's date of birth. That link is dead but I found a couple of other references. I found this to be interesting and worth comparing to some astsrological claims. I also like to consider that with systems like Astrology, something might be true or partly true, but it is believed to be true for all of the wrong reasons. Anyway, FYI.

Birthday in March, April, May, or June? You have a higher risk for MS.
http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=48

Birthday link to coeliac condition
http://www.glutafin.co.uk/en/article.asp?chco_id=47

 

[Saint]

what is natal chart? where can i get it?

 

[Kerrie]

Kerrie, you may remember that I posted a news story that cited new evidence that some diseases appear to be linked to one's date of birth. That link is dead but I found a couple of other references. I found this to be interesting and worth comparing to some astsrological claims. I also like to consider that with systems like Astrology, something might be true or partly true, but it is believed to be true for all of the wrong reasons. Anyway, FYI.

Birthday in March, April, May, or June? You have a higher risk for MS.
http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=48

Birthday link to coeliac condition
http://www.glutafin.co.uk/en/article.asp?chco_id=47

very interesting reads...i would be curious to know if those born in the southern hemisphere have these conditions exactly 6 months later (or earlier). these articles "expressed" that environment was more of a factor then astrology itself (which i can certainly buy), and the astrological influence was very general as oppossed to more specific.

i don't think that many skeptics understand just how specific astrology truly is. they buy into the month the sun was in a certain position can tell you what a great lover you are. instead, you have all planets in relation to the earth, in relation to one another which is hundreds of translations of aspects to look at and understand. what the astrologist does with all of these translations is find the "theme" of them, what they all are tending to express about the person, whether they be a positive or negative quality. that intepretation of these aspects is the hardest part about being objective of astrology. thus, why astrology is truly called "The Study of Cycles".

in my opinion, the fine art of astrology is much more deeper then science is able to probe into at this current time of our understanding.

another point many skeptics don't know is the greatest past astronomers who have set a foundation for the knowledge today also had an understanding of astrology. take johannes kepler~a very accomplished astrologer that observed a triple conjunction of mars, jupiter, & saturn that happens every 800 years-and he concluded that this was perhaps the "star of bethlehem" because that was right about the time this had suppossedly happened. tycho brahe, another well known astronomer was able to predict outbreaks of plagues using astronomical placements.

unfortunately, astrology has been degraded to nothing more then a fortune telling scheme that gets hardly any respect or research. this is why when a skeptic makes the claim that astrology is BS, I dare them to read an astrology textbook (such as the ones swerve and i have recommended) so that their opinion is less biased. those who understand it have put the time forth and understand the depths of it...those who use it as a fortune telling scheme are no better then the ignorant skeptics crying BS.

 

[Kerrie]

what is natal chart? where can i get it?

saint, have you been reading any of this?

 

[Gokul43201]

saint, have you been reading any of this?

Frustrating, isn't it ?

 

[Saint]

i get it from here,
http://www.alabe.com/freechart/

who can interpret it

 

[Saint]

will i be millionaire one day or not?

 

[check]

will i be millionaire one day or not?

Jeez, give it up, Saint. There are more important things in life than money.

 

[Evo]

Saint, 0TheSwerve0 was nice enough to do your chart already. I will look back to see if she interpreted it for you.

For starters, here's your chart Saint

I'm presently worming out all the secrets from it

edit: Saint, she had some questions for you. Maybe if you ask her very nicely, she may do it for you.

 

[Moonbear]

Saint, on the chart you found for yourself, you have your time of birth listed as 6:05 AM, and before you said it was 6:15 AM. According to TheSwerve, having the correct time makes a difference, so make sure you gave her the right information before she can help you interpret it.

However, if you read what Kerrie and TheSwerve posted, you'd already know they can't tell you whether you'll be a millionaire from your chart.

Would you be more likely to be believe them if they told you yes?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I can't get past the notion that Astrology is a mapping of highly complex cycles. By chance alone it is likely to coincide with many other cycles in nature.

 

[Saint]

i will check my birth certificate for my exact time of birth

 

[Kerrie]

I can't get past the notion that Astrology is a mapping of highly complex cycles. By chance alone it is likely to coincide with many other cycles in nature.

IMO, astrological charts are a picture of the cycles of nature within life itself.

 

[Saint]

i was born at 6:37am

this is the natal chart

 

[0TheSwerve0]

You've even got a giant fish in your chart! Ok, I thought there was something strange about your chart (astrologer's intuition ).

Really synthesizing and interpreting would take me forever, plus I'm out of practice and don't know you personally (it helps to know someone, easier to explain how the themes are manifested).

So, some key themes at a glance:

Ok forget that, I'm way too thorough.

Basic temperment: Preponderance of fire and water.
(from Kevin Burk's understanding the natal chart
The energy of fire represents the energy of life and of spirit. Fire is outgoing, energizing, and transforming, and the most self-motivated of the elements. Fire signs are concerned with the question of identity, and they also tend to be more action-oriented than the other elements. Fire signs are intense: they usually radiate great warmth and light, but in close quarters, they can also burn. Fire signs have a tendency to follow a train of thought rather than sticking with one idea or concept and seeing it through to completion. Fire sign are very prone to intense emotions; however, the emotions that fire signs are most comfortable with are either intense joy or intense anger. Fire is also a very masculine, one-pointed energy in that it has a strong "all or nothing" tendency. An important lesson for fire signs to learn is moderation. Fire signs are extremely honest. It never occurs to them to express anything other than their true nature, and they have little tolerance for dishonesty in others.

Second, a preponderance of water:
Water signs operate entirely on the level of feelings-but not just any feelings. The element of water relates to our deepest, most primal emotions, as well as to the needs and longings of our soul. Water signs seek to make connections on deep, transformational levels. Water signs are the most comfortable with any kind of emotion, so long as it is intense. Something that water shares with fire is a tendency to exaggerate and to be overly dramatic.

Ascendant = approach to the world and how others see you upon first meeting
With a Pisces Ascendant, your approach to the world will be very right-brained due to Pisces motivation to explore the inherent connections and universal truths in the world. Pisces is intuitive so you may understand things without any rational explanation. Pisces is also concerned with absorbing and transmuting the pain of other people, so the world for you will be a place that you desire to heal. Also, your Sun is conjunct (0°apart) your Ascendant which will influence how people see you and how you approach the world. Since the Sun is always straightforward (what you see is what you get), you will be seen (at least initially to those who don't know you very well) as enthusiastic, single-minded, driven to create and to be recognized. People with this aspect want to shape the world in their vision (yours would be a Piscean vision of universal love, healing, etc)

Descendant = relationships, partnerships, the types of people you are attracted to (friends and lovers)
Conversly, your Virgo Descendant indicates that you are attracted to people that are left-brained - logical, analytical, practical. You will be attracted to someone that will ground you and provide a rational base in your life.
Also, Pluto conjuncts your Descendants so your partnerships (not just romantic) will tend to be destructive and transformational (e.g. civil rights movement destroyed old, unhelpful concepts). This also indicates that you are attracted to powerful people that have the ability to impact and perhaps transform you in profound ways.

Planets
You've got most of your personal planets (Sun-Mars) in eastern (left) hemisphere of the chart. These planets will tend to be more self-reliant, self-initiating, and active. The Also, the majority of your persona planets are in the in the northern (bottom) hemisphere. These planets will tend to be more introverted and private in their expression.

Aspect Patterns:
Stellium (3+ planets in conjunction)
Moon conjunct Saturn conjunct Venus in 1st house, in Aries.
You will have a very strong emphasis on and experience of Arian energy.
[Aries has an overwhelming need to express its true self. Aries energy is about breaking away from the collective consciousness of Pisces to create an individual identity. Aries is a trailblazer, a leader, and is not comfortable with being led or limited by others. Being so very concerned with creating its own identity, Aries rarely notices that others too have a unique idenity. Aries gets so absorbed in its own wonderful self that it doesn't take other people into consideration and can unintentionally run others over in a hurry to manifest itself. Lesson to learn: take others into consideration]

These planets are close enough in conjunction that they will act as a sort of unit. E.G. If your Moon is deciding on it's course of action, it will have to take into account Saturn and Venus before it can settle on any action and will feel the need to express the functions of all the planets. Say, every time you express your emotions, you feel the need to judge whether these emotions are justifiable within the limits and rules you live by (Saturn, ways we take responsibility, rules and limits we live by) as well as the need to express your values (Venus, shows the things that are of importance to you).
The affairs of the first house will also be of importance to you, where this stellium is located. Namely, you. You're appearance, things that make up your personality.

Career
As for a career/work, we look to the 2nd house of finances and possessions, the 6th house of daily routines and activities in the physical world, and the 10th house of public appearances.

-2nd House, ruled by Aries (Mars in Sagittarius in this case): You make money through aggressive, assertive, daring action. Being ruled by Mars in Sagittarius in the 9th, you may make money through travel or philsophical pursuits.
-6th House, ruled by Leo (Sun in Pisces): Your daily activities are centered around your ego/central drive. Being tied to the 1st House of Pisces, I could say that maybe your daily routine is about expressing and influencing people. -10th House, ruled by Sagittarius (Jupiter in Libra): Your public appearance or appearance to the world at large is of a broad-minded, social, generous, and curious person. This is tied to Jupiter in the 7th (one-to-one relationships). Hmmm, how are these tied? You could find a partner (romantic or otherwise) that contributes to your public appearance or you may attract a partner through your public appearance. Also, with Jupiter in Libra ruling this, your private relationships may be open to public viewing.

*So, the themes seem to be that you are a dramatic dreamer that spends his/her days contemplating himself/herself and running people over.

That'll be $120 please

 

[franznietzsche]

Fire is also a very masculine, one-pointed energy in that it has a strong "all or nothing" tendency.

Immoral or not, ya?

An important lesson for fire signs to learn is moderation. Fire signs are extremely honest. It never occurs to them to express anything other than their true nature, and they have little tolerance for dishonesty in others.

Last part sounds like Saint. No tolerance for that sillyness that is immorality/dishonesty/sexual urges...

Second, a preponderance of water:
...Something that water shares with fire is a tendency to exaggerate and to be overly dramatic...

Wow, you almost wouldn't have to know who she was talking about to know who it was...

...Pisces is intuitive so you may understand things without any rational explanation...

Oh boy... I'm not going to touch that one...

...You will be attracted to someone that will ground you and provide a rational base in your life.

By rational do you mean monetary?

...This also indicates that you are attracted to powerful people that have the ability to impact and perhaps transform you in profound ways.

Like give him lots of money?

...Aries has an overwhelming need to express its true self. Aries energy is about breaking away from the collective consciousness of Pisces to create an individual identity. Aries is a trailblazer, a leader, and is not comfortable with being led or limited by others.

Well he certainly is his own man...

Career
As for a career/work, we look to the 2nd house of finances and possessions, the 6th house of daily routines and activities in the physical world, and the 10th house of public appearances.

I could have told you that for free. Then you wouldn't be $120 farther from your many millions.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

*ahem* booya booya booya!

 

[franznietzsche]

*ahem* booya booya booya!

What, did you win the lottery?

 

[Kerrie]

Immoral or not, ya?...
I could have told you that for free. Then you wouldn't be $120 farther from your many millions.

no, fire signs are not immoral...there is no judgement passed in astrology. if there is, you are being taken...

and franz, please realize the work and effort that swerve put into this. sure, you could have said it without doing the chart, but the point here is Saint's chart does match his personality traits he displays in this forum, hence the question how accurate can be horoscopes. thank you for proving it

 

[franznietzsche]

no, fire signs are not immoral...there is no judgement passed in astrology. if there is, you are being taken...

Actually that statement was about Saint declaring many things to be immoral, not that he is immoral. The 'all or nothing' atttitude mentioned made me think of that 'trait' of his.

and franz, please realize the work and effort that swerve put into this. sure, you could have said it without doing the chart, but the point here is Saint's chart does match his personality traits he displays in this forum, hence the question how accurate can be horoscopes. thank you for proving it

Actually i was just making jokes and picking out the parts that made me chuckle. And i twisted the wording of just about every quote, so how I'm supporting this i don't know, because i could just as easily have twisted the wording differently.

 

[Moonbear]

Hey, Saint, maybe you should learn more about astrology so you can read those charts yourself. It might get you closer to those millions than whatever you're doing now. At $120 a pop for an amateur reading (I'm assuming amature TheSwerve, based on your other comments here, no offense intended by that), imagine how much you could earn with more practice!

Kerrie or TheSwerve, I'm going to ask to clarify something that was brought up earlier. Someone had indicated skepticism about how the alignment of a handful a known planets at the moment of their birth could affect them during their lifetime. I admit to being similarly skeptical about this. Why at birth? Why not the alignment of the planets when I turned 13 or 16 or 21 or 30? Do natal charts change every year with the events that have occurred in the previous year? Otherwise, I don't understand why the alignment of planets in that one minute of time could be so much more important than any other time in life.

 

[Saint]

Ascendant = approach to the world and how others see you upon first meeting
With a Pisces Ascendant, your approach to the world will be very right-brained due to Pisces motivation to explore the inherent connections and universal truths in the world. Pisces is intuitive so you may understand things without any rational explanation. Pisces is also concerned with absorbing and transmuting the pain of other people, so the world for you will be a place that you desire to heal. Also, your Sun is conjunct (0°apart) your Ascendant which will influence how people see you and how you approach the world. Since the Sun is always straightforward (what you see is what you get), you will be seen (at least initially to those who don't know you very well) as enthusiastic, single-minded, driven to create and to be recognized. People with this aspect want to shape the world in their vision (yours would be a Piscean vision of universal love, healing, etc)

could be accurate